Marth matchup discussion

[EmblemPrincess]

Just because I'm new doesn't mean I don't know anything. I've been playing Brawl since it came out. And almost since it came out I've been playing Ike. I've been playing Marth a pretty long time too. I know how both of them work. Trust me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Have you been in any tournaments?

Have you faced/beaten anyone noteworthy?

Do you know that wifi is worthless for match-up discussions?

I'm seriously guessing "no" as your response to all three.

Doesn't the fact that NO ONE in this topic, other then you, has even suggested Ike has the advantage clue you in on someone? We had one guy say 50-50 and then take it back, and I said 45-55 initially and then admitted I haven't faced the best Marths. This is including well known and respected Ikes saying 35-65.

Playing Ike since the beginning doesn't mean anything RoK and comboking have done the same thing, and they are laughing stocks/flaming stocks around here.

 

[DMG]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there Princess.

Range here isn't the real issue, it's about how safe the moves are. It means little to outrange your opponent if the moves aren't fairly safe. Ike has safe moves... but Marth out ranges those with his own safe moves.

As for whether Aether or Dolphin Slash is more vulnerable if it misses, you have to also consider that Dolphin Slash has invincibility frames at the beginning, which is more useful than Super armor later in Aether.

Marth's counter is widely considered better than Ike's. Marth having a faster counter means he can more realistically counter an attack without too far of prediction. Ike has 6? more frames than Marth before his counter activates. Not only that, but Marth's actual counter strike back has a better chance of hitting the opponent. I'm not sure which counter has a longer duration though.

Spiking with any character in Brawl is relatively difficult to pull off, aside from CG to spike with Falco or Fthrow CG with Marth into guaranteed spike (or Marth's grab release into Spike, but that's even rarer). I would argue that Ike cannot spike as well as Marth can overall because not only can Marth jump out further than Ike can and safely attempt a spike, but the move itself has a longer duration with which Marth can spike with compared to Ike. Dtilt is hard to spike with since a lot of characters can auto snap the ledge and avoid it.

As for your other points, yes it's very hard for Ike when he has to recover, as Marth is one of the better edgeguarders out there.

Also you guys don't flame her too hard, just explain why you think she is incorrect and post your reasoning. She'll either agree with it, or if not THEN you can flame her lol.

 

[Ussi]

I will take the time to kindly refute everything you just said right now ^_^

My Ike vs Marth matches make me think the same thing as the threadmaker. Honestly. Ike outranges Marth, he outpowers Marth, and outspikes him.

While that may all be true... Marth outspeeds Ike, out zones him, and out gimps him. When it comes to landing Spikes I'd say Marth has an easier time LANDING them.

Also, Aether > Dolphin Slash. There's a bunch of things Ike can do with Aether. Recover, Aether-spiking in two different ways at the edge of the stage, combo it with dthrow, and more. Dolphin Slash is only good for slight comboing, recovery, and gimping some characters' jabs.

I would gladly take Dolphin Slash to replace aether.... Dolphin Slash has INVINCIBILITY frames which is BETTER than super armor frames. Marth can dolphin slash while he is being HIT by Ike's aether and knock Ike the hell away. Plus it stage spikes.

Dolphin Slash >>>>>> Aether

Plus, Marth is extremely vulnerable if Dolphin Slash misses. Ike, not so much. He gets super armor, plus Aether finishes up quickly.

Ike is still vulnerable and as i said, invincibility frames for the first 5 frames are much more better than super armor after like 18 frames.

Another thing, Ike's Counter > Marth's Counter. Marth's comes out faster, but Ike's has the advantage of doing more damage and lasting longer.

Speed is was makes a counter a good counter. Marth's is only 10% weaker than Ike's counter. Also their counters last the same amount of time.

