Marth match-up thread

[phi1ny3]

Too bad Lucario couldn't have been made just a wee bit more uber... , still, I stand by what I've said, Marth has overall advantages on finishers, and MK has some things going for him too, such as his fair. I suggest that we look less at character, and more on type of player w/ the character. Everyone is sounding so formulaic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

K-9 told me to look up Forte vs LOZR.

So I did.

I haven't done this in awhile but, hey why not.

Time for some patented Emblem Lord match-up analysis. For those of you who don't know what this is all about you are in for a treat.

Lets do it.

Heres is the link to the match-up.

Forte (MK) vs LOZR (Marth) - Animal Crossing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Bd_K_Wy1Vc

00:04 - Right off the bat we can see a huge error on LOZR's part. He full jumps over MK and then does a forward b that stalls him in the air. This isn't a smart move. He is just asking MK to **** his face.

00:06 - MK misses the grab and LOZR doesn't punish. Where was the fair, or the Dancing Blade or the Uair?

00:09 - D-throw to f-smash is NOT a true combo. LOZR learns this the hard way.

00:16 - Double jumping was a bad idea especially, double jumping backwards. When MK gets you into the air you want to hit solid ground quickly and generally try to get away from the edges of the stage and go for the center. LOZR paid the price here.

00:28 - You should never be getting hit by MK's finisher attack after an Uair chain. Anyone can airdodge.

00:34 - He could have countered this on reaction. He had more then enough time.

00:43 - Why did he counter again? MK missed the grab. If he was afraid he should have just rolled away since that would have been much safer.

01:01 - Don't try to hit MK out of glide attack. Just get out of his way and let him back on. Best case scenario is that your attack clanks with his. Worst case scenario is that you get hit and then die if your percent is high enough.

01:14 - What? No, seriously, what? Why? Why would you SH over MK and do a bair? There is no reason at all do something like that.

01:16 - Good shield pressure by MK. LOZR could have Dolphin Slashed at anytime to stop it though. Or just rolled away to stay safe.

01:20 - He dairs for no reason at all.

01:34 - Ok. He did nothing. MK was coming straight for him and he did nothing. He let MK hit him.


So from watching this match I noticed two things immediately. The first thing is that Forte is an extremely skilled player. Easily one of the best on the EC and probably one of the best in the country. The other thing I noticed was that LOZR is not as good as Forte. He is not on his level at all.

Great players will crush players of lesser skill. Now I don't know how good LOZR has gotten since this vid, but in this vid he is clearly not as good as Forte and I will also say that his Marth isn't that good either. This is nothing against him as a person of course, this is just going by what I saw. But then again maybe he just doesn't know how to play the match-up.

But going back to my match-up analysis we can see that the Marth player really isn't bringng out Marth's full potential. I saw alot of double jumping which is a bad idea vs MK. I saw alot of Bairs which isn't good to use in a SHFF since it's a bit laggy. I saw NO d-tilts, f-tilts and or Dancing Blade at all. I mean, Dancing Blade is hands down Marth's best move and if a Marth doesn't use it then there is something very wrong with how that Marth plays. I also don't think he used any double fairs in SH's either which are pivotal for creating walls.

Also LOZR didn't really zone MK at all and the few times he tried it was pretty sloppy. I would see nothing but fairs. Marth's zoning is more then that and if you don't believe me then check out the Marth strategies thread I made. Also he didn't use any smash attack other then f-smash which he spammed quite a bit and used at bad times. And his responses to many situations were poor. And he missed out on chances to punish MK.

No, no, I'm sorry K-9, but if you think this match proved that MK beats Marth you are sadly mistaken. Judging from these vids LOZR's Marth has quite a ways to go before it hits it's peak.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Very nice analysis. Keep up the good ****.

 

[-ADA-]

Wow this is a huge debate. It's good, but just imo. I think MK does have a huge advantage over marth. And if a marth is lower than the stage level while recovering, that's when Meta WILL go for the gimp. I think that's a bad situation for Marth

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes, that is a bad situation for Marth.

I completely agree.

