Marth matchup discussion

[§leepy God]

♪ Anyone who says 60:40 Marth is correct, thanks to Ike's recovery moves, Marth can just counter them all and call it a day when Marth knocks Ike out of the stage. It's a sad sight to see and since I use both characters, I should know. ); †

 

[Palpi]

I would have to agree with Ryko, it is very hard for Ike to space against Marth without getting eventually punished and hurt significantly. I would say it is more around 6.5-3.5 - 7-3.

Hey fighting pierce is fun when you punish his counter with a fsmash. (lol@december draft crews)

 

[Steel]

well im glad to see the discussion got more intelligent as the thread went on

looks like my job here is done

*flips back his cape as he walks away

 

[san.]

Yo... Marth sucks =(

For me, it has to be like 35:65 in favor of marth.
A marth who knows the matchup right should be able to **** Ike offstage with ease. Other than MK, no other character can really do that if Ike conserves his double jump and DIs right.

Ike has some tools to space against marth, but marth's aerial maneuverability and speed+ sideB punishing makes it a pain to go aerial against a marth who won't just run into it. Marth can run faster than you can jump away, so it's only a matter of time. A skilled Ike can get around this, although it involves outsmarting the marth.

Ike can't really outspace marth easily to get in some damage because he's not as fast in the air/on the ground. Ike can't really jab marth much, because other than jab1-->jab1, Marth can SDI+DS out. It really sucks.

The good thing is, it doesn't take marth much to get to kill range. Marth is weak from below, and he can't outrange your smashes, so marth can really only dodge, shield, or jump most of the time, which limits some of his options and leaves him fewer to choose from. Ike can get a couple jabs on marth and try to outpredict aerial attacks (if jab-->jab is a true combo, Ike can jab-->shield, too), especially since the best way to get out is just through fair/DS anyways. Ike is also heavy and pretty hard to kill, and Ike can choose levels/cps that favor him a lot easier than marth can.

It's between 65:35 and 60:40, depending on which aspects of the game you focus on and how much emphasis they're worth.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

First off, reverse aether will cause Marth to hit the other way BUT he he does it OFF STAGE then you WILL get staged spiked if you don't tech it. Big emphasis on tech but then you need to tech the DS that's gonna come.

You could also just wall tech and that would put you out of reach of the DS. It should happen automatically since you should be DIing up to try and avoid the stage.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's probably 60:40 Marth, but 95% of Marths suck.

 

[theeboredone]

Too lazy to provide a detailed post, but there are some general ideas worth repeating (Since it's probably been stated by others).

Marth has more room for error, and can afford to make more mistakes than Ike.

Ike players need to concentrate on playing more smartly, and avoid falling into a trap of losing focus.

A Smart Marth player will probably dictate your recover. They will do what is required to gimp you accordingly.

While these match ups are determined by the character's moves and uses for each move, and not the mental part of the person using the character, I can't help but feel that's a little bit naive. In the end, human error is going to be involved.

I think we need to develop some human error or at least an Ike error equation.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think the match up might be more 65:35 but its just like hero said most marths suck. Theres just a huge difference between a good marth and a mediocre one, more so that other characters.

 

[Marauder]

So shall we agree with the Marths and leave it at 60-40?

 

[Ussi]

Majority of us are going 35-65 o.o;;

>.> I'm actually starting to use Pikachu over Ike against Marth.... And Marth is Pika's worst MU...

 

[Steel]

Yeah, after looking at this match again I may want to move it to 65 35 Marth. That is if we are all in agreement here.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That wouldn't make sense though. Why would it get worse for us if nothing new has been found that affects this match-up?

 

[Ussi]

its not that nothing new has happened, its just we thought it wasn't as bad as it was.

 

[Steel]

We initially had it at 65 35.

After the discussion something inclined me to change it to 60 40, but I have no idea what and don't think its accurate. 65 35 imo

 

[Teh Brettster]

I will agree with 65-35. That's about where everyone seems to put it.

Done?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm sorry, but when I play the match, it does not play like a 35-65 D.

When I watch videos of respected Ikes going against Marths, it doesn't seem as hard as say, Lucario, who is 35-65 without a doubt. It seems easier.

I flat out do not see 35-65 in any possible way.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Niddo, I promise.
You probably haven't played that many good Marths.
This is not 6-4. It's tougher than that.

 

[Marauder]

65-35 really is accurate. 60-40 doesn't do it justice. Hell at times it feels like 70-30 when you're getting gimped 3 times in the space of 2 minutes...

