Marth match-up thread

[VersatileBJN]

because ike vs marth is 6/4 Marth's favor and not 7/3.

play a decent ike and lemmie know if you dominate with Marth

 

[Lord Aether]

because ike vs marth is 6/4 Marth's favor and not 7/3.

I swear it was 7:3 before it was 6:4, which is what I was referring to.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I changed it to appease certai lou mouths who play sub-par Fire Emblem Lords.

>_>

Doesn't mean I think it's true though.

HEHE!!!!

^_^

 

[VersatileBJN]

Seriously, put it back on 7/3 if its what you believe. The match up list is solid overall and I don't want it to be tainted by my opinion even if I believe my opinion to be right.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hahah.

It can go either or this point IMO.

I may change it back sometime. It depends on what else is discovered in the match-up, but Trebor's match-up analysis of Marth vs Ike is nearly identical to mine. Ike is limited in what he can do to actually hit Marth, which sucks for him. I mean Marth has an answer for anythjng Ike can do and it's not hard to just counter his approach on reaction or dodge some of his good moves on reaction either.

He just...doesn't have much going for him vs Marth.

Anyway, Ill probably change it back to 7:3 when I add more match-ups to the first post.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Added 3 more match-ups.

 

[JesiahTEG]

because ike vs marth is 6/4 Marth's favor and not 7/3.

play a decent ike and lemmie know if you dominate with Marth

I play Kirk all the time, and he tells me himself that the match up is almost impossible. It's definitely 7:3

 

[Devenski]

I was going up against a Yoshi with my Marth the other day... and I kinda got whooped lol.
He'd egg me as soon as I SH'd to hit him so I was pretty much open the whole time.

IMO Yoshi: 6:4 Yoshi

 

[k4polo]

He is doing a good job at this. At least he's considering options and being fair and raising this advantage or lower this. Some other people just stick to their own views. At least, Emblem Lord is considering other people's views.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I was going up against a Yoshi with my Marth the other day... and I kinda got whooped lol.
He'd egg me as soon as I SH'd to hit him so I was pretty much open the whole time.

IMO Yoshi: 6:4 Yoshi

No offense at all intended, but it's really just a skill level matter. Simply put, you are/weren't skilled enough to deal with whatever the Yoshi is doing.

Emblem Lord's thread takes into account everything a character has to use against the other character...Your match with that Yoshi really takes into account nothing. There are plenty of ways to deal with eggs, and punish Yoshi for throwing them at close range.

Again, no offense intended...It's just that your opinion isn't really valid because you haven't spent time thinking about every possible action you could have taken against the Yoshi.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly...Yoshi is trash lol.

And his eggs suck. Plenty of ways to deal with them.

Also it's too easy to gank Ike's recovery. I'll change that back to 7:3.

BTW, ALL MATCH-UPS ADDED!!!!!!

If there is anything you think I need to address ina particular match-up please let me know and I will update the first post with info talking about w/e it is that you brought to my attention.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Unless I am mistaken, when fighting Snake and he throws grenades at you, aren't you able to counter and cause the grenade to explode, forcing him to take the hit of the grenade and the counter? But it would have to be pretty close range, and he would probably to one of his tilts.

 

[uremog]

if you're that close, he'll probably drop the grenade and try some shield trickery or ftilt

 

[Steel]

Help with G&W:

My friend really just started using gw, but for some reason I've been having a ton of trouble with him. He uses his frying pan to keep me at bay, and if I do manage to get close his seemingly spammable smashes are killing me at very low percents. I've tried jumping over his frying pan spam to get on the other side of him, but that eventually gets predictable. Any tips?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You an jab or fair right through whatever comes out of the frying pan.

Also if G&W is hitting you with his smashes alot then you just have to work on your spacing. You outrange him so keep that in mind.

You don't have to full jump over him.

You can stay on the ground jabbing any projectiles that come towards you, then outspace him with d-tilts and fairs.

I'm sort of getting the vibe that you blindly rush in when he uses the frying pan and then he nails you with a smash or another attack. Keep a cool head and don't do anything reckless and you can come out on top.

 

[Steel]

Thanks, and I probably was a little too aggressive. I'll work on my spacing more when we play again.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So by now you've probably seen my arguement in the the brawl matchup chart discussion regarding Lucario. The more I argued, the more I felt that Marth had a solid advantage in the matchup. Unfortunately my opponent was not exactly the best debater and has not really brought up any decent points in Lucario's favor, and I was just wondering if you could explain why you consider it an even matchup, rather than a 6-4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yup.

I agree.

If anyone wants to see Sonic Wave's argument check out the last few pages of of the Brawl match-up thread in tactical discussion.

