Marth Metagame Thread

[tibs7]

yeah deano biggest pimp since '08 was it? yeah we should play.

diddy has the most options giving us a plethora of different things to work on and what not. marf is just fair, nair space, db and db mindgames.
hate shaya


p3, p1 says he hates you scrub.

 

[Shaya]

plethora of options aye?

shield + a.
If you have a banana in hand, you throw it.

Your only other option is forward air.

 

[tibs7]

oh snap.
i was just trolling to begin with but anyway.
forward air is great i know. banana in hand could mean gt in any direction. maybe SNL, or PNSL or side B, others. marth just db's. nuff said.

 

[Shaya]

I know you were.

But you mustn't forget about ye ol dolphin slash.
Or down air.
Or up air.

Or SHIELD BREAKAR.

 

[Toby.]

tibs you bad

 

[tibs7]

Marf is bad, there i said it.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think we are getting trolled.

I think marth is a character who realistically has a lot of options frame wise going for him.

so like I was looking at MKs frame data and I realized we can buffer utilt Mk's dair on block.
Obviously some marths (ex mikehaze who apparently wasn't looking to much at frame data until recently) could probably advance marth a lot more by finding ways to increase OoS options

 

[Lord Chair]

Unless MK has silly spacing, that does not work.

 

[Blacknight99923]

its possible is my point and utilt does have a rather large hitbox. however if MK is above the hitbox range by the time you utilt then yes it will not work

 

[Megavitamins]

chair mm at CM's fest? =O

blackknight, i dont think that will happen... most mks just do rising dair, so that its not even hitting your shield

 

[Blacknight99923]

I agree


my point is is that we should look at frame data to expand our punishment options on shield against any character really. I will probably make a list of all moves you can use to punish X move on block with MK sooner or later and then work my way down the tier list. Any list I do will probably be more geared to "its possible" not "its likely to happen" as in the case of several moves such as Mks dair

 

[Lord Chair]

MM sounds fine, we'll talk about it when the time comes, not in this thread

 

[earla]

notice people will stay in their shield after sh fairing through their shield as they expect a bair.

mixup: sh fair through shield > b reversal shield breaker.

mid %'s useful if you've conditioned them to stay in shield to shield your bair.

thoughts?

also been thinking about spiking diddys up b with ledge hop dair.

how about using side b hits 1-2-3 to pop opponent in the nice position to run off footstool dair/ walk off dair?

notice sometimes if your run off side b off a platform or the edge you get a nice boost, mix ups?

some ideas

 

[Shaya]

You'll have to explain better...
when are people expecting bair? it's one of those moves I feel people don't expect too often...

Also the frame disadvantage from dancing blade 3rd hit cancelled into something is reasonably large.

-

Yeah that's known, it has little use imo though besides really really rare vertical spacing mix ups (only in terms of plat forms, ledges i don't think there'd ever be a real use for it).

 

[Blacknight99923]

notice people will stay in their shield after sh fairing through their shield as they expect a bair.

mixup: sh fair through shield > b reversal shield breaker.

mid %'s useful if you've conditioned them to stay in shield to shield your bair.

thoughts?

also been thinking about spiking diddys up b with ledge hop dair.

how about using side b hits 1-2-3 to pop opponent in the nice position to run off footstool dair/ walk off dair?

notice sometimes if your run off side b off a platform or the edge you get a nice boost, mix ups?

some ideas

1. no. because if you do that to my MK (going through my shield and are behind me when I can punish) I am going to nair oos you offstage or grab you,
with snake I can oos bair you ftilt you or grab you ,
with diddy I can throw a banana at you then combo you,
with Falco I will grab jab or bair you,
with ice climbers they will grab you and you will die,
and marth would **** you harder than anything mentioned above (accept IC chain grab)

passing through someones shield is very dumb and then your assuming they won't hit you before you sb


2. if you can, you can just hit him with anything though
3. no.....thats not going to work on anyone remotly decent.


your suggesting doing DB 3 then having them wait the cooldown time and THEN just not hittig you while you get into footstool position

these seems like reallly obvious no-nos dude

 

[6Mizu]

I've been thinking bout working in pivot grab. Let me explain.
As marth when you jump, usually your opponent decides to shield. Well why not hit the opponents shield with a Fair and quick run past them and pivot grab?
Would this work? I've pulled it of a couple times.

 

[Player-3]

not agaisnt someone with a reaction time

 

[Reizilla]

Do the Shaya and don't fair them, saving yourself 4 frames, and just fast fall and grab them standing.

