Marth match-up thread

[zapdose]

Whats going on with mew2king and you emblem?...

Also, whats the proper way to escape the CG with marth from falco from 0-30? You mentioned it but you didn't mention a solution on escaping.

I think you can jab or Up+B out of it. Not sure though, I'd have to test.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh?

M2K and I worked it out.

Also, you can up b out of the CG at anytime and after about 30% you could jump out, but Falco will just do dash attack to u-smash at a slightly lower percent to prevent that from happening.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

Glad to see Falco at an advantage and Metaknight even now

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly, I have no problem with saying a character has advantage as long as the evidence is there.

 

[hizzlum]

The few people in brawl that have a clear advantage in brawl over marth are those with rapid fire projectiles. Marth has a limited approach on them negating with the shield, counter and his high priority that will cancel out the projectile. Campers are marths biggest thrat and wise counterpicks would be battlefield, yoshi's island (ssbb) and lylat cruise, and smashvillwe(debatable) which give marth cover and allow him to spam uptilt if they get caught on the platforms

 

[Emblem Lord]

No.

Campers are not Marth's biggest threat.

Stop buying into the projectile camper hype ok?

Marth deals with projectiles just fine like he did in Melee.

If anything the only reason alot of characters even stand a chance is because they have a projectile to aid them. If Pit didn't have a projectile Marth would run through him like a freight train and the same can be said for many other characters.

 

[hizzlum]

Ur right that if Pit did'nt have the arrows marth would get an easy approach and start easy combos
But how does marth actually deal with some falco who uses a laser at the start of the match? its the most annoying aspect of marth in my opinion

 

[Emblem Lord]

Falco's lasers are annoying, but not deadly.

You can jump over them, roll, use platforms, eat a laser and just DI towards him to attack him when you are close, and you can double jump. You can also counter when you are close enough.

Honestly it's the shine that's more annoying. Someone needs to test if Marth can SH over it.

But even with lasers, Falco can't kill for **** and and he is easy to gimp. Falco has to fight up close sooner or later to kill Marth and Marth > Falco at close range. This match-up is only slightly in Falco's favor, and yes it's mostly due to camping, and the fact that Falco has an easy combo on Marth.

But Marth is a better killer, with better range, better close range options and can take more punishment then Falco can.

Camping is only one aspect of the game and you can't win through projectile camping alone. Unless they run out the clock, but that is highly unlikely and if they run away the whole match they risk getting hit or killed due to predictability.

 

[hizzlum]

This will really help when I play noobs who camp on me, thanks emblem lord

 

[k4polo]

I think he a bit biased too Marth but it cant be help i suppose. Good matchups thread in general. IT is pretty fair for the most part. This thread even got My Marth a bit better and yet I don't Main him but sure I could switch him to secondary.

Dedede is a deceiving character. He doesn't look that good but he is really good. HE has good spacing and has a great defensivegame. Marth vs a very smart defensive Dedede is a tough match-up indeed. Dedede is very Hard to play as he is defensive based while marth is offensive based. Dedede Tilts and special moves seem to be more effective defensively.

Playing the "Spacing Game" doesn't work to well against Dedede as they can block then chain grab. F tilt(when you far away),U tilt(if you too close, has priority as well,fastand KOs) and Waddle Dee(Far away). Just with these he can out space Marth in certain instances. D- tilt of Dedede be useful if Marth is too close. Plus hes a heavy character. This is all IMO though.

Basically from an Offensive standpoint,DeDeDe doesn't have much on Marth(dedede isn't going to take the initiative and be offensive for most part), but defensively he is a big threat to Marth and well just about any character. Approaching DeDeDe can be very difficulty for just about any character as to why he is mostly likely top/high tier.

I am not Dedede player but this is what I have observe about him.

 

[knightpraetor]

what did you mean by falco's easy combo on marth?

