Marth match-up thread

[Emblem Lord]

Thats's pretty much the infinite, but they can't get away if you keep mashing the attack button. They will land in front of you and you can re-grab them.

You don't actually throw them.

 

[Mew2King]

Wow, are you trying to say marth loses to NO ONE?

what kind of ratios are these, you're saying his worst matchups period are even? Show some tourney results please before saying these things.

Based on experience, I feel Marth is disadvantaged vs Pit, Metaknight (his aerials go over his head, and if MK shield camps a lot it's really annoying as Marth doesn't have a good grab approach anymore and it does minimal damage now, and as much as I feel DDD loses to MK I do way better using DDD vs MK than I do with Marth), ROB, DDD, and especially Snake. I'm pretty sure of at least that much. Also every snake player including DSF and Cort who are both pretty good with him tell me Snake severely counters Marth.

I also know that Marth has the advantage vs GW from experience.




make those edits and the list will look far more accurate, at least move each placing by 1 or something.

 

[The Green Marth]

Wow, are you trying to say marth loses to NO ONE?

what kind of ratios are these, you're saying his worst matchups period are even? Show some tourney results please before saying these things.

Based on experience, I feel Marth is disadvantaged vs Pit, Metaknight (his aerials go over his head, and if MK shield camps a lot it's really annoying as Marth doesn't have a good grab approach anymore and it does minimal damage now, and as much as I feel DDD loses to MK I do way better using DDD vs MK than I do with Marth), ROB, DDD, and especially Snake. I'm pretty sure of at least that much. Also every snake player including DSF and Cort who are both pretty good with him tell me Snake severely counters Marth.

I also know that Marth has the advantage vs GW from experience.




make those edits and the list will look far more accurate, at least move each placing by 1 or something.

m2k will you plz make an accurate chart? I realy need good matchup ratios.

 

[Mew2King]

I don't know enough matchups for sure to make an accurate chart, however I do know everything I said in my above post. I could easily just randomly assume stuff, but I'm not going to go places without having confidence that I'm sure of what I'm talking about.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first let me start off by saying WHEN ANYONE SPACES WELL IT LIMITS HIS OPPONENTS OPTION this is not true for just marth but you seem to think it is true for only marth

you also act as if just b/c you can get by projectiles it makes them useless you don't seem to realize that well used projectiles can force people into unfavorable positions its not just you get by and can hit the character using the projectiles and he is stuck unable to do anything to stop it.

It seems to me you picked a main and then said he can't be beat but look at all the matchups mew2king pointed out. It seems to me you have no real reasoning behind most of your ratio's besides just wanting them that way so your main seems like he is the best and unstoppable. The only reason you kept most of them as 6/4 instead of something higher is so that people could not say you just want marth to be the best and of course it is easy enough saying why someone might have a slight advantage against someone else even when the advantage is not really even there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth has advantage on G&W M2K? I'm starting to think it's about even. Marth doesn't have nearly the range advantage on G&W like he used to for one. Marth can definitely outspeed G&W, but G&W can spam and gimp him, and also neutralize his Up-B out of shield.

 

[knightpraetor]

no, marth counters G&W. You can feel the range far better..sure it's not as much so as in melee where marth could break G&W without trying ..but even so


"Based on experience, I feel Marth is disadvantaged vs Pit, Metaknight (his aerials go over his head, and if MK shield camps a lot it's really annoying as Marth doesn't have a good grab approach anymore and it does minimal damage now, and as much as I feel DDD loses to MK I do way better using DDD vs MK than I do with Marth), ROB, DDD, and especially Snake. I'm pretty sure of at least that much. Also every snake player including DSF and Cort who are both pretty good with him tell me Snake severely counters Marth."

I don't get why you feel marth would be disadvantaged vs pit...getting past the arrows is a breeze, and it's easy to outspace pits ground game.

MK i agree with..marth has a lot of trouble there....ROB I keep playing more and more, and i would think that it's probably about even...Rob doesn't kill effectively enough.. his camping game is pretty good..and punishing rolls is a breeze for him..but i feel like marth has an easy time hitting him in the air. I just play hit and run and stay in midrange...be patient and you should win the trades...rushdown works particularly poorly on him..and of course with the fast-moving laser long-range is a bad idea as well. A lot of char in this game marth can get away with just spacing against..but i feel with rob you're better off having a little bit more room and trying to be a bit more campy.

snake i would place at advantage on marth as well. his ftilt has too much range and can punish easily from shield...his grenades and mines control too much of the stage