Next, I find it a lot easier to spike with Ike than Marth. Haha, that's so funny. Spike with Ike. lol. Anyway, Ike's spiking is so beastly it isn't even funny. He can gimp edge-canceling with dtilt, combo dair with a bthrow or fthrow at the edge of the stage, or Aether-spike two ways. One, while Ike is recovering, resulting in a backfire on a possible edge-guard attempt, and the second way, which is harder to pull off, while Ike is facing the edge of the stage and the opponent is away from that stage edge. Ike even has a fourth spike known as Eruption, although this is the hardest to pull off. Even I'm not positive if my success-look-alikes in the attempt to do it were true successes.

Marth Sweetspot the ledge when recovering, dtilt is useless. bthrow/fthrow > dair is not a true combo. Easily air dodged or just recover low. Yes you can bait it but Marth's Dolphin slash makes short work of it. Lastly, I'll say it again, MARTH CAN USE DOLPHIN SLASH WHILE HE IS BEING HIT BY AETHER

Really, at most, this match up is 55-45, Ike's favor. Ike's only disadvantages are Marth's speed and Dancing Blade. Also, if a Marth can pull it off, Ike is screwed if he manages to start edge guarding him with fair.

Counter > aether, Marth has A LOT going for him in this MU

I'll end this post by saying you all should remember that this is coming from a player who uses both Ike and Marth frequently.

It doesn't matter, you haven't been using Marth to his full potential (Not many do).



@DMG, their counters have the same duration of counter frames, and they end at the same time. Ike's **counter frames** just starts later and ends later. And yes its 6 frames later than Marths

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also you guys don't flame her too hard, just explain why you think she is incorrect and post your reasoning. She'll either agree with it, or if not THEN you can flame her lol.

*points to sig*

This is the Ike board. Everyone knows Ike's mottos.

EDIT: stupid sig not showing up because I forgot to press the button.........


SIG: ^Don't expect sympathy in the above post.

 

[DMG]

@DMG, their counters have the same duration of counter frames, and they end at the same time. Ike's just starts later and ends later. And yes its 6 frames later than Marths

Ah, thought so. That's interesting that the counter duration is the same, I always thought Marth had a slightly longer one for some reason. Oh well.

 

[_Sync_]

Just because I'm new doesn't mean I don't know anything. I've been playing Brawl since it came out. And almost since it came out I've been playing Ike. I've been playing Marth a pretty long time too. I know how both of them work. Trust me.

The went for me as well, but the difference between us too is that I traveled to places for match-up experience. Not only that, but notice the shift in playstyle when switching characters. When playing as Ike, I understand how it is to be pressured by an experienced Marth player; I understand there are many a times when I may have to go to do defense or use my offense as a line of defense. When playing Marth, I understand how crucial it is to strike my opponent down after getting passed their defenses. To dive in at the slightest opening I can spot.

And when making conclusions about character match-ups, try analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of both characters and how effectively to use them rather than looking at the main's strong points only.

Also, this match-up is anything but Ike's favor.

 

[Ussi]

Ah, thought so. That's interesting that the counter duration is the same, I always thought Marth had a slightly longer one for some reason. Oh well.

It only feels longer because Marth is left more open after counter frames are over.

 

[Guilhe]

Believe us princess, Marth has the advantage here. I guess I should put up the next character discussion by now, thanks for the write-up Ussi.

 

[A New England Winter]

Ike wins 100-0 vs. Marth in the Manliness Ratio. That's all that matters.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Ike wins 100-0 vs. Marth in the Manliness Ratio. That's all that matters.

..wtf?
But only 90-10 in the getting girls ratio because some girls are gaysexuals LOLOLOL

(I kind of thought this sort of thread was... -serious-... or something. Please pardon my lack of silliness in previous posts.)

 

[A New England Winter]

But only 90-10 in the getting girls ratio because some girls are gaysexuals LOLOLOL

Nah man it's 100-0 Ike.

Ike's Fair is bigger than Marth's. Size matters.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

Have you been in any tournaments?

Yes.

Have you faced/beaten anyone noteworthy?

Yes.

