Marth Metagame Thread

[∫unk]

IF YOU HAVE A BASIC QUESTION, ASK IN THE Q+A THREAD!


Picture by Junk. Helped by Feardragon.

Welcome to the Marth Metagame Thread!

What is a metagame thread? It's where you link recent high level videos, post any discoveries, post results! Post thoughts about extremely specific situations and we will discuss the best options to tackle the situation.

Anything strictly to do with Marth and competitive play will be found here. This is NOT for basic Marth play.

Here's an example of a GOOD post for this thread:

Hey I've been using dancing blade green version near the edge and it seems unpunishable, I think it would be better vs. Metaknight just to do the red version because they could smash DI up and d-air you, but someone like DDD won't be able to do anything.

Here's an example of a BAD post for this thread:

Dancing Blade down version is always bad. I'm the best.

Why is the above post not good? Because there's no explanation. It can even be a one line explanation, but just leaving your opinion without any reasoning doesn't help. Explain why and refrain from belittling the person who you're addressing.

I may leave summarized topics here as an index on this OP and say what pages the topics were being discussed on, but for now there's nothing to archive.

I also haven't decided if I'm going to list the topic in the title/OP, I'll decide later.

I'm going to introduce the first topic, but I really don't want to have to keep bringing up topics. I don't even main Marth. I just like talking about the game and these boards have the highest concentration of competitive players that understand what I'm talking about.

So here are some thread moderation guidelines, so that you understand why I will infract you.

1) This is intended to be a lot more serious than the current General Discussion Thread. Spam, flaming and trolling will have repercussions.
2) Tactical Discussion refers to us discussing the metagame, tournament results, techniques, strategies and things akin to this. Anything not related will most likely be considered spam.
3) Discussions should generally be centralised, hence you should remain on topic. Bringing in new topics should be delayed if another is currently active.
4) Questions that you expect to have short responses should remain in the Q&A thread. Things such as What’s the chaingrab Marth has on Falco has a quick answer; What are our best options in approaching Falco and punishing his camping game? could have a well fleshed out discussion and is somewhat preferred here.
5) New threads should be for guides, research or topics that would most likely take several days to discuss (Match Up threads, for example).
6) This is a bit of an experiment, we are doing this to hopefully make the Marth boards more active in the right areas.

 

[∫unk]

If Marth Up B's as he gets hit, I think he keeps his momentum of the "falling Up B" state. It's easiest to tell if you hold Snake's grenade then try to Dolphin Slash the edge, you have no momentum and won't be able to Dolphin Slash to the edge again. (Put yourself at a decent percent so you would have to move towards the stage to make it back)

I haven't really tried everything behind it, but I know if you f-air it helps you move forward a little but still not as much as normal air movement.

I only tested it for about 5 minutes to see if it was true that you lose horizontal momentum sometimes and how it happens, but what do others think?

 

[Shaya]

Its annoying how buggy Up Bs are in brawl.
Marth losing his momentum like that can be exceptionally bad, especially against some characters on stage. I think Ive had that mobility thing happen to me before off stage, wasnt pretty - I BELIEVE that ROBs bair edge guarding results in this too. Im not sure if there are extreme specifics but yeah if you get hit with Marth just as you were up bing to the ledge you seem to get your mobility cut . This probably is worst against MKs dair, that even with good DI youll still end up somewhat lower than you were before.

From what I can gather if you shieldbreaker it should reset your mobility.

 

[Albert.]

Yeah, It seems as though if this happens to you then your best bet IS to shieldbreaker, which I suppose invites an attack, but hopefully you can DI the attack well in order to regain your momentum. Sort of how DIing Horizantal attacks upward is almost like giving you another jump (along with the damage, lol)

Honestly though this thing has only happened to me like 10 times in the like thousands of matches I've played

 

[Reizilla]

Wow, I never realized that was the cause of that. It happens to me somewhat frequently, maybe once every 10 games or so. Could be because I play against Snake a lot. I believe umping also helps regain your mobility, the same as when momentum canceling, if you still have it.