DDD maybe not so much of a counter, but i would place it slightly in DDD's favor...getting through the camping + ftilt + chaingrab is not too much fun

 

[A2ZOMG]

no, marth counters G&W. You can feel the range far better..sure it's not as much so as in melee where marth could break G&W without trying ..but even so

A counter? Hardly. G&W can actually approach Marth and get away without punishment because his B-air can shield stab. D-smash gets extremely lame on Marth's recovery because Marth can't gain too much horizontal distance without charging his Neutral B, which he can't do if he gets semi-spiked by the D-smash. He'll eat a D-smash if he doesn't tech G&W's D-throw. Plus, as I said G&W can reasonably projectile spam in Brawl. Bacon goes much further, does 4 damage a pop, and isn't terribly laggy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

NAGACE: What do you want from me exactly? The ratio itself just means slight advantage, advantage blah blah depending on the greater descrepancy between the numbers. This is based on data and evidence and the only time time bias really comes in is how much emphasis I put onto each factor. For me the most important things are options, killing moves, weight and maybe a few other things like reliable damage builders. As I said before. I'm not here to convince you of anything.

Don't like it?

Ok.

Don't read it.

I'm trying to be civil and I sense great hostility on your post and this aggravates me since I have done nothing to disrespect you. And saying I have no real reasoning behind my ratio is an insult. Have you not been reading anything I'm saying at all? Whatever. I think I'm done responding to you, because this is getting stupid.

M2K: There is NO way, I'm going to change Pit or MK. Sorry, but Pit has nothing on Marth except arrows. Marth vs MK is highly debateable and no, Marth's sword doesn't go ever MK'a head. A SH aerial from Marth can hit friggin Olimar. Also Marth shouldn't be approaching MK. He should be camping him.

I got into a HUGE debate with Overswarm and Chozenone about ROB vs Marth. OS and I think they go even while CO thinks ROB has slight advantage.

I'll post the link to that. I feel ok with giving it 50/50. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162016

I talked about Dedede a while back. I feel ok with 50/50. Honestly I feel like ROB is sligtly more challlenging then Dedede. All Dedede really has on Marth is the fact that he is heavy and a CG that isn't guranteed.

As for Snake...let's talk about it.

Snake has insane range on his tilts and a nice camping/control game. But his grenades can be used agianst him and if he plants mines then you really don't have to worry about his absuing that insane smash dash of his. Speaking of the smashdash. It's insane. go to the Snake boards and look it up. Marth can't abuse SH's here. He he has to treat it more like a Marth ditto. Stick to f-tilts, and d-tilts. Snake is punishable after you block a tilt though. You just have to be fast. But man he hits so hard. Punish any mistakes he makes with Dancing Blade. One good thing that Marth has going for him is the fact that it's easy to spike Snake during his recovery or just gimp him in general. If he is close to the kill zone on the stage then just Nair. If he is closer to the stage go for a spike.

Snake really can't challenge Marth in the air so If Marth gets him up there and baits an airdodge, punishing him is easy.

I would have given slight advantage to Snake, until I realized how gimpable he is on recovery.

But let me say this since people in this thread love to ignore my post, So i'm going to repeat myself. I actually said this on the last page.

I feel like Marth has some highly debatable match-ups. Snake, ROB, and Dedede are among them. I would not be surrpised if Marth does end up having slight disadvantage to them or the match-up does end up being even.

But...for now...at this early stage in the metagame....I'm leaving it at 50/50 unless I see some awesome strat that anyone of those characters can do.

 

[Yuna]

Has anyone here noticed that you can shieldhop aerial Ike if you block his AAA-string (jab) yet? And I don't mean just at the end but between each A.

I naired him on reaction. If you can nair him, then you can reverse Up B him as well.

Could someone test if you can Nair/Up B/whatever Ike even if he only does the 1st jab and then shields?

That makes his jab (quite possibly simply doing just the 1st one) unsafe.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, this needs to be said.

What is wrong with you people?

Why are some of you so disrespectful and so nasty?

You don't know me at all.

You have beef with me? Fine, send me a pm and we'll talk. Who knows? Maybe we'll be buds when it's over or maybe I'll just curse you out depending on how it goes. But don't come into my thread where I'm trying my hardest to give evidence and be reasonable and act like an ***.

You think Marth sucks? Fine. Don't post here.
You think I'm a fanboy? Fine. Don't post here.
You think I'm a scrub at Brawl? Fine. Don't post here.
You think a certain character is better then Marth? Fine. Don't post here.