So 65-35 is the final ratio. Thanks for coming Steel.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Like I said niddo theres a big difference between a mediocre marth and a good one. With marth you have to play near perfect to get the results you should be getting.

Even though I've beaten well known marths in texas I still think the match up is 65-35. I think it was mainly that i had more match up experience than them.

 

[theeboredone]

Who cares if it's 35-65? If we win, it's more of a better feeling xD. Rub it into their faces.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

thats pretty much what i say now. Ike sucks but we're all stuck using him so admit it and win with him.

 

[_Sync_]

I lean towards Marth's side for the match-up. I value the pride that Ike players have towards their main, but logic reigns surpreme overall.

Marth has a plethora of moves that can be used for various situations, such as stalling with DB or using it to rack up damage. Dtilt shieldpokes from time to time and can often lead to several strings of attacks. Two fairs can be used in a single short hop, etc.

Because Marth outspeeds Ike, it causes use to resort to using his quicker moves, primarily jab, utilt, nair and bair. Right there, Ike's attack options have been limited (excluding the bthrow to DA) to four moves, and throw in fair for zoning purposes. It's not going to take long before the Ike player becomes as readable as a children's picture book.

An arguement that was made was that Ike can outrange Marth, and that with proper spacing. Yes Ike has range, but does he have the capability to continuously dish out move after move to keep Marth at bay? The answer to that is no. Ike can attempt to keep his distance, but fair will always have a bit of landing lag unless full hopped which isn't really as advised.Retreating aerials will only get you so far until you corner yourself at the edge of the stage, and honestly it tends to happen to the best of us (maybe no so much with more advanced players).

Another one of Marth's strong points would be that tipper at the end which adds additional damage and has heightened knockback. Marth may be outranged by Ike, but a good Marth player can always land a tipper hit somehow.

Ike's weight also plays against him in this match up (like in most other match-ups). By being moderately heavy, Ike is proned to being juggled, which is something Marth can do well so avoid stages with platforms since Marth can better utilize them.

Now I'm not saying that Marth is some undefeatable diety because even a god can be slayed, and the slayer is declared the new god. Marth may be quick and nimble, but only to accomodate his light weight. He can be killed at earlier percentages, but provided if the killing blow can be made.

A common trait in Marth players I've encountered is that they tend to be overly aggressive. The reason why I find that as a plus is because overly aggression is often a sign of impatience that can be taken advantage of. Here's a clip demonstating it of Rykoshet vs my childhood rival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK4OzOD_V70&feature=related



In this match-up, it's speed and efficiency that claims victory. But a deeper level, keep in mind that most arguements are hypothetical cases and that there is no player who can play true to every key point argued. Overall, the match is depending on the cunning of both players and how effectively they can exploit the strengths and weaknesses of the characters.

I might be back with more later today.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So it's 35-65 in the theoretical best of both characters realm, but likely 4-6 or 45-55 in the real realm given that apparently the vast majority of Marths suck?

 

[HeroMystic]

So it's 35-65 in the theoretical best of both characters realm, but likely 4-6 or 45-55 in the real realm given that apparently the vast majority of Marths suck?

More or less.

 

[Ussi]

Yes, most Marths don't understand the key aspects of spacing and zoning properly and jump into the **** a lot.


EDIT: Hero your avatar is hawt

 

[Teh Brettster]

Niddo, not really, no. It's 35-65 in reality. But once in a while, you might find a Marth that isn't great. If that's the case, count it as better than 35-65 for THAT SPECIFIC match.
But against a Marth that's any good, count it as 35-65 and no better. Skill of players who aren't good does not influence match-up numbers. That's just plain silly.

Which is why we're counting the whole match-up as 35-65.

 

[HeroMystic]

If I would have to judge this match-up by using my experience against Marth players, I'd put as neutral. It really takes an awesome Marth player to show you the reality of the match-up ratio, which is something I've only seen in vids.

35:65 is a good ratio, but it'll often not feel like that.

EDIT: Hero your avatar is hawt

I know, which is why I put it up.

 

[Guilhe]

His attacks are too slow to reliably zone with. And why do you keep going on about platform abuse? This is something EVERY character has against Marth. However, Marth also very good platform control, counter picking battlefield against Marth is a bad move.

I didn't say DS made jab bad, I said it made it less reliable than it usually. It's still one of the best tools in the match up, but Marth can easily outspace it.