 

[ChibixD]

Nair is awesome.
Vs Big characters you can advance and retreat with nair and it is really safe, pokes shield, deal a lot dmg, keeps your fair fresher for air chasing.

When the oponent get to close, retreating nair with its high duration hitbox will ajust your spacing easily and its easy to land.

If you think your nair will not be good spaced, fast fall it and buffer Up B, this should avoid the shield grab.

 

[Pathetiqu3]

Has anyone been able to put ISJR to any use? Or even pull it off with any consistency?

It seems like it has a lot going for it, Marth has hella high aerial mobility, and spams aerials quite a lot.

 

[Shaya]

Im not entirely sure of the mechanics of ISJR...
Are you actually jumping after your aerials lag is over, or are you able to somehow rejump during landing lag or something?
Marths pressure game from aerials really relies on the frame advantages he gains from fast falled pressure.
Also Marths aerial acceleration is not as good as characters like Bowser (IIRC).

So yeah I need to know more about the mechanics/specifics of ISJR to know whether or not I would recommend it.

Retreating rising nair is amazing.
Retreating untippered first hit nair naturally pushes the second hit into a tipper. So quite good.
Its not unpunishable though:
Nair is hitting until frame 21 (13 for a normal second hit... ), and from a sh the earliest marth can be back on the ground is frame 30. The nair will auto cancel though so you are looking at 11-19 frames of lag . Reasonably feasible for someone like meta knight to shield drop into a dash grab.

 

[Reizilla]

I think ISJR is constantly using your mid-air jump, no? Like Shaya said, fast falled pressure + good ground game + Marth gets punished if he's floating around too much, all make it seem like ISJR wouldn't really work out for him very well. Maybe useful for fighting ICs? /theorycraft

Am I the only one that gets hit BETWEEN n-air hits?

 

[Shaya]

Its hard to get hit inbetween nairs.
You can get super armor shield grabbed between the hits.

And of course if the first hit actually didnt hit them? hell yeah its feasible for someone to hit you in that 7-8 frames gap (+6 really because the first hit must of whiffed too).

 

[Remzi]

I just thought of this right now but I've never tried it.

Let's say you are recovering against a character that likes to fire lots of offstage. If you DS by moving the analog up slowly and then pressing B, you can get the vertical boost from the DJ while still keeping your double jump and having another DS handy.

A more practical and probably more useful application of this would be using the same kind of up B into snakes cypher before using your double jump. I think that would actually be pretty **** against snake.

All of that already happens if you play with tap jump off, but few people here do that.

*EDIT: Come to think of it, it's probably a good idea to always use that kind of DS if you can...

 

[Blacknight99923]

A video would be cool
or if you have the name of it I will gladly type it in myself

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Wow @ calling me out like I don't justify it to people when I tell them not do something? Take my name out of that OP you little ***** now I'm not posting ****.

 

[Neon X]

So im guessing Tap Jump on is essential to Marth's metagame right? IDK if its just me but i keep Tap jump off.

 

[Remzi]

So im guessing Tap Jump on is essential to Marth's metagame right? IDK if its just me but i keep Tap jump off.

not essential... but it makes it a lot easier to DS OoS.

 

[Megavitamins]

Bengalz you can just hold up on analog stick when you get hit, while you're still in hitstun

 

[Neon X]

So Ds OoS is the only benefit tap jump on has. Well what do you recommend Bengal?
PS: We brawled in the AIB ladder a couple of months ago, Nice Marth.

 

[Shaya]

Neon X, this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264278

Was JUST talking about tap jump maaan.

 

[Remzi]

Bengalz you can just hold up on analog stick when you get hit, while you're still in hitstun

That's assuming you were hit off and didn't jump off on your own (see snake cypher example). Also, if you did that you couldn't fastfall after momentum cancelling.

 

[Player-3]

So guys

agaisnt diddy, if he doesn't have a bannana i've found that you can sit so that your jab will tip right on the ledge, and just wait for him to move, and then jab multiple times and he can't do **** except roll, which you can punish easily

thoughts?

and if he goes for the walljump > naner you can run up and fair to grab it and throw it to the other side of the stage

 

[Shaya]

Diddy in general has terrible ledge get up options.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ISJR is essentially buffering double jumping as you're about to hit the ground as an aerial ends. The timing is extremely strict, but I believe it's useful and should be implemented more.