 

[-ADA-]

So how would he avoid that? I mean if he airdodges meta can just use he other jump and either edgehog or go for another dair, and if marth counters his momentum would stop and possibly be unable to make it back to the stage.

What should Marth do?

 

[Emblem Lord]

DI when he takes hits will play a huge role. DI up so that he won't have to deal with the situation of being really low too often.

Usually an early up b means he avoids the gimp, but he will still eat a hit when he lands on the stage. It also depends on how low he is. If he is too low that he has to grab the ledge then MK can just edgehug then he is done. But honestly, with good DI you can avoid the scenario fairly easily until you are at higher percents and get knocked out farther. It also depends if Marth still has his jump or not. If he does then can try to hit MK and catch him off guard.

Still this is a situation where MK holds advantage. He is one of, if not the best edgeguarder in the game.

But one scenario is not enough that say that MK has a huge advantage.

 

[∫unk]

The 2 things that kill LOZR are: No real spacing, and use of full jumping/double jumping. He is consistently putting himself in Meta's optimal zones for punishment.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Let's give this man a round of applause.

*claps hands

 

[Ciel~Image]

Haha, this thread has become even more entertaining than usual.

Interesting match rundown, man.

 

[meepxzero]

lol @ this thread too.

K-9 and ADA know what there talking about they play wit forte all the time. MKs dair is so good at gimping. Even if you air dodge its fast enough to hit u again if they dair twice. Besides waiting for mk to tornado. Marths only viable approach is fair and dtilt and then waiting for mistakes with dancing blades. While MK approaches are he can tornado u (very hard to punish), dtilt spam you (yes his dtilts are faster than marths), fair (al admit marths fair is better than mks spacing wise), dash attack (which can lead to utilt to uair juggles).

Marth does have better kill moves than mk tho and more kill options. The only conclusion im leaning toward this match going to MK because mk has the ability to gimp and marth has no options to gimp mk unless the mk does something stupid.

Marth is surprisingly easy to gimp its just a lot of people are afraid of hanging on the ledge when he up bs. Marths up b sometimes doesnt connect if your going in too low or if your too far off the side. I cant explain it but i would sometimes just get edge hogged real easily if people just hang on it.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

This debate is practically dead, but --

TKD, stop being his cheerleader. How about contributing something that proves me wrong? :3

All right fair enough, Marth can shield more against MK, than MK can against Marth. Because Marth can break MK's shield much easier, and if MK's shield does break, there is a good chance he going to be KO'd. I was just trying to stop a worn-out argument. As for the egitment concern of fanboy bias, ask Gimpyfish what the thinks of Marth vs. MK match-up. I believe he gave it 7:3 in Marth's favor, and MK is one of his mains.

As for the vid, check out this one, you might find it interesting:

R2 - Gimpyfish vs Danimals
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uWYi1wJzj_w

Not that it proves anything. (Except that Danimals *****.)

EDIT: Also at higher percents, dolphin slash might be an effective anti-air option against MK, due to the invincibility frames. It would have to be done sparingly or during an attack though, because if he air-dodges it could be easily punished.

Conditioning him to air-dodge instinctively could lead to some interesting mindgames though.

 

[∫unk]

If they are grabbing the edge, i've started using b forward to stall while the invincibility wears out. Marth has a lot of hang time after the b up which lets him grab the edge pretty easily as long as there isn't an invincible character grabbing. It works.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Meep: You can't say MK ***** someone because of ONE advantage though which is what they were trying to argue.

Plus K-9's points just sucked and he tried to argue that MK ***** Marth by telling me to watch a vid of Forte ****** a bad Marth.

K-9's arguments were weak as hell. Nothing changes that fact.

Also, Marth doesn't approach MK. I have said this repeatedly. He camps him. You DO NOT approach MK.

 

[meepxzero]

Thats the only advantage mk needs to beat marth >_>a. lol o well I really think every marth main needs to play forte b4 they really judge anything they say. Im fairly confident in camping decent/mediocre mks its just his i couldnt do nothing. Even azens marth who he barely tried to pick up last tourney loses badly to planks mk who he only picked up in a week.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I really think every marth main needs to play forte b4 they really judge anything they say.