Pages 63 to 65.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I am having issues with Pit's glide attack. Can Marth's fair or fsmash out range it? I am also having trouble with really high recoveries, does anyone have any tips?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Glide attacks have alot of priority, so I wouldn't try to outrange them or attack someone who is gliding.

If someone is recovering high, there isn't much you can do about it.

It's not like Marth has multiple jumps or anything.

 

[BacklashMarth]

If you are in the air and so is pit, just jump in and counter. Not like he can grab you.

 

[Nica K.O]

Emblem Lord you think more can be added to the match ups if SHAD was used....it seems like a pretty useful technique to use especially with marth...my only problem would be incorporating it in my gameplay vs other characters...

heres the thread link- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156287

besides this just explains how to do it...no real detail about how to go about using it vs other characters

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly I thought this was common knowldge. It's just short hopping them airdodging.

I explain it's uses in a few match-ups IIRC namely vs Zelda for dealing with her Din's Fire.

This is something that all Marth's do instinctively I think.

Just to clarify why this technique is awesome, it allows you to keep the invincibility frames of the airdodge when you land.

So when you fast fall from an airdodge and immediately do any other action, you keep your invincibility for a few frames. So this allows you to go from being defensive to an explosive offense by abusing that invincibility.

So you could SH fast fall airdodge and then grab or dancing blade with Marth for example. It should make fighting projectile spammers alot easier.

 

[Shök]

IMHO, Snake and Marth are even. So are Marth and ROB. Snake has nice tilts, but if you use Marth's counter properly, they're useless. To Beat ROB, you need to stay close and play defensively until an opportunity arises to rack up some damage and eventually kill. Both their recoveries are easy to use the Dair Spike on, too.

And as for olimar, when edgehogging, hit him with a Fair to make him waste his 2nd jump. Use the dolphin slash and egdehog him. Instant Kill. It doesn't take lots to knock him off so you can set this up, either.


The most even Match-ups for Marth (not counting himself)
5: R.O.B.
4: Falco
3: Toon Link
2: Snake
1: Meta Knight

BTW, It should make fighting projectile spammers alot easier. this is true. I think that brings Falco's game against Marth down a notch.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Your Lucario match-up explanation makes the match sound so simple. His roll is very long and as you said, he has minimal wind-down lag on his attacks. A defensive, play it safe type of Lucario will not be dying at 100 or even above that. I've said for a while Lucario is advantageous here because he takes advantage of Marth not killing until higher % while sometimes nearly matching him in range him AND becoming more powerful as his % rises. Not to mention he can force you to attack with his projectile.


I just feel that players like you and Sonic Wave are inexperienced and aren't playing against people of a high enough caliber to make decisions that are taken so seriously. There is more than one way to play a character.


Play azen's Lucario rofl

 

[Emblem Lord]

Never said it was simple and the match-up guide isn't super in-depth. It's just a basic outliine for what to watch out for.

Marth CAN kill Lucario before 100% BTW.

Marth deals with much better projectiles then Aura Sphere just fine, so dealing with Aura Sphere is not really a problem.

Lucario can take advantage of anytime that he isn't dead before his percent really rises. But just becuase he gets the boost doesn't mean he can make the most of it.

His kill moves are...well...not good. Also Marth wins the speed game. Marth is also the better gimper and Lucario's recovery begs to be gimped.

It's really going to take more then a good roll and a rage system to give Lucario the advantage on a character that is just flat out better then him.

And if Lucario won't be dying around 100 I have to wonder how long a smart Marth will live given Lucario's bad smashes in terms of killing?

150? Maybe higher?

Unless Azen's Lucario is abusing the combos and other cool things Lucario can do then I can't say he brings out Lucarios full potential.

I CAN say that he plays a safe smart Lucario.

But Marth can do that too.

Yes, there is more then one way to play a character. Match-up discussion takes into account a characters options and what they are capable of. It also assumes both players have a brain, so they style argument doesn't hold much weight. Especially since some styles are just inferior to others and some characters onl have one effective style like Olimar or Wolf.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Marth CAN kill Lucario below 100%... many things in smash CAN be done, the viability is questionable however. I didn't say Lucario's roll gives him the significant advantage either, I said it changes Marth's offense as it is extremely long and difficult to punish. Most of the time Lucario can reset the offensive position by rolling away.

You have a lot of good TECHNICAL points as Marth wins the speed/range game against most of the characters in the game. However, good DI, attack power deterioration etc. hurt him pretty significantly. Lucario is a pretty heavy character as well.

If the guide is a basic outline for what to WATCH OUT for, then maybe you shouldn't have ratio match-ups in an 18 page thread about one of the most popular characters in smash. You're misleading newbies

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is unpopular. Come on man we both know this.

Also that was misleading. I should have said it's just a concise outline of the important things to know in the match-up. Not really basic, so much as straight to the point.

Marth laughs at attack deterioration.