Do you know that wifi is worthless for match-up discussions?

Yes.

I'm seriously guessing "no" as your response to all three.

Nope, all three were yes. And whether you all disagree with me or not, I find Ike easier to play than Marth, and I still find Ike hard to get good with. I also find I do better against Marth with Ike than most other characters, the only exceptions being Bowser and Ganny.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Okay, guys. Enough.
It's clear that the discussion has strayed from the match-up because there's nothing left to say. Let's just post it and get on with a new one. And stop arguing.

 

[theeboredone]

Btw, just for general consensus people, while match ups are based off of data and science (if that's what you want to call it), it can't be helped but to say that opinion is always an input. While there can be several cases made for why one move out prioritizes another and vice versa, in the end, it will come down to the general consensus and their opinions. Let me explain with an example...

Talks about Marth's F-Air vs Ike's F-Air can be broken down in a logical sense.

Marth's F-Air comes out faster, has less start up and ending lag, therefore, giving him more of an opportunity to space.

Ike's F-Air is stronger, farther, wider, therefore, while he does have the range, he can only execute the move once in the air, limiting his spacing ability.

So on paper, some people can perceive that Marth has the advantage, because he has the speed and mobility against Ike. Others would say that Ike has the advantage in this area, because his attack reaches further, giving him more of an area to cover in one go. If we are simply going off of this and not the chances of error by the user, then the vote can go either way. While each side can go deeper into discussion about why their respective move is better in comparison, in the end, the general consensus will determine what's the favor. If more sway with Marth's move, then so be it.

In conclusion, while some still believe that Ike can stand up to Marth, the general consensus was made that Marth has the advantage. So Emblem Princess, while your logic in some aspects was respectable, the counter made arguments and the general consensus on it was favored towards Marth. So just because you find the Marth match up easy, it doesn't make the match up in Ike's favor. In my experience, the Olimar match up is a 50-50 bargain, where in reality it is not.

Match ups should be based on logic and common sense, not opinions and senseless statements.

Fin.

 

[Narigo1]

Is Castle Siege a good counterpick stage against Marth?

 

[Melfice z]

Yes.

And whether you all disagree with me or not, I find Ike easier to play than Marth, and I still find Ike hard to get good with. I also find I do better against Marth with Ike than most other characters, the only exceptions being Bowser and Ganny.

First off you know the usability of a character, especially just to you, is completely irrelevent in the discussion. And its been said that the vast majority of marths arent competent enough to live up to the matchup ratio, so most likely you just play marths that arent good at the ike vs marth matchup.

Edit: And LOL at saying you play ganon well against marth. its not 80:20 marths favor for no reason

Is Castle Siege a good counterpick stage against Marth?

( D'oh, fix'd) to awnser your question, yes. It slightly favors you in some ways such as safe(er) aethers and low platforms which are always good for platform abuse.

 

[Ussi]

Melifice, Narigo asked in a proper place, this is the Marth discussion and its ALIVE so its fine to ask.

First part is bad, 2nd is somewhat good, and 3rd is good.



First is bad since its a smaller BF... 2nd is somewhat good cause platforms can be used against you but you can't be gimped. 3rd is good cause no platforms and there is some space. Tilting can screw with gimping a bit.

Up to you in the end... some Marths like it since its the Fire Emblem stage lol

 

[EmblemPrincess]

Edit: And LOL at saying you play ganon well against marth. its not 80:20 marths favor for no reason

No, I said I play Ike against Ganny and Bowser well. :/

 

[Melfice z]

Geez, another misunderstanding ... that still has nothing to do with the topic at hand, however

 

[Palpi]

In my experience, the Olimar match up is a 50-50 bargain, where in reality it is not.

The match up isn't 50-50 in your experience. 50-50 is just how well you have been doing against bad Olimar's who can't capitalize Ike's blatant weaknesses. It isn't the match up in your experience it is just how good you do or how bad your opponent does, considering a "matchup" is both characters at the top level of play.

