Marth Metagame Thread

[Albert.]

...

Why are you being stubborn? What are we even arguing about? Dtilt kills at 130, and it's NOT improbable that you might find yourself in that danger danger close zone and BOTH Ftilt and UTilt are stale, so he uses the move that you forgot about.

and then you're dead lol.

 

[Megavitamins]

can someone pleeeeez tell me wat a frame trap is

Basically, if they don't air dodge, they get hit. If they air dodge, they get hit out of air dodge.

A good example is MK u-air, if you air dodge it, you get hit with nair.

 

[Blacknight99923]

@above arguement

well here is data of Ally snake against DEHF and M2K


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278186 Breaking down Ally.

credits to Ran Ji
I will admit this is one player however..
he never dtilted agaisnt M2K and only did about 1 percent of the time against DEHF as opposed to the 7 Percent against larry and M2K , looking for something that won't be coming isn't practical. Snake has more reason to Dtilt falco because he crawls unless he is planning on crawling toward marth I highly doubt any snake will D tilt you



I can objectively show with this that Snake will not Dtilt you unless he is crawling in which case its telegraphed

 

[Player-3]

GG cp albert


i win

you owe me a shot


and if that was the situation, jab grab pummel dthrow > utilt or walking utilt to punish the roll that they use to avoid the immediate utilt

 

[Albert.]

...

Did blackknight just like switch sides mid-arguement?

oh and I can objectively show you that P-3 is being randomly hostile

....but that doesn't really mean anything.

Ally's not the only snake player in existence. You can't take his move usage from just those two sets and say that they're the only stats that matter. Stats like that don't matter at all.

 

[Player-3]

i'm very angry right now because my ****** is ****ing bleeding

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yeah I agree with Albert. Snake can be played quite differently depending on the player. Ally centralizes his game around grenades and under-utilize other moves. For example Ally hardly used Upsmash in these sets vs. M2K. But if you break down a different player like Razer or Fatal you'll see that they use Upsmash alot more against MKs.

As for d-tilt, its true that it is a lesser option then his other tilts in many options, but it still has its uses and is underutilized. A fresh dtilt kills marth around 135 iirc, which is def earlier then 2 staled utilts. And if the Snake player reads a no action from a dthrow, the best option to rack up the damage is dtilt in order to avoid stailing up-tilt. Also if the Snake player reads a landing fair/nair, he can crouch under the attack and hit with dtilt. dtilt has the longest horizontal range out of all of snake's tilts except for ftilt-2, so many times the opponent would stay out of utilts range yet still get hit by dtilt, which at lower damage sets you up for a combo quite nicely. Lastly Snake can dtilt with a nade if he is crawling forward or backwards.

tl;dr dtilt is underused and def not useless.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Yeah I agree with Albert. Snake can be played quite differently depending on the player. Ally centralizes his game around grenades and under-utilize other moves. For example Ally hardly used Upsmash in these sets vs. M2K. But if you break down a different player like Razer or Fatal you'll see that they use Upsmash alot more against MKs.

As for d-tilt, its true that it is a lesser option then his other tilts in many options, but it still has its uses and is underutilized. A fresh dtilt kills marth around 135 iirc, which is def earlier then 2 staled utilts. And if the Snake player reads a no action from a dthrow, the best option to rack up the damage is dtilt in order to avoid stailing up-tilt. Also if the Snake player reads a landing fair/nair, he can crouch under the attack and hit with dtilt. dtilt has the longest horizontal range out of all of snake's tilts except for ftilt-2, so many times the opponent would stay out of utilts range yet still get hit by dtilt, which at lower damage sets you up for a combo quite nicely. Lastly Snake can dtilt with a nade if he is crawling forward or backwards.

tl;dr dtilt is underused and def not useless.

not at the quoted post but data is more meaningful than opinion, yes this is one player but from my personal experience I don't know any snake player that uses dtilt
frequently/

secondly @ this post. I don't think dtilt is underrated against marth for the reasons that marth is generally in the air and I could be wrong but I doubt Dtilt has a good hitboxin the air.

also when you dtilt you have to crouch first yes? isn't snakes crouch 6 frames meaning you have an attack that comes out at over reaction time which that alone makes it somewhat unviable to use . Correct me if I am wrong on this however

 

[Reizilla]

Whiffed attacks and good reads lead to punishment and getting hit with something other than ftilt.