But....If you want to have an intelligent debate about Marth's match-ups then post away. You want to change my mind then you better be ready to bring me some evidence and some solid reasoning.

Think I'm a douchebag because I won't change a match-up ratio just because you say it's wrong even though you can't back up your claim?

Fine.

DON'T POST HERE!!!!!!!!

 

[V]

i agree with the recovery part as well some of your list, not all. alot of marth players i see try to use him as a power character, which is stupid. if you're smart with marth, unpredictable, and use the right moves at the right time, he's very difficult to beat

 

[Emblem Lord]

M2K: Here is my tourney experience.

I beat Kashif's MK in tourney with Marth.

How?

I camped him. Hard. With fairs and d-tilts and punished with Dancing Blade. When he got reckless or frustrated I nialed him with tippers or U-smashes. I was able to beat a better players MK with my Marth by camping him. Is that enough proof?

He won the set though. He counter picked me. Took me to Green Hill Zone with Zelda and camped the checkpoints.

I lost one stock before I decided to camp outside of Zelda's Din Fire range and then get the checkpoints for myself when they appeared. I almost won that too. It was a good match though, no johns.

 

[zapdose]

I think that Marth vs Metaknight, Marth has slight advantage only because his sword is longer. If the Marth properly spaces, the Metaknight can't really do much. Metaknight doesn't have a projectile that or a way to force Marth to approach.

Marth vs Pit, I'm kind of conflicted on this one. Pit has projectiles, but those aren't that hard to get around. Also it seems that this match up would be different on different maps (ie. Final D or Battlefield).

I haven't played a really good DeDeDe yet, so I can't give my opinion on that matchup.

But overall, I agree with Emblem Lord's match-up ratios. Marth doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, and his main problem (projectile spammers/campers) can be dealt with in a variety of ways.

 

[uremog]

so what do we do to get out of DDD's CG? i got hit with this for the first time the other day and it was not fun.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You can up b. But I'm trying to see if Marth can forward b out of it. His up b is invincible on frames 1-5 , but it hits on frame 5. Forward b hits on frame 4.

Someone needs to test this.

Also I'm going to talk to Cort about Marth vs Snake. Just for the lulz.

Also the Marth vs Ike ratio is going to be changed to 7:3. It's just...too easy to rock his recovery and it's very predictable and then looking at what Yuna said makes it harder for Ike since it means he wouldn't be able to attack Marth safely at all. Plus you can counter alot of Ike's attacks on reaction anyway.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can up b. But I'm trying to see if Marth can forward b out of it. His up b is invincible on frames 1-5 , but it hits on frame 5. Forward b hits on frame 4.

Someone needs to test this.

I think the important part here is that invincible 1-5 part. It's not that the up B comes out before the grab, but that you're invincible until the up B hits so you don't trade hits.

Magus also proved that grabs don't have super armor. There's a new game mechanic that the grabber will still take damage if they were going to be hit, but this only applies if the opponent would still get grabbed. If the grab misses you still get sent flying, which is different from how super armor works. Thus DDD would still get sent flying if he got hit by Marth's up B even if he were already grabbing.

However, I've only done this on a couple of my friends, and we aren't exactly frame perfect or anything, so I could be wrong. But to me it does make more sense that the invincibility is why the up B is working.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also, FYI.

I have spoken to PC Chris and Cort about Marth's match-ups.

They didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know and they place much greater emphasis on camping and how much harder it is for Marth to approach some match-ups.

For the most part they go off personal experience while I go on data and evidence.

I was actually able to counter some of thier arguments though.

PC did say this to me though.

He said it's too early for something to be set in stone. Match-ups will change and at this point anyone could be wrong and anyone could be right. That goes for me, or PC, or M2K or anyone else.

So a match-up that I say is even could very well be a counter match-up. But it could also very well be even.

Just some food for thought.

Which is why I always go by evidence since it's tangible and can be tested so people know I'm not lying. Opinions can change, but data and evidence does not.

I DO have my personal opinions. Personally I don't think Dedede has **** on Marth and I think he is overrated. But match-up wise it's either even or slightly on his favor from what I can see. Based on my most recent findings I'm calling it even though.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first what i want from you is evidence which i have yet to see

second saying i dont have a good understanding of fighting games is disrespectful

thrid you are right i was a bit hostile and for that i do apologize

 

[Yuna]

Far be it from me to judge a matchup based solely on personal experience but what exactly does DeDeDe have on Marth? I faced a rather quasi-skilled DeDeDe (who wasn't his main) as Marth this past weekend (and I'm, like, quasi-skilled as Marth) and I obliterated him. And I can't really see anything he's got on Marth besides, what, Waddle Dee spamming?

