Marth Metagame Thread

[Zankoku]

Honestly, with Marth, you're camping with shield pressure, eventually, shields go down, and that leads to getting shield poked, and damage, especially when marth has so many safe ways to attack shield that come out faster then reaction time and can shieldpoke reasonably with for example, nair from above, or dtilt from below, shield pressure eventually forces them to act once they're in the "zone".

but that seems to be more like passive-aggressive pressure.

I think we're seriously going to have to figure out the distinction between pressure and camping if we want to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

While, like in camping, you may not be taking the initial action in pressure, it is still a decidedly aggressive stance, which I feel that most forms of "camping" are very much not so.

 

[Blacknight99923]

When marth camps it isn't to damage his oppenent but simply limit their options. Camping more or less causes the same thing. Snakes grenades with their slow speed probably won't hit unless you walk into them

 

[feardragon64]

Sorry to go off topic but nobody but Shaya is on right now and he's not responding. I have to ask this though. What is going on here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcPqHbrTpk4#t=0m55s

Marth does a get up roll toward the edge and like instantly grabs it. Am I seeing things or what? From what I can tell, it happened while he was still sitting on his butt and mk moved really close to him. Did he just get pushed off(can you get pushed while sitting on your butt?) or is there some super cool way to grab the edge from the ground that I don't know about?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, he pretty much just got pushed off by Meta Knight.

 

[Remzi]

My impression was that he simply got pushed off. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. The only inputs that actually do anything on the ground are either direction, up, or attack as far as I know...

I think we're seriously going to have to figure out the distinction between pressure and camping if we want to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

While, like in camping, you may not be taking the initial action in pressure, it is still a decidedly aggressive stance, which I feel that most forms of "camping" are very much not so.

I'm pretty sure it was EL that drilled into our heads that this passive aggressive style of play was camping. That's if my memory serves me right...

 

[Shaya]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe0Xv52_yk

I somewhat believe Marth can camp through the instant ledge grab AT and on certain stages.

 

[BacklashMarth]

The ledge grab AT looks like its probably most useful on halberd and delfino since you can land onstage on the off chance you opponent gets the edgehog on you (not very likey but anything is possible). Yoshi's too probably since the whole "if I make a mistake then I'm under the stage" thing is eliminated. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Saki-]

So far if the opponent has grabbed the ledge while I try the quick regrab I end up on the stage regardless, it's just never fun because of the massive landing lag..

Unless we're talking japes, then you're just screwed regardless. **** Water Guardian.

 

[**Havok**]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe0Xv52_yk

I somewhat believe Marth can camp through the instant ledge grab AT and on certain stages.

the invisible woman strikes again.

 

[Blacknight99923]

That match was long

Kudos for a marth to timeout somone though lol

 

[Pr0phetic]

Something a lot of people forget:

If MK is too close to the ledge for a GR --> Dair, or UpB, you can run off and do a Fair. This seems to tip often, and if done right is unavoidable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think we're seriously going to have to figure out the distinction between pressure and camping if we want to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

While, like in camping, you may not be taking the initial action in pressure, it is still a decidedly aggressive stance, which I feel that most forms of "camping" are very much not so.

I generally don't consider shield pressure offensive in any of it's forms, my understanding has always been that aggression requires you to move into your opponent's melee zone of control, hence why I differentiate between moving close enough to poke and approaching.


That said, I believe we can agree that both methods are reletively safe ways of pressuring the opponent into doing what you want, approaching.

 

[Doomblaze]

What's the best way to restore momentum in a match where you're playing against a campy snake? I find that if I get on the ledge I get hit by 3-4 grenades trying to get back on and then get F-tilted and U-tilted before I can get into a better position on the stage.
Snake is hard to "camp", and if you're far away from him he can just set up grenades and mines around the stage. Snake is my most momentum-based matchup, and when I lose it I get destroyed.

I think that our idea of sword camping with marth is either doing the ZMT and not really hitting them, or pressuring their shield and hitting them. Marth can plank with the instant ledge grab, but he doesn't have a way to deal with people when theyre well outside of sword range.

 

[phi1ny3]

So ya, MLG instated a bunch of controversial rules, some of which involve some stage picks.