Then I really believe every MK main (I know you don't main him) should play Ken and/or Danimals before they really judge anything they say.

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK is a pick up and **** with character. He is noob friendly and Marth isn't and he is a very different beast from his melee counterpart. **** anyone who says otherwise.

Forte is one player who might just be really good vs Marth's.

And that one advantage certianly wouldnt enough to say MK ***** Marth.

**** = An 8/2 ratio or more. Basically a counter match-up.

No sir. No way.

I won't deabte this anymore. No one in this thread said anything that I didn't already know. And that vid that k-9 told me to watch only solidifies that idea in my mind that he ahs no idea what a good Marth looks like.

 

[meepxzero]

I dont know who danimal is i know he just has a combo vid of marth. Gimpy doesnt know how to play mk from that vid im sorry not enough b attacks period and he coulda followed up wit more attacks on a lotta his hits. I dont think we should b throwing kens name in brawl when he hasnt proved a thing and i keep hearing he lost to a random kirby <_<a.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

True I don't know what happened with that, as I said before, I wasn't trying to prove anything with that vid. But Danimals also ***** Gimpyfish's Bowser, and Gimpyfish knows how to play Bowser.

 

[undyinglight]

Yes but I would say that Marth has a large advantage over Bowser.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bump because a thread that reeks of this much awesome has no business being on the second page.

 

[k4polo]

Marth has some disadvantages. He doesn't have a projectile. (Been a problem since Melee though). His recovery is pretty average. He can be gimped and can be edgehogged thereafter.I have seen Marth get edgehog before as well. His disadvantages aren't that big compared to alot of the rest of the cast though. The disadvantages are relatively small.

Also Marth is an offensive based character.

The counter picks(Maybe not counter pick but rather good chars against him) would definitely be Snake,ROB and DDD.

They have great defensive moves to Make Marth's approach to the character extremely difficult.

Snake has mines and grenades that Marth has to handle and he can set up deadly traps into combo. Grenade into F-tilt or U-Tilt. He has many traps that can make Marth be careful. HE has the best defensive attacks in the game(F-Tilt,U-Tilt, even N-Air is very useful 4 hit combo in air) and this is a defensive game so he has the edge over Marth who is offensive based.

(Marth has good defensive moves(Dancing Blades), its just that Snake defensive moves are better) Snake defensive games and Projectiles are more effective than Marth's offensive Spacing game.(Basically in general terms, It is hard to attack with you getting exploded some kind of way)

ROb has great defensive and great recovery. He cant be gimped easily and he has quick and fast projectiles. Rob is kinda how Samus was to Marth in Melee. A Long range fast projectile type. He also has long range in his normal attacks. He has some great defensive moves in D-tilt andF-Tilt that keep Marth at bay.

DDD has a good defensive game. He will rely on waddle dees and shield grabs to defeat Marth. DDD player's will do many tricks to initiate the shield grab. (I feel that a good DDD player will separate the good Marth from the Bad Marths as you can't Spam him) Because of the chain throw, Marth has be to play in a very safe manner but it is very difficult to do especially against a person of equal skill level.

The worst Match-up for Marth is most likely Snake. I've already seen many Marth in youtube tourney be defeated by Snake. He is you Marth players number one enemy. I believe he is the best in the game and the top of top tiers. Snake defensive.(can live to 200% at times), and defense moves and projectile make him the best in the game IMO. This is a more defenisvie game. If Snake was in Melee, then MArth would have the advantage as that is an offensive comboing game.

Nevertheless hes somewhere in top tier.

From what I've seen so far. I think Shiek,Wario, and Pikman should be changed. Shiek should go into Marth favor due to his lack of KO ability. Wario should move to 6:4 Marth because of his crazy aerial DIing making him tough to approach(check out the getyourtournament videos, he can do some killer fake-out approaches), and Pikman should go in Marth favor because he is the easiest to gimp and edgehog.

I am bored and just posting my opinions of things.