 

[Emblem Lord]

NAGACE: The evidence is in everyone one of my post. Everything I say is pretty much just data and evidence. When I say Marth out ranges someone. Evidence. When I talk about his close range options. Evidence. When I talk about his killing power. Evidence. When I talk about his edgeguarding. Evidence. All this is factual information. When I talk about how he deals with camping. Evidence. What else do you expect? Math equations? Stuff like that is only neccessary when you are trying to calculate something like weight or fall speed.

Yuna: I agree. Dedede doesn't have **** on Marth besides a CG that isn't even guarunteed and the fact that he is heavy so he won't die early. Waddle dees are easy to deal with and f-tilt can be SHed over from what I have seen and Dedede lags a bit when he uses it so it's punishable.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think evidence would be videos of good smashers playing each other or when you site threads (when you say i've been to x board and they say on that board marth beats y) why not point us to that thread on that board so we can check it for are self to see there argument

Also why is it that you seem to respond to only one thing i write in my posts while i have more then one comment this goes even back to the diddy comments
ex: you never comment on how marth's gimpable recovery does not lower some of his match up numbers

 

[Emblem Lord]

The last two things you said were irrelevant to the argument and the thread.

You said I was disrespectful to you, but can you blame me?

And then you apologized.

I chose not to respond to either of these because they held no meaning to me.

Marth's recovery is gimpable, but the only time a recovery should play a huge role IMO is if it's extremely easy to gimp, like say Olimar or Wolf.

Also Marth's recovery isn't even that easy to gimp. Only a handful of characters can really gimp him well. Where as Marth can gimp nearly the entire cast save for those with multiple jumps and even then he can gimp a few of those characters as well.

Since Marth is floaty, has a good second jump, can use forward b and neutral b to aid recovery, and his up b is very fast with invincibility frames, you can see why Marth wouldn't be super easy to gimp.

Also for the record, how do YOU know that I don't lower Marth's numbers based on his recovery?

When I say I try my hardest to take all things into account I mean it.

I mean really, some of Marth's match-ups would be more in his favor if those characters couldn't gimp him like MK for example. So before you say I don't take his recovery into account maybe you should step back and really think about it.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

NAGACE

You're insisting on giving Emblem Lord a hard time when hes just trying to help people, I haven't seen you contribute anything but be a jerk and demand things of him. Emblem lord's mindset enables him to be a better judge of matches than most for the time being simply due to this being his forte. Unless YOU have proof of something, back off.

He doesn't have to appease you or gain your approval. Hes been around MUCH longer than you. Don't start with melee experience doesn't matter either because the basics are here and they sure do matter, I know that already in my matches.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first off let me say i did not say you don't count his recovery i was saying you never responded to me when i brought it up

second i was civil enough to apologize for being hostel and i did expect some kind of apology for his comment about my knowledge and ability at fighting games (being it was the comment that brought on the hostility)and he knows not what my fighting game backround or experience is

thrid are you saying i should not question his or anyone elses thoughts on the game why can't i play the devils advocate

Also Thebluedeath one thing which i respected of emblem is his ability to defend himself you having to stick up for him is sad and disapointing to say the least.
I never said he had to gain my approval
True i might not have the best proof but think of me as a repoter asking a man making a statement why he has said such a thing i don't need to show him proof he needs to show me proof

LASTLY IF I WAS TO MAKE A TOPIC LIKE THIS I WOULD EXPECT A LOT OF PEOPLE QUESTIONING HOW LAGIT IT WAS. And for being a jerk besides one hostle post i have been polite and i think making someone strongly defend there point if done well would help them prove it and i believe that would help others reading this thread have a even deeper understanding of just how the matchups work out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I expect people to question me and it's cool as long as it's in a polite and intelligent manner.

I also apologize. Let us move on from this unpleasantness.

Here is a link to the Peach match-up thread where I talk about Marth vs Peach.


http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160100

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I don't give a care about your so called ability with fighting games. You Joined march 2008, You are playing a newly released game and by you not backing up any of your little points against emblem lord, and simply asking questions YET trying to agrue back without any valid points speaks on how good you are.

Cut the crap, you saying me defending him is disappointing, I don't have to defend him, he ruled you all by himself.

And lastly, if you were to make a topic like this, it'd fail, because you have no real knowledge, at least emblem lord has experience with this sort of thing and knows who to go to when he needs something, unlike you.