 

[rx-007]

sorry i dont know if this was covered in the previous posts but i dont see how marth could have an advantage over dk. if dk's attacks are spaced properly it's really hard to find an opening because a lot of them have little after lag. if anybody could give me some advice on the dk match up that would be great

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes. I agree. Dedede as a character isn't that good. What makes him good is the fact that he takes advantage of the defensive nature of competitive Brawl. He can shield camp and take alot of punishment thanks to his weight and just wait for grabs. If you make a mistake he can punish you with a CG for good damage. Plus his recovery is good, so gimping him is tougher.

BUT, I already talked about the ways Marth can handle that in previous post, which is why I called it even. Plus Marth can really screw up Dedede's recovery.

Knightpraetor: The hell? I already said what the combo was. Here it is again. CG from 0 to about 30 then dash attack cancelled u-smash.

rx-007: Marth is just a better character then DK. Better moveset overall, faster, better close range options, better edgeguarding. DK is prey for Marth's edgeguarding and DK doesn't have the easiest time landing his kill moves. DK is solid though from what I have seen. Yeah ,he can outspace Marth, but then Marth still has his rushdown. Also DK's f-tilt does have a bit of cool down time that Marth can take advantage of.

What specifically gives you trouble in the DK match-up?

 

[rx-007]

i find that if i dont mix up my approach really well, i get caught in a lot of well spaced f-smashes and shield drop d-smashes. also i don't see how marth can edgeguard the spinning kong since it has such high priority. were you refering to off stage edgeguarding or on-stage edgeguarding? thanks for the help

 

[Emblem Lord]

Off the stage. Just run out and hit him before he initiates his up b.

If you are getting hit by F-smashes then you need to just pay attention to DK a bit more because honestly he really shouldn't be hitting you with those. If you see an F-smash coming just move out of the way or spot dodge.

Try using more f-tilts and d-tilts since they are very safe on block. If you use SH fairs then make sure to DI back when you hit his shield so it's harder to punish you.

Is this a DK you play regularly? If so then this chart may not have much relevance to you. Rivals/training partners tend to know each others styles so well that match-up analysis doesn't apply to them as much.

 

[alchfilosofer]

can't you just counter the UPB of DK?

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

lmao @ how seriously this list is being taken

 

[Emblem Lord]

At least I'm trying tyo do something for the Marth community. That's got to count for something.

Anyway I'll do Olimar since I'm bored.

Olimar is one tough *******. Thankfully his recovery is crap and easily gimped. When Olimar throws Pikmin he is vulnerable for a split second, so take advantage of that time to rush in with a Dancing Blade combo. This would only work if you are already very close though and you would end up getting a Pikin attacked to you, but the combo would knock it off. This can be thwarted if Olimar happens to throw a purple pikmin though since those have actual knockback. Olimar greatly outranges on you on the ground, but can't match you in the air. You will want to use SH approaches. When doing a SHFF fair you can spot dodge, roll, or up b to avoid retaliation of he blocks. You might be able to do dancing blade to stuff any attempts to grab or attack Marth, but I have to test it more.

Don't worry too much if Pikin get attacked to oyu since Marth's attacks cover wide arcs and can easily cut them off. Also you can counter Pikmin as well when they are on you. So if you get close you can use counter to cut Pikmin off and attack Olimar as well. Marth seems to counter in the direction of the Pikmin. So if they are on his back he will counter behind him and if they are on his face or in front of him he will counter in front of him. Keep that in mind.

Olimar's ground moves have great range, but he lags if he misses so take advantage of that and remember that when he throws Pikmin at you, that you can slice them away before they latch onto you.

For the most part I would say to abuse SH fairs and try to stay safe when you land from a fair and punish any mistakes with Dancing Blade. When he is off the stage, cut him down and then go for the ledge. His up b can hit you, but it's nothing to worry about unless you are at higher percents, since it can spike you then.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Update to first post.