I'm going to assume DDDs are going to get more powerful (Delphino as a neutral?), but Falco/ICs/Diddys will be thurting a bit (except for The fact that Dave's Stupid Rule isn't in effect).

Oh yeah, and Marth can't "infinite" Ness/Lucas, even though they technically aren't infinites, and nearly everyone has something silly against them :\.

@ Doomblaze: juggle him hard. Unfortunately being on the ledge against snake means you're going to take a beating esp. if you're predictable and don't know your options, I'd have to say that sometimes one of marth's underrated options on the ledge imo is his plain "getup" option, since you don't suffer shieldstun from an attack and you have some pretty fast options (like shield, DS, or DB) available to you. That and most of the time Snake is going to expect ledgehop stuff and space for that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm gonna point out that since this is MLG, they're a corporation, doing marth's long chaingrab on ness is presumably still legal due to threat of legal issues.


Keep in mind that it's not just additions to the neutral list, it's almost twice the size, I don't think you'll be seeing a DDD get deflino first round anytime soon.


Starters, the expanded list gives you a much better chance at getting an evenish MU first round cause characters that did better on the old neutral list now have to contend with the need to strike the likes of defino.



Honestly, I'm more concerned about a number of other things, for example, a rule that isn't there, team attack.

 

[phi1ny3]

but I would think team attack wouldn't affect marth as much as, say Falco or Diddy (lol broken camp storms) or MK, since Marth is pretty rare doubles-wise.

Green greens sounds evil. At least they didn't do Corneria as well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

but I would think team attack wouldn't affect marth as much as, say Falco or Diddy (lol broken camp storms) or MK, since Marth is pretty rare doubles-wise.

Green greens sounds evil. At least they didn't do Corneria as well.

Green greens is not evil, but there seems to be only like 5 people outside of washington who know how to play on it. It's all a matter of stage knowledge.


But it helps characters with good KO power, camping on the sides is dangerous, but rewarding, and the bombs aren't random at all, and with actual DI, don't KO till like 140. They also have 1 frame of a hitbox, and they explode whenever your hurtbox or hitbox impacts (even if invincible).



Green Greens is fine.



Also, team attack off is more a thing to help marth then hurt him.

 

[∫unk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe0Xv52_yk

I somewhat believe Marth can camp through the instant ledge grab AT and on certain stages.

I disagree.

This Falco believes that him approaching at all is going to be destroyed by Marth, and doesn't try for a majority of the time, and when he finally does he does it in predictable fashion.

1) He never shoots grounded lasers, which more than likely would have ruined your whole powershield lasers thing.
2) There's no laser covering his approach
3) He tries to d-air you I think on every approach attempt he made. You just shielded and punished every time. Even if he jumps down there's at least 2 mixups he could consider doing, where you couldn't just sit there in your shield and punish him.

At 2:42, he laser up smashes your shield twice, which you twice fail to punish. Disregarding how the situation should actually play out, he could have just done it one more time and your shield would have been too small to stop it.

I bring this up, because based off this key moment, you get damage on him and continue to win by percent lead the rest of the match.


---


I think no two of the same character is an interesting rule on teams.

I'm most interested to see how well the Marth's do where they lose to double MK. Like MikeHAZE + Havok vs DSF + Tyrant.

I'm not saying they lose because it's double MK, but if they win maybe it is? I don't know that's why I'm interested to see the results.

 

[phi1ny3]

But wouldn't you say other chars benefit muuuuuuuch more from no team attack than Marth?

Also on Green greens:

TL dsmash insta-kill

Olimar ****

DDD wall infinite (I don't care that Pr4x1s says you can destroy those blocks, it only takes one grab to kill the stock)

iirc G&W has a wall infinite too.

and these silly glitches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH9k-q-9uJU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq9c7baBplU&feature=related

 

[adumbrodeus]

But wouldn't you say other chars benefit muuuuuuuch more from no team attack than Marth?

Also on Green greens:

TL dsmash insta-kill

Olimar ****

DDD wall infinite (I don't care that Pr4x1s says you can destroy those blocks, it only takes one grab to kill the stock)

iirc G&W has a wall infinite too.

and these silly glitches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH9k-q-9uJU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq9c7baBplU&feature=related

Depends on the situation, but I can say that I disagree, but I it's better then the reverse for him.