Nope, all three were yes. And whether you all disagree with me or not, I find Ike easier to play than Marth, and I still find Ike hard to get good with. I also find I do better against Marth with Ike than most other characters, the only exceptions being Bowser and Ganny.

Considering Ike is not tournament viable, obviously Ike is hard to get "good" with, but Marth is in fact a hard character to play. Many top marths have came to the conclusion that they need to play 100% perfect including flawless spacing to win a national tournament or a regional tournament with good metaknight representation.

Is Castle Siege a good counterpick stage against Marth?

I don't think Ike can successfully counter-pick a stage against marth. He just how to significantly out play him on smashville or battlefield. Honestly FD might be your best choice. It is really a toss up.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Of course Ike is tourney viable, you know Ice Climbers, he can take them, R.O.B. to, he just not well played in tourney's for versus of reasons. But in a serous note, any character that's scores less than C tier isn't tourney viable, (except Ness). †

♪ Most people agree with 35/65 Marth eh? I kind of disagree, but I'll have to see why people clam that ratio for myself. †

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can we do Diddy Kong next? I find that much-up fun. XD

 

[EmblemPrincess]

♪ Of course Ike is tourney viable, you know Ice Climbers, he can take them, R.O.B. to, he just not well played in tourney's for versus of reasons.

QFT.

Ike owns Ganny too. He can be used in tourneys. Heck, I played in a tourney where a Link made it to the freaking finals and he's much lower than Ike. If Link can do that, Ike surely can.

 

[Steel]

it's not ike or link doing it, it's the player being far better than the competition lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

it's not ike or link doing it, it's the player being far better than the competition lol

Which is exactly what I say about Reflex and PT, but nobody listens to me in the Brawl Tier List topic. >_>

 

[Marauder]

QFT.

Ike owns Ganny too. He can be used in tourneys. Heck, I played in a tourney where a Link made it to the freaking finals and he's much lower than Ike. If Link can do that, Ike surely can.

LOL. Just LOL.

Personally, I'd like to do Falco next. Need ALOT of insight on that match-up.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

Well, you know what I meant. And there were some pretty dang good players in this tourney too. In fact, the opponent of the Link who got to the finals was a Lucario, I believe. Everyone was surprised to see the Link make it to the final round.

As I said, if Link can do this well in a tourney, so can Ike. Ike players unite! XD

 

[Steel]

if Ike ever does anything note worthy in tourny it's because of the player lol. ike isn't viable.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

if Ike ever does anything note worthy in tourny it's because of the player lol. ike isn't viable.

Neither is anyone not in S tier. >_> That's not a really big point. Anyone out of S tier has at least one match-up/flaw that can screw them over to the point the player has to work around it, and it's not the character's doing.

 

[Steel]

yeah, and? lol

marth is garbage too because meta knight exists. MK is marth's ceiling from ever doing anything people will care about

 

[§leepy God]

♪ lol, I and here I thought that any character that's B Tier or higher were tourney viable, who knew. XD †

♪ With that being said, only advantage Ike has is better range, knockback, and spikes, that's why I thought that this match up is 40/60 Marth, but those advantages I just said doesn't really help the match up if Ike can't get a hit. And if Ike runs out of jumps when he's coming back, it's basicly one stock out, (Counter Attack). >.< †

 

[Guilhe]

Can we do Diddy Kong next? I find that much-up fun. XD

Requests at the main matchup thread, and no. Falco was requested first.

♪ With that being said, only advantage Ike has is better range, knockback, and spikes, that's why I thought that this match up is 40/60 Marth, but those advantages I just said doesn't really help the match up if Ike can't get a hit. And if Ike runs out of jumps when he's coming back, it's basicly one stock out, (Counter Attack). >.< †

Again, DI up and QD to the stage and you'll live. This is like the tenth time it was brought up and I’m not bothering on reminding the next ten until I post my write-up.