 

[pockyD]

At least I'm trying tyo do something for the Marth community. That's got to count for something.

i'm not going to comment on what you've posted or about marth (didn't even read) since i don't know much about him (except he *****), but i disagree with this sentiment -_-

misinformation is worse than no information; once again, not saying you're uninformed or wrong, but i just disagree with the idea that trying is better than nothing

aaand the only reason i'm here is because this post has been at the top of char specific like the last 4x i checked smashboards and your name caught my eye

continue marthing away

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thank you for...uhhhh..contributing nothing to my thread bro.

Still love you though.

 

[BacklashMarth]

i'm not going to comment on what you've posted or about marth (didn't even read) since i don't know much about him (except he *****), but i disagree with this sentiment -_-

misinformation is worse than no information; once again, not saying you're uninformed or wrong, but i just disagree with the idea that trying is better than nothing

aaand the only reason i'm here is because this post has been at the top of char specific like the last 4x i checked smashboards and your name caught my eye

continue marthing away

Then again, nothing ventured nothing gained. No one will argue that no improvement is better than improvement. Chances are that someone will improve their marth using this information so i give Emblem Lord kudos.Advice is just that, advice. Take it with a grain of salt. At least he isn't posting a character bashing thread that benefits no one whatsoever.

 

[V]

i think a smart marth player can match up against almost anybody. just my opinion

 

[Zetsuei]

Marth is just amazing. He and Snake have the most advantages on other characters. Good thing I play as him lol.

 

[Snakeee]

Ok, I was gonna come in here and complain about whatever you put for ZSS....but 6-4 I actually think I agree with that lol. You really think the only match up that is not in his favor is Rob though??? Funny, I don't really think Rob has the advantage, but I only used Marth against him a couple times so I can't argue. I still find it hard to believe that he doesn't have any other match ups against him at all though...>_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uhhh.

What?

Look over the chart again. Falco and Snake are 6/4 on Marth thier advantage.

Also Overswarm and Chozenone one think Marth and ROB go even. Only time will tell on who is correct about that match-up.

 

[Snakeee]

Oh, whoops overlooked those two. Ok, nice thread btw. Most of them seem accurate enough.

 

[Fatalized]

lol...nah Marth all the way

 

[JesiahTEG]

I held a Smashfest at my house tonight, and my Marth was playing very well. I did notice a few things, however.

After playing Kirk's Snake, I'm inclined to view the matchup as 70-30 in Snake's favor...Yes, I truly believe it's that hard. I found myself not being able to do much against Snake, and getting Ftilted out of shield even when I space my Fairs perfectly. It's tough to kill Snake due to his weight, making Marth's killing abilities less useful, when compared to say Ike's or Snake's...Speaking of which, Marth dies much easier than heavy characters, and Snake's power seems to kill Marth of very quickly.

As far as camping goes, it's very tough to stop a campy Snake. With characters like DeDeDe/Toon Link, projectiles are easy to stop because you can swat them away. With Snake however, I could not find a way around C4s, Claymores and if played correctly, Grenades and Usmash even. It's very difficult to keep away from them, especially if the Snake is forcing you to approach.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You can't abuse SH fairs vs Snake.

Treat it like a Marth ditto.

Stay on the ground.

But it may change in the future, so who knows? I see it as 6/4 in Snake's favor for now. What exactly gave you trouble?

Remember that your ground moves outrange his. Fight the habit to abuse SH approaches as it will get you punished. And tippers kill at relatively similar percents regardless of weight. A tipper F-smash can kill Snake in the 80's or low 90's. Tipper D-smash around 130ish. Same for U-smash.

Warrior of Zarona (the mod) is my best friend and plays a good Snake. And all he does is camp me and play really smart and punishes me and we go pretty even. He also reovers high so it's hard to get gimps in, but even with all that I still see it as 6/4 Snake's advantage not 7/3.

Because remember that if Snake messes up Marth can kill him early too. I don't get hit with C4 or mines that much anymore, since I pay attention to placements.

It's hard to fight because you really have to pay attention, but we must remember that match-ups are about play at the highest level of skill and awareness.