So unless you have something directly to debate with opposing facts. Shut up already, I'm just tired of watching you make stupid posts.

 

[∫unk]

Tried that semi-infinite grab of Marth vs Ness/Lucas today... it makes the matchup nearly unwinnable for the pk brothers, especially because when you're grabbing your other attacks are near full strength, so once you have enough percentage you can let them escape and do something easy like a forward air and kill them.

Sometimes they get out... do they have a 1 frame window to jump or something? I'm not sure how this works as at higher percentages it was just as easy to continue grabbing/hitting them as lower.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Blue relax. We are past all that now.

NAGACE: Please ignore Blue's comments.

Also about the infinite, you don't have to let them escape at higher percents. Just keep hitting them and when they get out do a d-smash at higher percents and they will die. They can't block any follow-up attacks.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You're too soft emblem.

Its because you're playing a less manly character than marth, such as Ike

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Ike gets no chicks.

Like litterally, he's not attracted to anyone (though he and Soren have a very affectionate conversation).

lol no homo.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Thanks for further proving my post Sonic Wave. You are indeed correct.

By the way, are you playing sonic with your marth?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I will ignore blue because despite what you might believe i do respect you emblem also i do think you have gathered more knowledge them me at this game and thats why the only big arguments we have had are about characters i play and know about. We wont probably ever see eye to eye on this and i am ok with that and i must admit when this was civil i had fun pushing questions on you. if and most likely when i learn more about diffrent characters i will probably come back here and start questioning some more but since this is getting a bit out of hand i will stop or at least back off for now. i might ask your thoughts on other characters i dont know well

let me just say my high point of fighting games is most likely street fighter alpha 3

if this is written oddly for some reason its b/c its on a lab-top not what i normaly use

till next we meet (maybe another thread) i bid you a fond far well

 

[alchfilosofer]

^^Ike gets no chicks.

Like litterally, he's not attracted to anyone (though he and Soren have a very affectionate conversation).

lol no homo.

that's sad but true, dam intelligent systems and their pervert parings (FE have incesto, pedophilia, elderphilia (and in the first game *chiki whit her -11 years hitted marth*), somekind_of_zoofilia (lagus/mankamutes), and very few homos and some times convine some of these desviations. but still an awesome saga whit tons of normal parings).
But i still hope he may be asexual or a closet_straight

BTW: EmblemLord, were did you get your awesomeness?

 

[Mew2King]

you won't beat azens ike with marth, i don't feel any marth will beat azen's ike

edit - i give up i'm not posting in this thread anymore, but don't post in mine then

 

[Emblem Lord]

What the hell?

Mew2king seriously, what is your problem?

 

[whisperingtears]

Marth never does worse than breaking even accoring to the list. I dont think that makes him unbroken.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't post **** like this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Double post, but it's my thread so who cares.

Remember when I said there are certain match-ups that are highly debateable IMO and pretty much subject to change at any time?

Well I have decided to change some of the match-up ratios a bit for a few characters.

Snake will be change to 6/4 Snake.
Falco will be changed 6/4 Falco.
Rob will be changed to 6/4 ROB.
MK will be changed to 5/5 Even.
Lucario will be changed to 5/5 Even.

Dedede won't be changed. I'm just not convinced that he has any real advantage on Marth. He is just really good at punishing mistakes thanks to the CG, but overall I feel that Marth is a better character then Dedede.

Snake is changed to his advantage since he has an easier time killing Marth and can generally afford to make more mistakes since he is a heavy character and he will live longer. Marth has tippers and gimping to mitigate this though.

ROB simply outranges Marth and there is no real asnwer for dealing with that laser of his. He is weak hit for hit though, has problems killing, and his d-smash is easily DIed out of. Also Marth is overall stronger and even though ROB can gimp him, Marth can gimp him back.

MK and Lucario are both match-ups that are EXTREMELY debatable and whenever I see someone tlak about the match-ups with these two characters, both sides bring up good points. So for now I feel like 50/50 is best for both these match-ups. Marth is actually comparable to both MK and Lucario and I consider both characters to be slightly altered versions of Marth with slightly different weaknesses and strengths.

Falco gets slight advantage for a simple reason really. The shine. It make's it so Marth really can't space against him, and he also has a combo on Marth that can take him from 0 to about 60% damage. It's not really garuanteed since Marth can up out of the CG though. Only works at low percents though. From about 0 to 30 percent.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Whats going on with mew2king and you emblem?...

Also, whats the proper way to escape the CG with marth from falco from 0-30? You mentioned it but you didn't mention a solution on escaping.