 

[tocador]

Reflex made PT tournament viable :D!

And so did DOC make ike viable here in brasil U.u

 

[theeboredone]

The match up isn't 50-50 in your experience. 50-50 is just how well you have been doing against bad Olimar's who can't capitalize Ike's blatant weaknesses. It isn't the match up in your experience it is just how good you do or how bad your opponent does, considering a "matchup" is both characters at the top level of play.

I'm gonna have to disagree a bit on this. I just find that my style of play allows me to do better against Olimars than your typical Ike. While I do better against Olimars than most Ike players, I struggle more against Lucarios and DKs than I really should. However, it is correct on the fact that on paper, Olimar should be able to capitalize on Ike's flaws very well. My style of play is more of a "human" aspect rather than facts and logic.

 

[Guilhe]

Tocador, what happens in Brazil, stays in Brazil. See you in Anime Friends.

Back to business, write-up by Yagami Light:

Marth

Recommended Counterpick: Corneria / Brinstar

Let's give a friendly shout-out to Marth, your co-Fire Emblem character. With the introductions out of the way, let's just see what is scary about Marth, shall we? First of all, he appears to dye his hair, so he can never hope to achieve Ike's pure blue coloring. Actually, what IS scary about him is that not only does he have raw speed, power and range all perfectly placed into one character, but he is also one of the few characters who can gimp Aether, so you're going to have to hope that your edge game isn't the only good thing about your Ike. That said, Marth has his own issues, which will be covered next.

You're going to have to win this by exploiting Marth's weaknesses. Unfortunately, Marth is a pretty good character whose weaknesses aren't easily used to your advantage. First of all, similar to Meta Knight, Marth weighs as much as a feather does. Ike has the power to consistently kill Marth at low percents, the main issue is, however, landing the blows. Marth also has no safe kill moves. What does that essentially mean? It means that for Marth to kill you, YOU are going to have to mess up. It's a trying match, since Marth is also good at punishing mistakes. The solution is, of course, to play perfectly. If you play aggressively, Marth is going to utilize his 4 frame counter to counter your attack back for 1.1x damage. If, however, you stick to defense, Marth can then just pressure you with Shieldbreakers and Dancing Blades. The key is to, essentially, keep Marth guessing. Don't always instantly unleash your attacks whenever he's in range either. Much like you might use the airdodge to bait an up smash, you use some waiting time to bait the counter, and hit with any of your powerful moves. Be sure to note that Marth's recovery can be edgehogged with good timing. If you take advantage of that, you'll gain the upper hand.

Of course, our fellow Fire Emblem character is not to be taken lightly. The first thing you should be trying to do as soon as the match starts is to not get grabbed. The reason for this isn't a chaingrab, but the fact that Marth has a combo that goes: Fthrow->Tippered Fsmash. Marth's signature Forward Smash is a beastly move, and this combo'll deal near 25% on you. It won't work at later percentages, but it's always a good idea not to be grabbed in any match. Speaking of 25%, that's how much a NAir to AAA jab does, and you should be using your Neutral Aerial much more than your Forward Aerial in this match, though that doesn't mean you shouldn't mix up your options, of course. The general idea is to build up damage, then bait a wrong move and destroy our friend at obscenely low percents. And, on the topic of building damage, try not to leave any lag for Marth to exploit, since he can instantly punish you with a Dancing Blade combo that can do up to 18% I believe. He'll generally do the standard variant, but don't get too confident by overshielding and side-stepping the last move. Why is this? Because that last move can be the multiple hit down version. If you get hit by that, it's not terrible, just DI. Another thing to note is that Marth has a famous sweetspot tipper at the end of his sword. This means that his attacks have increased knockback and damage if he hits you with those. The logical thing to do, then, is to get close to Marth. Your jab, jab cancel (Though look out for the Dolphin Slash!) and grabs should all be used interchangeably so as to rack up damage and harass Marth.