Honestly, a lot of characters have exploits here, I've seen them all, but the only one I'm really concerned about is G&W's planking with blocks in the proper positions.


As for glitches, they're a stage knowledge thing.

 

[Shaya]

From what I recall, I think praxis said that the wind would stop the infinite eventually.

Good critique though Junk, I should probably pass it on to my opponent.

 

[Albert.]

The "no double character" rule has been taken off of MLG's official website.

 

[Shaya]

Arr okay, AlphaZealot said they would.

Now to get team attack turned on.
And to save ULTIMATE RAZER.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think Texas won't go emo about Razer taking their money at MLG events for awhile lol

the no double characters is a good sign towards progression though

 

[adumbrodeus]

Arr okay, AlphaZealot said they would.

Isn't that a leak?


Oh well, I don't think (or at least I hope) nobody will call you on it.


Or am I just being hyper-sensitive towards this?

 

[clowsui]

that's not a leak, aZ said in a post somewhere (the one where he talked about no-springs) that they would change it

 

[Megavitamins]

Adum I have a serious question

Why are you a BBR member?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum I have a serious question

Why are you a BBR member?

Is being rules oriented a bad thing? Especially when I repeatedly defended it prior to getting in.

 

[Saki-]

tbh I really don't see what he's doing wrong, to make others question him for being in the BBR. He's just cautious.

I'm not sure if this supposed to be ask in the QA thread or not, but I guess I'll post it here.

I'm really wanting to use Marth's jab a bit more but haven't found out where and when to apply it except for against Peach, Falco, and Metaknight.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I have no idea if this is common knowledge however I found out in training you can GR up smash MK by buffered dash into fox trot upsmash. it wasn't in havoks guide and I didn't see Mike haze using it on M2K (upsmash obviously does more damage then fair so i would assume he would just use that)

if this isn't new then nm

If it is WOOOT



Hopfully i will be able to defenitivly proove my GR dash foxtrot stutter step F smash tipper on MK by the end of today

 

[Megavitamins]

No I'm just honestly curious... Not to offend, I haven't heard of you and then I saw you had a purple name lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

No I'm just honestly curious... Not to offend, I haven't heard of you and then I saw you had a purple name lol

Oh... I'm hurt, you've met me and seen me in person a couple of times actually. I last saw you at Poly-Brawl, say you with Matt (the other Matt, aka PD) and I watched a couple of your matches. You seemed to know who I was.



Got there too late to be in the brackets because of work though...


Edit:

Obviously I'm not cool enough to be notable *cries*

j/k, but I'm not really all that good at the game, so I guess I didn't make much of an impression. I think I'm generally supposed to be there as a thinker and theorist, also to calm people down and suggest rational courses of action as opposed to fixating on the existence of a problem, cause they seem to think I'm good at that.

Spoiler

I don't know what they were thinking.

 

[Megavitamins]

=( I'm really sorry I offended you bro, my memory is like... terribad, I dun remmeber anybody unless I play with them alot.

 

[adumbrodeus]

=( I'm really sorry I offended you bro, my memory is like... terribad, I dun remmeber anybody unless I play with them alot.

Joking over-exaggeration man, don't worry.

 

[Shaya]

Upsmash does not work on MK out of a grab release.

 

[Megavitamins]

It does on sv platform and against wal!

 

[Blacknight99923]

Not using a wall and shaya its buffered dash fox trot U smash not dash thats the key. And it will hit anywhwere

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd like to see her confirm it with frame by frame, if it's possible it would be cool.


I'm assuming you're a girl because of your avie, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Shaya]

A fox trot and dash are pretty much ONE IN THE SAME.
PLEASE, before you come in here saying something exists, make sure you have someone testing this with you who is trying the obvious options:

jumping
air dodging
uaring

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think Shaya is a guy and i Know for a fact I am (yep just checked)


shaya a fox trott is a dash yes however it does accelerate you by a small margin.


I might be able to get somone by this weekend to test but if somone else wants to feel free.


WHAT I CAN SAY is that when i hIt MK he is higher iin the air than when i Dair him out of GR