Because Ike can punish harder with platform abuse than most characters in the game, maybe even Marth, so counterpicking Battlefield might be a good idea if the Ike player thrusts his platform game.

Marth can't zone Ike? lol

Have you seen Marth's dtilt? It covers every freaking option you have, and if it touches your shield you're taking damage, no questions. Marth is too fast of an attacker to say Ike can't be zoned. Ike's tools don't allow him to compete with it. He has no reliable way to get away from fair, dtilt, and jab zoning.

You don't even know what I'm saying. Ike's jab could do 100% for all I care, it still isn't a RELIABLE way to rack up damage with because Marth can outspace/outspeed him.

Reliable and consistent doesn't mean "how much damage do these attacks do," it means "do I have ways to consistently hit Marth with these attacks?" Marth on the other hand, definitely does.

It's 65-35 or 60-40, Marth boards gave it 60-40 simply because of Ike's KO power and he's heavy.

Jab the Dtilt, it's faster and clanks in simultaneous contact. Powershielding the Dtilt also leads to Jab punishment. I didn't said Ike can't be zoned. Marth has the advantage in mobility and frame advantage in his attacks needed for zooning the Ike player at tipper range, but Ike has his zones too in which he can rely (like closer to Marth or just beyond tipper range). He does better against Marth than a lot of characters who don't have disjointed hitbox or a range similar to Ike's.

Probably because whenever I do match up discussions I often walk into a thread where most people don't have a clue about Marth and try to act like they know what they're talking about. see: Guilhe

Most of the first page was garbage, I'm sure you could see that. You seem like one of the smarter Ike's in this community. But hey, most Marth's have an elitist attitude in match up debates. But we have huge ego's too when it comes to board quality.

I don't main or play Marth myself, I'm not here to preach the absolute truth of the Ike vs. Marth matchup, I'm just exposing my point of view and promoting a discussion on them. Of course, how can one debate anything against an argument like “Ike cant reliably do (insert situation here). Why? Because Marth is a better character and you don't know what you're saying”? You're not discussing or exposing your points of view, you're just calling anyone who doesn't agree with stupid. Very elitist of your part.

 

[comboking]

40-60 Marth's favor.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

40-60 Marth's favor.

Get off the board. Out, out already. We don't need more clueless idiots hanging around here, and at least new Ike users can actually learn and don't make your eyes bleed quite as badly from the lack of logic in their posts. You didn't even flipping back up your statement. You're still just as big of a joke as ever.

 

[Ussi]

Guilhe i respect you as a player, but I have played Steel2nd first hand on BF with Ike and it wasn't pretty.

I am probably thinking no one in Brazil has a component Marth to show you the terror Marth brings on Ike.

 

[Melfice z]

After reading whats been said by Sync... im inclined to say 35/65 too. Whos still in disagreement?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

After reading whats been said by Sync... im inclined to say 35/65 too. Whos still in disagreement?

Me, but I apparently lack experience against good Marths.

It still doesn't make sense when I go over the facts in my head, but w/e.

 

[Melfice z]

Ive found that many over-aggressive marths are more prone to errors and errors against ike is usually hurt... a lot but on the other hand a handful of the marths i play wait for me to make the first move and not even a perfectly spaces f-air is totally safe... what im trying to say is its not really the skill of the marth but also who is approaching who during the match is huge...

afterreading the posts above i also have to say, the skill of the marth doesnt shouldnt effect ratio.
isnt it based on two players of the same skill using the two mentioned characters??

 

[HeroMystic]

It's two top-skilled players with minimal mistakes.

We're not saying the match-up is any lower than 65:35 because there are hardly any skilled Marths, just that there are very few Marth mains that'll live up to that ratio.

 

[Guilhe]

Guilhe i respect you as a player, but I have played Steel2nd first hand on BF with Ike and it wasn't pretty.

I am probably thinking no one in Brazil has a component Marth to show you the terror Marth brings on Ike.

I doubt that’s the case but anyway, I’ll take back that 50:50 ratio, Marth truly has the advantage. I deeply regret mentioning this ratio so early as to direct the discussion straight to “who has the advantage” before going through approach, punishment, etc. I feel I still haven’t all the information needed for making a good write-up, and with Steel2nd quitting after jerking-off with a 60:40 ratio and “mission complete”, I don’t think I will anytime soon. Care to elaborate one Ussi?