 

[Player-3]

yeah shaya but jab covers ALL of them


minus his crappy roll

 

[Blacknight99923]

DB testing on SV platform

I think it may be possible to do DB1up(the first up version of DB) version to grab on SV platfrorm. When i did Db1 they just slid further away but when i did up version they landed near me for grab. If somone could test this for me further i would appreciate it or if this is already known or something similar is known i would appreciate it if you would post
-Soren-

 

[Shaya]

(I moved your threads post into this btw Blacknight, things that you have not actually done research yourself for [so you arent sure] should have you asking about it first rather than making a new thread)

DB2-Ups hitbox sends people backwards/towards Marth.

[Attack: Dancing Blade Up (Two)]
[Hit: 7-10 | Damage: 3 | BKB: 1E | KBG: 14 | HL: 30]
[Hit: 7-10 | Damage: 4 | BKB: 1E | KBG: 14 | HL: 30]
[Input: 11-31 | To: Dancing Blade (Three)]
[IASA: 40]

The problem is that the hit stun even at its BEST (30 frames of hit stun, btw) you will only be in an even situation.
Its legitimacy would depend on their falling speed (as in they land on the ground and get landing lag), but most characters should be able to jump away nearly everytime.

 

[∫unk]

Are they going to be ready to jump?

 

[Shaya]

P.S. that hitstun at its best thing occurs at something close to 250%.

 

[ChibixD]

What about Counter OOS?
While holding shield, you jump and immediatly down B

I think this is good vs someone poking your shield, like snake first hit of Ftilt, MK dtilt is too fast for this I think...

 

[Albert.]

What about Counter OOS?
While holding shield, you jump and immediatly down B

I think this is good vs someone poking your shield, like snake first hit of Ftilt, MK dtilt is too fast for this I think...

...No


Why would you even think that would be a good idea?

 

[Zankoku]

A lot of players like to tap your shield with a single hit to test how you react. Reacting with a counter out of shield is slightly better than reacting with fsmash in the wrong direction out of shield. Not only does it rely on them going for another attack LONG after their first one was shielded, but it also leaves you open forever if they don't happen to trigger the counter.

 

[ChibixD]

I tried it today sometimes and I got good results, obviously without spamming counter...

 

[Megavitamins]

Brazil + wifi is bad, stfu

We're talking about good people

 

[∫unk]

for the future, mintys post is an example of a bad post. its not even good trolling (if you want to know why look at my aib blog). chibi or anyone dont respond

same with shayas post following mine. dont post something then forget to post key information, and then cover it up with cute after remarks. if you forgot then edit it into your original post.

Spoiler

the reason, shaya, is because then people like myself become wary of responding to you at all, and considering how you're a key member this particularly bothers me. i'm posting this here and not on AIM or PM because i want any other potential posts like yours to not show up as much as possible.

im not even kidding, if you want discussion, dont post like an idiot, dont post ambiguously, dont post to make yourself sound smart

im trying to have discussion thats meaningful. anyone thats had a metagame discussion on aim with me knows how well they can go. You both gain experience but also improve as players by thinking about options in various situations.

so newer people dont hesitate to post your crazy ideas if youve thought them out.

 

[Megavitamins]

Im a sorry

 

[Albert.]

Let's discuss Marth's camping abilities.

(not kidding lol)

 

[Zankoku]

Marth's camping seems mostly limited to a very ambiguous "making them want to approach." He doesn't really give much of an actual reason for anyone to want to go in, especially against characters like Falco. You can sorta call it camping by standing in a range where they can't hit you but if they take a single step forward then you can hit them, but that seems to be more like passive-aggressive pressure. On the other hand, Marth's got plenty of defensive options so if they ever do rush in without thinking their approach through very carefully, you can punish it in like five different ways.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Camping has never really worked for me that well. As ankoku said, characters like Falco don't really have trouble keeping themselves safe while still harming their opponenent.
And against characters that don't have a projectile, often I find my self in situations in which they refuse to directly approach me. They just kinda hang around the outside of my bubble waiting for something to happen. My immediate response to someone loitering around me is to tip them with something, so I can stay as safe as possible and then they simply make sure that my attack misses and they act to punish it.