 

[6Mizu]

not agaisnt someone with a reaction time

Yea I guess, but it could be used as a mix up. Correct?

 

[Player-3]

i guess if they like to spotdodge after fairing their shield

 

[daballa100]

@6Mizu

I don't think it'd be worth it for the pivot grab, seeing as you're wasting time when you could just do a normal grab. Sure you could use it as a mixup, but you have to realize that it takes much longer, and a decent opponent would be able to punish you before you can pivot. As a marth player they'll assume you'll space you're fair after a shorthop, so you have to make sure if you're doing a mixup, it's just as fast as short hop fair (or better yet faster), or else they'll punish you for sacrificing spacing for a grab.

 

[earla]

pummel release to set up a regrab to space for grab release dair spike on mk.

alot of people in australia shield after a pummel release.

jp i find i fair through shield and melbourne players seem to hold their shield expecting the bair after the fair.

 

[Blacknight99923]

that is used. I beleive havok mentioned here at some point

 

[Remzi]

anyone have any good/recent Marth v D3 vids?

 

[Blacknight99923]

use metaknight against MK and D3. In all honesty its either

side falco

side MK for taking care of your bad match ups


that being said I will look for one

 

[Shaya]

I'm getting more confident in the d3 match up....
I find it all about "not throwing out aerials" / "not committing to an aerial" until the latest possible moment.
well spaced grounded ftilt isn't punished from d3 with anything other than -maybe- his ftilt. But luckily the damage for it is minimal, and playing your game with "oh well it's just ftilt" in mind is okay...

anyway definitely not an expert...

 

[earla]

sb recov. charge it nearly full release, opponent my be deceived into moving into a position to punishing the boost sb

= safe recov.

risky mixup, next time full charge

 

[Reizilla]

I could see it maybe working on slower characters. And getting you killed against faster ones like MK and ZSS.

 

[earla]

ok, this is probably discovered, shield breaker b reversal on the ground. you get a little slide if you dash, wait to slide a little then immediately reverse sb.

possibly useful as a tasteful mixup performing it at minimum distance(as you can do this anytime out of a dash after the initial dash length)

you dash away, opponent is baited, if they move towards you at all they have sb in their face.

 

[Blacknight99923]

ok, this is probably discovered, shield breaker b reversal on the ground. you get a little slide if you dash, wait to slide a little then immediately reverse sb.

possibly useful as a tasteful mixup performing it at minimum distance(as you can do this anytime out of a dash after the initial dash length)

you dash away, opponent is baited, if they move towards you at all they have sb in their face.

you should probably start reading our discussions instead of trying to talk about metagame stuff that MR R developed.

 

[Shaya]

i don't really recall Mr R "developing" that at all.

A lot of Marth gimmicks have been known for ages, Mr R is just well known for getting away with gimmicks

before marth can b reverse shield breaker on the ground though requires him to be dashing for 17 frames or whatever first... a lot of time.

 

[Blacknight99923]

that is true, but a lot of things people probably over look and then someone starts applying it.

Although it is true its not like MR R invented it

 

[Mr-R]

hmm at this last tournament i started experimenting more with first hit nair, its a good move on high % since it combos into nearly everything.
HOWEVER it's extremely hard to space, it's best to be used when someone is airdodging while being close to the ground.
there are gonna be some videos up soon where you'll see what i mean xD

 

[Albert.]

Mr. R I heard that you're good.

 

[tibs7]

Beats diddy kong in gf's 3-0 twice!

 

[Player-3]

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkks

 

[tibs7]

Oh no he's back.

 

[Reizilla]

i don't really recall Mr R "developing" that at all.

A lot of Marth gimmicks have been known for ages, Mr R is just well known for getting away with gimmicks

before marth can b reverse shield breaker on the ground though requires him to be dashing for 17 frames or whatever first... a lot of time.

Inventor = person that made the world see how sexy something is, hence, Shayain, Hazewalking.

 

[Mr-R]

hmm at this last tournament i started experimenting more with first hit nair, its a good move on high % since it combos into nearly everything.
HOWEVER it's extremely hard to space, it's best to be used when someone is airdodging while being close to the ground.
there are gonna be some videos up soon where you'll see what i mean xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URYCa3HAMa8&feature=related ( full match wasnt recorded )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLGY67-V5YA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME5aW2NgI5U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QdBcRZSXZ8&feature=channel

 

[∫unk]

can opponents roll/sd through a db every time they block it? it's seriously annoying that they can roll behind me in between db hits (basically making it so i can't shield pressure with it)