Everyone else, don’t worry on closing in a single ratio, remember that our system allows room for multiple ratios. So just post the ratio that you see fit and justify it, (see the comboking one liner as an example of what NOT to do) that it shall be accepted and measured at the GCMR (General Consensus Matchup Ratio) and the AMR (Average Matchup Ratio).

 

[Ussi]

Well I'll give you what i can give:

Marth, our Fire Emblem counterpart in brawl.. Slightly less range than us but a considerable speed difference. With his fair coming out in 4 frames and better aerial mobility to weave into his comfort zone, it's tough to zone Marth effectively as our comfort zone is very small as we don't outrange him that badly. To do anything to Marth, you have to basically have to be 3-4 steps ahead of him which in turn means you are at a disadvantage if you are required to think that hard.

Now with approaching, it can go either way as both lack a projectile, however Marth has speed to quickly switch from offensive to defensive and vise versa quickly and more effectively than Ike. What Ike has to do, is either outrange with fair, Predict his AD, or jab him. That's the general idea. When jabbing, Marth will DS you if you are not perfect with your jab cancels. You can, however, lure a DS happy Marth as jab > shield will block DS.

Once Marth hits you with a fair, he can keep the pressure going and in his favor too. Dtilt pretty much traps Ike and shield pokes well. His DB racks damage quickly, 16% or so fresh. He has one of the best platform abuse games in brawl with utilt and uair. He can juggle a bit, but Ike has dair + eruption to avoid jugging. Counter is 4 frames, and our fastest move after jab is 13 frames... Yea on reaction its easy to wipe it out on Ike. Baiting a counter happy Marth is fully welcome though.

Luckily, Marth has no safe kill moves, so you can use that to your advantage.. You still get edge guarded easily which doesn't help though..

Edgeguarding will normally get you gimped. As Marth can just DS any edgeguard attempt you throw at him or just DB to stall you away.

Marth counters Ike's recovery. Counter beats Aether, Marth can DS while being hit by Aether, QD is a fail recovery.. so yea.. If Marth stays on stage, space aether so it doesn't hit Marth.

What stage? you want SPACE, you want the biggest stage you can get to have more room and stage to stay on. FD is the best for being big and no platforms for Marth to abuse on you. BF is a very risky stage, small and platforms for Marth to wreck you on.

In the end: You can't hope to do anything off stage. If you recover, it was the Marth's mistake. You're only hope is to stay on the stage and capitalize on Marth's mistakes and make as very little as possible. You can do something on stage, but its hard to maintain control when Marth can get you off stage with some ease. It's possible to win, its a uphill battle though.

Ratio: 35-65

 

[DMG]

35:65 sounds about right. Wario Marth is 40:60 so Ike having a slightly harder time would make sense at 35:65.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

My Ike vs Marth matches make me think the same thing as the threadmaker. Honestly. Ike outranges Marth, he outpowers Marth, and outspikes him. Also, Aether > Dolphin Slash. There's a bunch of things Ike can do with Aether. Recover, Aether-spiking in two different ways at the edge of the stage, combo it with dthrow, and more. Dolphin Slash is only good for slight comboing, recovery, and gimping some characters' jabs.

Plus, Marth is extremely vulnerable if Dolphin Slash misses. Ike, not so much. He gets super armor, plus Aether finishes up quickly.

Another thing, Ike's Counter > Marth's Counter. Marth's comes out faster, but Ike's has the advantage of doing more damage and lasting longer.

Next, I find it a lot easier to spike with Ike than Marth. Haha, that's so funny. Spike with Ike. lol. Anyway, Ike's spiking is so beastly it isn't even funny. He can gimp edge-canceling with dtilt, combo dair with a bthrow or fthrow at the edge of the stage, or Aether-spike two ways. One, while Ike is recovering, resulting in a backfire on a possible edge-guard attempt, and the second way, which is harder to pull off, while Ike is facing the edge of the stage and the opponent is away from that stage edge. Ike even has a fourth spike known as Eruption, although this is the hardest to pull off. Even I'm not positive if my success-look-alikes in the attempt to do it were true successes.

Really, at most, this match up is 55-45, Ike's favor. Ike's only disadvantages are Marth's speed and Dancing Blade. Also, if a Marth can pull it off, Ike is screwed if he manages to start edge guarding him with fair.

I'll end this post by saying you all should remember that this is coming from a player who uses both Ike and Marth frequently.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

.....You're new here EP. There are so many things wrong with your post I don't even know where to start.