 

[YagamiLight]

You should probably mention that hitting Jigglypuff with a Shield Breaker and breaking the shield is a OHKO on Jiggly. Not like Marth isn't already great against her.

 

[alchfilosofer]

Marth has some disadvantages. He doesn't have a projectile. (Been a problem since Melee though). His recovery is pretty average. He can be gimped and can be edgehogged thereafter.I have seen Marth get edgehog before as well. His disadvantages aren't that big compared to alot of the rest of the cast though. The disadvantages are relatively small.

Also Marth is an offensive based character.

The counter picks(Maybe not counter pick but rather good chars against him) would definitely be Snake,ROB and DDD.

They have great defensive moves to Make Marth's approach to the character extremely difficult.

Snake has mines and grenades that Marth has to handle and he can set up deadly traps into combo. Grenade into F-tilt or U-Tilt. He has many traps that can make Marth be careful. HE has the best defensive attacks in the game(F-Tilt,U-Tilt, even N-Air is very useful 4 hit combo in air) and this is a defensive game so he has the edge over Marth who is offensive based.

(Marth has good defensive moves(Dancing Blades), its just that Snake defensive moves are better) Snake defensive games and Projectiles are more effective than Marth's offensive Spacing game.(Basically in general terms, It is hard to attack with you getting exploded some kind of way)

ROb has great defensive and great recovery. He cant be gimped easily and he has quick and fast projectiles. Rob is kinda how Samus was to Marth in Melee. A Long range fast projectile type. He also has long range in his normal attacks. He has some great defensive moves in D-tilt andF-Tilt that keep Marth at bay.

DDD has a good defensive game. He will rely on waddle dees and shield grabs to defeat Marth. DDD player's will do many tricks to initiate the shield grab. (I feel that a good DDD player will separate the good Marth from the Bad Marths as you can't Spam him) Because of the chain throw, Marth has be to play in a very safe manner but it is very difficult to do especially against a person of equal skill level.

The worst Match-up for Marth is most likely Snake. I've already seen many Marth in youtube tourney be defeated by Snake. He is you Marth players number one enemy. I believe he is the best in the game and the top of top tiers. Snake defensive.(can live to 200% at times), and defense moves and projectile make him the best in the game IMO. This is a more defenisvie game. If Snake was in Melee, then MArth would have the advantage as that is an offensive comboing game.

Nevertheless hes somewhere in top tier.

From what I've seen so far. I think Shiek,Wario, and Pikman should be changed. Shiek should go into Marth favor due to his lack of KO ability. Wario should move to 6:4 Marth because of his crazy aerial DIing making him tough to approach(check out the getyourtournament videos, he can do some killer fake-out approaches), and Pikman should go in Marth favor because he is the easiest to gimp and edgehog.

I am bored and just posting my opinions of things.

Marth dancing blade = ***** edgehog. counter/fair destroys gimps and he has above average recovery. And out prioritize most projectiles whit his jab/ftilt.

against snake, he needs to be offensive and shield/counter happy. his dtilt is quite good against snake cause snake will never try to jump against marth. also dolphin slash, counter and screw attack are by far the best defensive moves in brawl IMO (Cause immunity frames). And snake upb is so easy to dair.

ROB IS gimped easily if you know how to counter and dair well.

DDD chain grab dont work on marth cause dolphin slash, marht can use f trow to f trow to dancing blade to f airt to dair against DD quite easily.

And yea snake is like almos everyone (exept samus) number 1 enemy.

 

[k4polo]

Well it is a guessing game between chain grab, and dashing shield then. Dolphin slash it a great fast move but is very unsafe. If Blocked or dodged then it is a clean free hit or more chain grabbing. A dashing shield and you doing dolphin smash is a free hit. This is what the expert DDD players will do to counter this.

Also I dont think Samus or even my Zamus is an exception to snake due to lack of KO ability but that discussion is for another part of the board.

 

[alchfilosofer]

Well it is a guessing game between chain grab, and dashing shield then. Dolphin slash it a great fast move but is very unsafe. If Blocked or dodged then it is a clean free hit or more chain grabbing. A dashing shield and you doing dolphin smash is a free hit. This is what the expert DDD players will do to counter this.