You can't make a statistic for a whole character out of one person, much less with very limited data.

 

[Reizilla]

Whiffed attacks and good reads lead to punishment and getting hit with something other than ftilt.

You can't make a statistic for a whole character out of one person, much less with very limited data.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I also mentioned in my recent post that with personal experience snakes don't use Dtilt, my use of data for one snake may in and of itself be inaccurate but link my a vid where snake dtilts and wasn't already crawling.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

also when you dtilt you have to crouch first yes? isn't snakes crouch 6 frames meaning you have an attack that comes out at over reaction time which that alone makes it somewhat unviable to use . Correct me if I am wrong on this however

You are wrong on this actually, first off, Snake's crouch is 3 frames, meaning it would be 9 frames to crouch and buffer d-tilt. Also, no characters need to crouch to use d-tilt, I'm surprised you didn't know this as a marth main. It is the exact same this as doing an u-tilt with tap jump on, just slightly hold control stick down and press A.

So snake's dtilt comes out on frame 6, same frame as his utilt. You can't react to that lol.

 

[Albert.]

A post from Steel or Junk from over a year and a half ago:

"Mike doesn't use Dtilt cause he doesn't know how to DTilt without crouching before hand"

ROFL

my memory is so ******** why do I remember that ****?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I also mentioned in my recent post that with personal experience snakes don't use Dtilt, my use of data for one snake may in and of itself be inaccurate but link my a vid where snake dtilts and wasn't already crawling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOQH6m2l8ok#t=0m23s

dtilt w/o crouching =p

 

[Blacknight99923]

You are wrong on this actually, first off, Snake's crouch is 3 frames, meaning it would be 9 frames to crouch and buffer d-tilt. Also, no characters need to crouch to use d-tilt, I'm surprised you didn't know this as a marth main. It is the exact same this as doing an u-tilt with tap jump on, just slightly hold control stick down and press A.

So snake's dtilt comes out on frame 6, same frame as his utilt. You can't react to that lol.

I probably just assumed you had to crouch first because when I play as snake and I dtilt he is literally crouching and I assumed it applied to other characters. I didn't realize that you didn't have to. I admit I was wrong then

that being said If this point is incorrect my other 2 points still stand

marth is an aerial character and tends to be in the air, unless your telling me that dtilt has giant hitbox in the air its uses against marth go down.

and like I said before, show me a video of a decent snake that uses dtilt when he wasn't already crouching.

We could sit here all day (or night in this case as of right now) discussing that you can use dtilt to ko marth, which if its at 130ish percent you can which I agreed on earlier. and that YES its good when you have staled your utilt these are valid facts I won't argue against . What we SHOULD be debating now is how to fight the CURRENT snake metagame which currently doesn't involve Dtilt. If snakes start using dtilt as part of their metagame because it is a BETTER option that is different until that happens It doesn't seem prudent to me to continue discussing it.


edit:after watching vid it didn't disprove my points
(I am refering to when you killed albert with it) You crouched before dtilting , not for very long but you were when you took the stock, and at that period of time Dtilt wasn't a better option as you hadn't decayed utilt on that stock.

you did however dtilt without crouching earlier but didn't hit because marth was in the air above you

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258332
further more dtilt does not have more foward range than utilt or if it does its barely any however I don't personally see dtilt have more range based off this picture, infact the opposite . and as said before isn't hitting marth in the air.

edit picture could be wrong, but Dtilt's range isn't omfg longer but it does have some moderate uses

 

[DEHF]

I'm wondering if doing side b off stage while you're opponent is recovering is a good idea. If you start dancing blade outside of their range so that the first one won't hit but the second one will you could scare your opponent into an air dodge, which you could probably punish if you stop DB. If they don't air dodge they'll be hit with rest of dancing blade which could kill them.

I don't know how well this works or even if it does work, this was just me coming up with random cool stuff with brawl characters.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I wouldn't recommend personally DB'ing past DB 1 off stage for risk of SD, also in the air DB doesn't send them down it keeps them still so you move down while they stay still.... not a good combination

 

[∫unk]

Yeah, purposefully hitting with the end of db so it's stronger isn't something Marth's have exploited yet. That alone is a good idea.

hmm...

 

[Blacknight99923]

Yeah, purposefully hitting with the end of db so it's stronger isn't something Marth's have exploited yet. That alone is a good idea.

hmm...