Now that you are pestering him, he decides to take to the air, in hopes that your aerial game sucks and you'll die there due to his superb juggling skills. Unfortunately, your aerials most certainly do not suck and you've got ground based options as well. Remember that you outrange his Fair with yours, but be wary of being predictable. If he decides to retreat backwards, you can hit him with a dash attack. The main thing to remember is that Marth has a blind spot right below him in the air. This means that when you get him there, you've got plenty of things to use on him and all he can really do is Counter. If he tries to counter, just charge past the counter frames and hit him with an even more powerful attack! Now, Marth is recovering (Let's pretend that you knocked him sideways). His Shieldbreaker can help him recover, but it's predictable, so punish it. The Up B only goes up, so Eruption can teach him a little lesson in that. If he gets ledge happy, you've got a very fine Dtilt spike you can use against him. If, let's say, you're the one recovering, make sure not to get predictable. Save your second jump so you don't have to deal with Counter/Aether mindgames much. If Marth seems to be fairly close, he may try to edge hog the reverse Aether, just be wary and plan accordingly. Your best idea is to just try and get back on with great DI and a little sense, as over the edge Marth has more control than you do. On a last note, in this match-up, sometimes the basics work really well. Simply walking back a bit and attacking with say, a forward smash, is viable and will kill Marth quite fast.

Choosing a stage for this match-up is actually kind of hard to do. For all practical purposes, you're rather similar when it comes to stages. Just choose what stage you play best on and go from there. If you must choose a neutral, Halberd works well enough. The low ceiling helps you kill even earlier, and the neutral platform design punishes Marth's up b to the extreme. Counterpick wise, you've always got Corneria, your trusty side-kick. Brinstar also works, due to Aethersliding.

On the whole, Marth's got the tools to punish you, kill you early and gimp you. On the other side of the coin, Marth also has predictable kill moves, a predictable recovery and a light build. Using these to your advantage will allow you to rob Marth of his stocks quite fast. The main idea is to not be predictable and to stay away from the sides of the stage at all costs.

 

[tocador]

I wont be able to go to anime sorry xP!!!

And cmon, why not tell these us that ike is cool xP!!!!!!

but now stoping with off topic

I cant see ike x Marth being 7-3, just no. I know ike has disavantages, but not that much! I still think spaced fairs can roally screw a fair :D!

 

[§leepy God]

Again, DI up and QD to the stage and you'll live. This is like the tenth time it was brought up and I’m not bothering on reminding the next ten until I post my write-up.

♪ Oh I know that, I didn't say you'll die everytime, (though I did say you will lose a stock, lol), it's just that's it's annoying that you have to deal with it and Marth can perform this on a good select characters that have to use Up B or Side B when coming back and Ike being one of those characters. †

 

[exdia_16]

i say that ike should have a better recovery and then marth would hav a disadvantage but until then marth bend ike over lol

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

yeah, and? lol

marth is garbage too because meta knight exists. MK is marth's ceiling from ever doing anything people will care about

Doesn't marth have 4 bad match ups now though? at least thats what my friend has been telling me. I only know of DDD snake and MK being bad for him but he said another heavy was starting to be bad for him.

I'm gonna have to disagree a bit on this. I just find that my style of play allows me to do better against Olimars than your typical Ike. While I do better against Olimars than most Ike players, I struggle more against Lucarios and DKs than I really should. However, it is correct on the fact that on paper, Olimar should be able to capitalize on Ike's flaws very well. My style of play is more of a "human" aspect rather than facts and logic.

meh I wouldn't be to sure on that bored the only good olimar in texas is error13. You can look at tournament results and there no comparisen error got 13th at whobo while the other olimar or olimars? got 65th i think and if there where more they didn't make it out of pools.

Infact error13 made the hylian and the G&W boards reconsider the match up and i think its olimars advantage now or at least a neutral. Not to mention he is ranked 14th in the power rankings now.

Shouldn't we have another thread by now though?