Also I dont think Samus or even my Zamus is an exception to snake due to lack of KO ability but that discussion is for another part of the board.

yea DDD can shield to punish an expected upb, thankfully marth can use shield breaker if he mind games DDD.

And varia suit samus can give snake a fight if you use well her projectiles to make dagme + her zair to deal whit snakes projectiles . And i think her dair is nice against snake.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Shiek should go into Marth favor due to his lack of KO ability.

Sorry just needed to point that out.

I find that when I am fighting someone who does not have any projectiles, Marth can be a very competent defensive character. One of his good defensive moves that a few people talk about is his ftilt.

 

[enemyoftime]

By far the best character to use Against Marth--that I have found anyway--is G&W. Seriously!! Frying pan to keep Marth at bay and if he gets through just jump and UP A.

Better then Snake b/c his projectiles can generally be easily countered or dodged.

 

[∫unk]

Sorry just needed to point that out.

I find that when I am fighting someone who does not have any projectiles, Marth can be a very competent defensive character. One of his good defensive moves that a few people talk about is his ftilt.

Yup that's what I said in my new thread. f-tilt is pretty **** good.

By far the best character to use Against Marth--that I have found anyway--is G&W. Seriously!! Frying pan to keep Marth at bay and if he gets through just jump and UP A.

Better then Snake b/c his projectiles can generally be easily countered or dodged.

This is wrong in so many ways that I suggest others to just ignore it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course Snake is Marth's hardest opponent.

Snake is ****ing ridiculous.

I don't think Dedede has anything on Marth really aside from a good punishment game thanks to his CG.

R.O.B vs Marth is close. Overswarm and Chozenone think it's even. I used to think it was even too, but lately I had been giving R.O.B the nod in the match-up. But more and more Marth players are telling me they think it's even including NEO and King, and for the same reasons that I orginally thought it was even for. Mainly because R.O.B is a bit weak hit for hit and he can't kill for ****.

I might change it back to 5:5 in the future because of this.

 

[JhMS]

Meta is just very even.And I dont know about you guys,but I hate fighting Wolf.
This should be stickied btw...

 

[∫unk]

Is Wario still 7:3? I think Marth still has the advantage and it's easy to chain hits even with DI.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel ok about 7:3 vs Wario. It might change in the future. The main thing though is that Marth has control pretty much the entire time. Wario can't stage any kind of offense. He isn't fast enough nor does he have the priority.

At best it's 6/4, but still in Marth's favor.

 

[Shök]

ED: When I first posted this, I didn't give any explanations. That was stupd of me. Sorry about that. But here, now I have.



Nice List.
If I were to make one, I'd put some Minor edits....