Dancing Blade counts as 4 seperate hits that regenerate itself and all his other moves as well. How does Good DI hurt Marth then any other character? Especially since he kills better then the majority of the cast?

Also Lucario isn't heavy really. He is a little above mid weight. Heavier then Marth yeah, but certainly not heavy.

Anyway, Sonic Wave did make good points in his debate that I really can't deny and I play Lucario too.

Overall I just think Lucario has less going for him and the data supports that.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Does attack deterioration count if you're not hitting them or the shield? If so then yeah you're right.

As I said though, it's not as simple as a couple advantageous ranged attacks and such. There is a way around everything. None of us just don't get hit.



I just want you guys to play Azen... lol

 

[Shark Week]

some of us want to play azen too. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you hit nothing then nothing happens. If they shield then it counts towards deterioration I believe.

And yes Azen is quite the beast.

I heard he has been playing his Marth more recently.

Can't wait to see what happens with that.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

He's switching eh? Well I can't wait to see how his playstyle works with Marth.

 

[Shök]

Maybe he'll be the new Ken

 

[meepxzero]

i think lucario has a slight advantage over marth. Lucario is so underrated he has isa frames on his fsmash and his utilt comes out as fast as his jab. Hes possibly the hardest character to get into if you use the correct moveset. Good lucarios wont die till 150% and thats where they are at their strongest. I secondary lucario so i know them both pretty well and what they are both capable of. Id give the match to lucario 6-4. THere arent many good lucarios cuz people tend to choke like hell at high percents.

And a good metaknight ***** the crap outta marth -_-a. mk can just tornado through ur spacing when he predicts you fair or dtilt camping. Only option marth has is to wait for mk to attack period and even then his dash attack comes out fast and he can start a combo out of it. Plus his dair gimps marth real easily and he can wait out for airdodge to up b kill u.

***** Neo lol come to smashfests and stop hiding on online bull crap XD

 

[Shök]

Counter works against all these, Marth can kill Lucario prior to 150% with his F-smash and teh proper spacing. He can PWN His recovery. Marth and Meta Knight are the MOST EVEN MATCH-UP that you will ever find in SSBB. The match could go either way at any time for previously explained reasons.

Lucario's good, but 7:3 Marth. Cry your heart out.

 

[phi1ny3]

I main both, and while Lucario is kewl in my opinion, sadly, Marth is insane. His funny-pharm (yes, I spelled it that way) abilities hurt Lucario, but in terms of aereal fight, I think that is pretty much even, and grab is in Lucario's favor. But edge game, and ground game, Marth definitely scares the furry pants off of Lucario. However, don't entirely say that the gimp against Lucario's recovery is going to be easy. Azen is awesome, had to say that.

 

[OmegaSephiroth]

Good stuff Emblem Lord. This sure comes in handy.

 

[Shök]

How about Snake and Marth?

This Match-up is pretty even.
They both have a nice ground game, but Marth's Aerial game is superior.
Snake's moves are kinda slow, but they both have high priority.
Snake's recovery is easy to gimp with egdgehogging and dair spiking.
The dancing blade is a huge tick-off for snake because of its quick, milti-hit qualities.

If Marth can close the distance and use the counter on snake's strong moves, including his mines (yes, it works) The Match goes to him.

If snake can escape and use the nikita missle and his explosives at will, it's his match.

It's almost as even as Marth and Meta Knight wich is directly 50-50

ED: OK I was Wrong. After playing some good snakes, I've realised that It's his Match.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Maybe he'll be the new Ken

Uh, what? I hope you're joking lol.

Also, interesting what Meep said. I've never played vs a great MK, or a Lucario for that matter. Makes me want to start playing Luc lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK doesn't **** Marth.

No effin way.

Tornado? Just counter it or a well spaced F-smash will take care of it. Or Smash DI in the opposite direction that he is going while mashing airdodge.

Marth shouldn't be aggroing MK anyway. He should be camping/zoning him and forcing him to get past his sword. Marth and MK can both do a number on each other.

Yes, MK has good gimps, but MK also has less room for error against Marth due to his weight. If MK screws up he eats a tipper and he will probably die if his percent is high enough.

With zoning you have to switch between campng with your tilts and aerials to rushdown tactics. And Marth's fair beats all of MK's options other then his specials. So how can MK **** Marth when one ONE of Marth's moves FORCES MK to use tornado. Marth LIMITS what MK can do to get inside. So MK has to either watch Marth closely and wait for an opening or use Tornado. I call this even since Marth has more control on stage and MK has more control off the stage. That's not to say that MK can't dominate on stage or that Marth can't gimp MK either. It just that they both have thier advantages in the match-up that even things out.

As for the Lucario vs Marth debate. I won't get into this again as it's already been done to death, but honestly who ever does have advantage it's still close and I'll leave it at that.