I can just totally see us getting screwed for this though if 1. we can't recover. 2 If they get out of it now they are above us and closer to the ledge

 

[Reizilla]

I don't think Junk particularly meant off-stage. It's just too easy to see coming though. The only times I've ever gotten it is when I fake stopping at db3 on shield.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't think Junk particularly meant off-stage. It's just too easy to see coming though. The only times I've ever gotten it is when I fake stopping at db3 on shield.

I think I remember doing DB in a jump because I would land on a platform on battlefield since they were going to be right next to the platform when I did it. something like that might be useful at some point but I think platform canceling is the newest fad

 

[Remzi]

This is old, but is probably the most practical use of a fresh DB4.

When someone is near the edge shielding, the first 2 hits connect on his shield and knock him back, the third also connects on his shield, this time toppling him off the stage, 4th connects and is fresh.

 

[Steel]

A post from Steel or Junk from over a year and a half ago:

"Mike doesn't use Dtilt cause he doesn't know how to DTilt without crouching before hand"

ROFL

my memory is so ******** why do I remember that ****?

bahahahahahahah

08-early 09 marth boards <3

 

[Albert.]

bahahahahahahah

08-early 09 marth boards <3

Nostalgia lol

There's only a few of us left.

YOU LEFT TOO.

 

[Player-3]

i'm still here guys


we still have enough to reproduce as soon as we find viquey or nominate albert to be artificially inseminated

 

[Saki-]

ZMT needs to come back.

Ok everytime someone asks how to beat Wolf they get the answer "Just get him offstage".

May I get a more detailed answer?

 

[∫unk]

powershield, time your dash in. forward b covers a lot of options

but i don't know the matchup at all (despite playing choice)... i just play marth. as in, i don't know what options beat what specifically. i just know what marth's good options are.

i have a video of me fighting wolf with marth, and looking back at it i don't think i play anywhere near perfect (you can see the lack of practice even in the video) but maybe it's a good start? i'm sure other marth's have videos of them fighting wolfs's too

 

[Remzi]

heres my most recent match against a wolf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWS-DWSkkTM

i didn't play too great here either, but it shows how to approach him, how you should be reading him, and what to do when you have him offstage.

 

[Reizilla]

In the words of Shaya, we out disjoint him. Just don't let him get inside of you. Dancing blade covers a lot, like Junk said. Grabbing works well for me. Anything specific?

 

[Saki-]

I wish I had some sort of way to view the matches against the wolves I played during the last WABA. I'm not sure if I was applying Dancing Blade enough or not.

@Bengalz, well my aggro game is terrible. >.< so I kind of prefer not to approach because of how terrible I am at it.

 

[Albert.]

we still have enough to reproduce as soon as we find viquey or nominate albert to be artificially inseminated

That was quite a stretch of reason and logic in order to make that little joke, I'm so proud of you.

 

[Player-3]

That was quite a stretch of reason and logic in order to make that little joke, I'm so proud of you.

i learned how to stretch from your mother


get it

stretch marks

it's a fat baby joke

 

[Punishment Divine]

From my experience, you should be using Dancing Blade like 80% of the time against Wolf lol

He's also pretty bad juggle fodder but once again, DB is good for that.

I don't even try to fair in this matchup tbh I just get frustrated when his bair connects off of one slightly mispaced fair and somehow combos me >.>

If you're gonna use an aerial then rising bair seems like a good option.

Fighting Wolf is actually dumb frustrating with Marth, I usually just go Wario/DDD and **** him with an unwinnable matchup lol

 

[Blacknight99923]

Rising bair is probably something that is overlooked in general actually, if only it FF autocanceled..........

do we have the 10 dthrow CG on wolf?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Rising bair is probably something that is overlooked in general actually, if only it FF autocanceled..........

do we have the 10 dthrow CG on wolf?

 

[Shaya]

dthrow doesn't combo on wolf.

 

[Remzi]

Guys, I team with a TL and we are amazing at racking up damage, like we get people to 80-100 extremely fast with no problems, but neither of our characters can kill at all. We end up losing because other people are living to like 190 >_>

We trying setting each other up via grabs but this isn't very reliable if both of your opponents are still in. Any ideas for getting kills earlier in dubs?

 

[Player-3]

fsmash more

 

[Reizilla]

Bomb -> shield breaker setups

 

[Saki-]

I don't think you're using up smash and down smash enough. Up tilt is great too!

Are you chasing off stage?