Snake overall is easier to use and get a reward with. It's easy to control matches, with Marth it requires alot more thought which can skew your perception on match-ups in general.

That said, I have no idea what the future holds and this could very well be 70/30 for Snake.

*shrugs

 

[BacklashMarth]

I think that once snake gets offstage, a good marth can ahnihilate him. I spike snake out of his recovery on the regular basis. However, my snake probably isn't as hard as Zarona's so that may explain it but my brother is camping "expert" (meaning if the character has a projectile, he uses it over 50% of the time).

 

[JesiahTEG]

I think that's it, that it's harder to use Marth and the rewards are harder to obtain, so my perception of the matchup is skewed. However, I feel like my ground attacks are **** compared to Snake's Ftilt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's interesting cuz every time I use my Dancing Blade or U-smash on WoZ's Snake he says "WTF, Sakurai why did you make those moves so good!?"

Perception.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I just end up getting my moves spotdodged then ftilt...Obviously I wait sometimes for the spotdodge, but I mean I just feel unsafe using ground attacks vs Snake.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spot doding a d-tilt means you are safe or you should be if you roll away. F-tilt...I think so too since it's safe on block when fully spaced, but I have to test it.

If they spotdodge dancing blade...well..just keep going and they will eat the hits.

Alot of it is comfort zone. You really have to know the extent of Snake's hitboxes and when you do you feel more confident fighting game.

Also the last hit of his f-tilt will outrange everything you have cept shieldbreaker I believe, but no good Snake is going to start randomly throwing out f-tilts in the hope that the second one will hit.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Speaking of shield breaker, has anyone else noticed that it is significantly better for breaking shields now. I've actually been able to use this as a bait for spotdodges and to punish rolls. Half the time it even breaks their shield, and the other half of the time their shield is so low that shielding anymore becomes dangerous (thus, they don't get to use the amazing defensive system).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Emblem Lord, since we are still discussing the Snake matchup, I could use some help. I played against a very good Snake today(he won a fairly large tourney with Snake recently) and completely agree with what you are saying, but I couldn't ever seem to win. I could handle the projectiles well enough, but whenever he would just walk towards me or shield -> ftilt, then I always seem to eat the Ftilt or a grab no matter what. Also, Snake almost completely controlled me in the air with his Usmash and that high priority Utilt. My Dtilt and shieldbreaker, with an occasional Ftilt, seemed to be my only safe options. What else could I do that could possibly even this matchup out a little more?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Again, it just goes back to knowing his range. Play more patiently. Know when to rush. Using your d-tilts and f-tilts to force reactions, rolls, and spotdodges and then punish with Dancing Blade. If you get a grab in throw him in the air and try to keep him there. Force airdodges with a fast aerial and then land quickly for a follow-up with u-tilt or u-smash.

Honestly, d-tilt, f-tilt, and shieldbreaker are your best options all they are pretty much all you need honestly. They are more then enough, it's just a matter of knowing how to use them. I mean Snake doesn't have much more over you to work with. He can camp, but his cmaping loses effectiveness once you get used to it. Then he is left with f-tilt and u-tilt as his main tools. His jab combo and d-tilt are good, but most good Snakes don't rely on them as much. Also remember that your f-smash does outrange his attacks so if he tries to play a spacing game with you, throw that out there. Also you can DI his jab combo away once you get hit so you will avoid the final kick. Just throwing that out there.

If Snake is hitting you with U-smash just hit the mortar. U-tilt isn't so bad once you get your spacing down.

Remember not to jump around. Stay on the ground and try to get him in the air where you can dominate.

 

[alchfilosofer]

do dolphin slash counter snake AAA combo (cause immunity frames)?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

In my very humble opinion, I do not believe Snake has an advantage over Marth, I believe this because his recovery is extremely gimpable, is is really easy to fair or bair from stage; bair from ledge; dair (esp. when you're on the ledge and he is under you), and stage spike.