Bowser - 7:3 Marth (Easy Match. Look at DK)
Captain Falcon - 8:2 Marth (Obvious)
Charizard - 7:3 Marth (Come on. He's slow and only has a mediocre recovery. Easy to beat.)
Diddy Kong - 6:4 Marth (Get inside his Bananas and you've got everything on him. His recovery is easily Spikeable)
Donkey Kong - 7:3 Marth (Juggle bait. Big Target. Spike. Bye Bye!)
Falco - 5:5 Even (U said it yourself)
Fox - 7:3 Marth (Lacks Power. Laggy Recovery and get inside his lasers, the match is yours for the taking)
Game & Watch - 6:4 Marth (Tough one. Use your counter, DB and Tip F-Smash screws at near 55% at the edge of the stage.)
Ganondorf - 9:1 Marth (Slow and Edgehoggable. Need I say More?)
Ice Climbers - 6:4 Marth
Ike - 7:3 Marth (Slow and his recovery couldnt be much worse. Use the Counter ALOT and Edgehog)
Ivysaur - 7:3 Marth
Jigglypuff - 7:3 Marth
King Dedede- 5:5 Even (Tought. space properly and make sure u dont get grabbed. If u do, DS out of it. Use Vertical Spacing to get an easy kill when you've knocked him off.)
Kirby- 7:3 Marth
Link- 7:3 Marth (So yours)
Lucario - 6:4 Marth
Lucas - 8:2 Marth (See Ness. He's a little stronger)
Luigi - 7:3 Marth
Mario - 7:3 Marth
Marth - 5:5 Mirror Match
Meta Knight- 5:5 Even
Ness - 9:1 Marth (Chaingrab and F-Smash Screws at 80% LOL)
Peach - 7:3 Marth
Pikachu - 7:3 Marth
Pikman & Olimar - 6:4 Marth (Easily edgehoggable and a DB combo knocks him of the stage. Fair him, and Reverse Dolphin Slash to edgehog. Dead)
Pit - 6:4 Marth
R.O.B. - 5:5 Even (U said it Yourself)
Samus - 7:3 Marth (Slow, Heavy and u can beat the crap out of her because of her laggy moves)
Sheik - 7:3 Marth (Cant Kill For her life!)
Snake - 6:4 Snake (I agree. Marth's Toughest Match. Be Counter Happy!)
Sonic - 7:3 Marth
Squirtle - 7:3 Marth
Toon Link - 5:5 Even
Wario - 7:3 Marth (Nice aerial game but U and D-Smash leave tremendous Lag. Keep him on the Ground and be Counter Happy to slow him down an finish him off with a U-Smash near 120%)
Wolf- 6:4 Marth
Yoshi - 9:1 Marth (This is so not fair for Yoshi. His recovery is extremely Spikeable. Nuf Said)
Zelda - 7:3 Marth (Powerful, but fairly slow. Get inside her Din's Fire Fortress and she's toast. Tipper F-Smash Charged a little kills near 75%)
Zero Suit Samus - 6:4 Marth (See Olimar)

 

[Shök]

Snake is the Hardest Match up for Marth, but he is easy to juggle.
He is big, a fast faller, has a crappy aerial game, you can spike his recovery with your Dair and gimp with the Semi Wall of Pain. Keep him in the air as much as you can because you can destroy him there. Use the counter on hise U and F tilts, his RC missle, grenades, Cypher when recovering and something he won't excpect...his D Smash.
It's an even match, son.

ED: Screw Dat. He's got the advantage but you HAVE TO USE TEH COUNTER!

 

[OmegaSephiroth]

SHOK: Having 1 disadvantageous match-ups would make Marth rather broken.

Oh, and there's a slight mistake, in Pikmin & Olimar it says 6:4 but then it says it's even.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So I have been doing some thinking about Falco and R.O.B and after doing more research and playing my Falco and my R.O.B alot more, I's going to say that they both go even with Marth.

Falco has his camping and some set-ups, but overall Marth just dominates at close range and Marth can mess Falco up when he tries to recover. Falco has a solid control game with his b moves, but Marth is better at close range with better kill moves and better edgeguarding. Plus Falco is light so he will die earliar then Marth.

R.O.B and Marth go even mostly because of R.O.B's weaknesses. Marth isn't easy for R.O.B to gimp if Marth has good DI, but Marth can gimp R.O.B with his Dair since R.O.B can't airdodge when he up b's. So if he comes in from below while Marth is on the ledge then R.O.B is spike bait. Also R.O.B can't kill for ****.

So I'll change those 2 match-ups to 5/5 even.

Edit: I think I'm going to change Wario back to 6/4. His weight helps him live longer and he is hard to gimp.

 

[Jibbles]

IMO Marth vs Sheik is 6:4 in Marth's favor.
Marth has priority, range and killing power, while Sheik only has speed and some auto combos. That's all for Sheik really. With Marth's range he should be able to tear through Sheik's attacks and hit her while she can't hit him back

Just my two cents.

@SHOK
Your match up list is scary.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Rofl! Falcon Crawnch! I gotta get my friend some of that for his birthday. He loves the cap'n.

 

[∫unk]

Can someone gather all the useful threads by me and Emblem and post links into one thread, then have that stickied?

I know someone wrote a guide but he isn't exactly an active member of the Marth forums so we need someone else to step up.

I'll do it at the end of the week of no one steps up.