But thats just me and the people I play against.

 

[Player-3]

Marth's camping seems mostly limited to a very ambiguous "making them want to approach." He doesn't really give much of an actual reason for anyone to want to go in, especially against characters like Falco. You can sorta call it camping by standing in a range where they can't hit you but if they take a single step forward then you can hit them, but that seems to be more like passive-aggressive pressure. On the other hand, Marth's got plenty of defensive options so if they ever do rush in without thinking their approach through very carefully, you can punish it in like five different ways.

the ZMT is not dead !

camping with marth doesn't work to the extent that you can deal safe damage, camping with marth really only serves to buy yourself some time to reset the situation you're in since the enemy can't hit you while you're camping, and, if they're smart won't run into your attacks

 

[BacklashMarth]

Camping usually results in either the opponent abusing their projectile privilages, you becoming a victim to some other sort of pressure, or just them pulling a wario and buzzing around until you do something they can punish. Letting your opponent set the pace of the game usually doesnt turn out well for marth unless you can shut down all their options (which he does better up close typically).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth's camping seems mostly limited to a very ambiguous "making them want to approach." He doesn't really give much of an actual reason for anyone to want to go in, especially against characters like Falco. You can sorta call it camping by standing in a range where they can't hit you but if they take a single step forward then you can hit them, but that seems to be more like passive-aggressive pressure. On the other hand, Marth's got plenty of defensive options so if they ever do rush in without thinking their approach through very carefully, you can punish it in like five different ways.

Honestly, with Marth, you're camping with shield pressure, eventually, shields go down, and that leads to getting shield poked, and damage, especially when marth has so many safe ways to attack shield that come out faster then reaction time and can shieldpoke reasonably with for example, nair from above, or dtilt from below, shield pressure eventually forces them to act once they're in the "zone".

Ultimately, jumping relatively close to people forces people to do SOMETHING and the safest option is shield (or they can go on the offensive here, in which case, mission accomplished), and that very fact is shield pressure, this very fact allows marth to limit his opponent's options due to controlling space, while at the same time, gradually making them either be forced to approach, or taking a shield poke. Ultimately, the opponent only loses from this situation (with the longer the wait, the less shield they have available), so they'll have to say "**** it" sooner or later and go on the offensive.

Honestly, a lot of this goes back to what I said about a threat being greater then it's execution, Marth can force people to take the next step and actually approach through the threat of shield-poking, or honestly, even a broken shield.


I tell people "I like to camp on shield" and there's a reason for that, cause I'm never really trying to be offensive (I'm an extremely campy player by nature, even in melee), my real goal is to force my opponent to do something. Now I might not be good at it, but in principal it takes advantage of Marth's natural safely to force people to go on the approach simply because it pressures them into a continuously degrading position unless the opponent can reliably threaten them in that position (ex. MK).




Furthermore, I honestly think we're moving past the era of projectiles forcing people to approach, projectiles control space, but unless their hitbox reaching you isn't predictable (within a range of powershield frames), people can just powershield the projectile. Honestly, even a technical scrub like me is getting to the point where I can reliably powershield most projectiles, and if I can find a fox willing to practice it with me, I'm getting that down too (cause let's face it, if you can powershield fox's lasers, what can't you powershield?).

Not to say projectiles are bad, Falco's lasers are AMAZING at space control for example and Lucario's fully charged Spheres are an enormous threat, but with rare exceptions (Pit for example) projectiles reach you too slowly and predictably to reliably force approaches and people are starting to catch on to that.


Pit is a special case because he can control when the projectile actually hits you by juking it (or not) at the last instant. This prevents reliable powershielding, resulting in a net decrease in shield, resulting in forced approaches.