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Improve your MK: Tactics, Theory-crafting, & More!
- Thread starter Player-4
- Start date
BluePeachy100
Smash Champion
Running pivot fair > turnaround grab
Running pivot fair > Utilt
Running pivot fair > Utilt
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=285592
Saw this thread and thought "Hmm, this doesn't seem limited to ZSS". Sure, our options tend to be really good, but still...
Saw this thread and thought "Hmm, this doesn't seem limited to ZSS". Sure, our options tend to be really good, but still...
The idea of that thread is a large part of being a high-level player and is one of the biggest reasons that Meta Knight is as good as he is; because there are so many options that it can be difficult to gauge the opponent (although it can be said that the reverse is true, it practically isn't thanks to the abundance of Cookie-Cutter Knights).
Sometimes dash attack to air up B works for me against Snake/Wolf etc. (at higher percentages)
I always ask my opponents, if they could do sth. against it like air dodging, but they often say, they couldnt dodge.
Does a late dash attack to air up B really combo?
Does any1 know about this?
Because this would make dash attack a much better option than grab sometimes.
I always ask my opponents, if they could do sth. against it like air dodging, but they often say, they couldnt dodge.
Does a late dash attack to air up B really combo?
Does any1 know about this?
Because this would make dash attack a much better option than grab sometimes.
Iota
Smash Lord
you can also do usmash from the utilt where it can lead to some airials if you read what there di is going to be
Player-4
See you in 25 years
I killed someone with Usmash yesterday
RMelee
Smash Rookie
Yeah never use USmash. It stales itself and is weaker than Utilt even unstaled. Perhaps it could be used on stage parts to unstale your other moves?
Im pretty sure that USmash has a great ability for juggling characters like Wolf.
lilseph
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 971
Not really, my teammate is a wolf main and USmash really doesn't do me much good in that MU i find.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Stop saying this guys; moves do not stale themselves if they are multihits.
Don't dismiss a move just because it has limited use. I killed Afro Thundah in tournament with Usmash at ~130% with it when he was shielding above me on a platform (Battlefield). I ran under him, charged it a slight amount (~4-6 frames), and shield poked him.
Depending on how you space it, is almost as good as B at shield poking on a platform. It hits so low so that it is virtually guaranteed to poke at the bottom of the shield when it isn't tilted downward -- and many players also tilt their shield upward in anticipation of generic "tilt up for tornado" and DI (especially so if Up-B is stale at kill percents, because the opponent is more likely to only think of horizontal kill moves). It's a multi-hit attack, so it does some damage that drains the shield, the shield drains for the several frames between hits, and, when spaced properly, its shield push moves the opponent so that they can be shield poked from the side.
In addition to this, hyphen-Usmashing someone on a platform isn't very punishable for most of the cast. Usmash has decent shield push (which will often be away from you), if you are using proper timing, then you will be dashing away from them with horizontal movement, and Usmash's post-lag is often overstated; it's ~3-4 frames more than B. Most players (as far as I've seen) don't fall through shield, so that takes an additional 7 frames. Usmash also has decent follow-ups.
The additional movement and variance allows B to remain better, but as far as adding a rarely used move to the stale moves queue, free damage, and surprise kill moves go, Usmash has its uses.
Grizzer
Smash Journeyman
if it stales itself, it also means it unstales other moves by quite alot, thats not too bad
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Usmash is not that bad
You didn't say "Don't use Usmash after Utilt;" you said "Don't use Usmash."
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Really?
lol I think it's his worst move.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
ARRGGHHHH
A move does not take up more than one space in the staling list just because it's a multihit. Usmash does not put 3x usmash in the staling list. Tornado does not put 20x tornado in there. Fix plz.
Jab. Usmash is a really good move that is outshone by his better options.
an attack staling itself is not necessarily a bad thing, taking 3 stale moves off the list for one hit is GOOD, you don't need usmash to be fresh anyway, it has limited application
edit: BPC have you tested it? I've seen it said before so I'm curious, I'm too lazy rofl
edit: BPC have you tested it? I've seen it said before so I'm curious, I'm too lazy rofl
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
It's how the game is coded. Trust me, it's true. It does not stale itself.
As if that means anything.
As NEO said, "Not even his ****ty jab is useless."
It kills about as well as Meta Knight's grounded Up-B, it breaks through Meta Knight's B, it has laser priority (related to the previous), it does a fair amount of damage, it shield pokes well, it is situationally safe, it can be used while moving (related to the previous), it out-ranges most moves above it, it is fast out of shield (for Meta Knight, the only faster out of shield options are spot dodge, forward roll, back roll, grab, and Uair), and it can be charged.
If you hard read a roll, Usmash is generally your strongest kill option (charge it a bit and it's stronger than Up-B IIRC). Uair>charge Usmash kills are easy to bait and easy to time; you can start it during their air dodge and there is only a 1 and 2 frame window of opportunity before the second and third hit, respectively, and it isn't possible to air dodge past it if the opponent fast-falls. It out-ranges and beats virtually every character's Dair.
Also, Usmash doesn't stale itself from hit to hit. Neither does B, Fair, Bair, etc. Think of it as only staling for each accepted input that hits a staling hurt box (a character, the orbs on Brinstar, etc.).
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Guys I really think the m2k involves running off and doing THREE Uairs. At least you can do three Uairs and dimension cape to the ledge without jumping. But I'll check.
edit: FFFUUUU I've searched for so long and the BEST I could find, he doesn't do ANY Uairs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdZH_mLyEs0&feature=related
I'm still pretty sure it's three.
edit: FFFUUUU I've searched for so long and the BEST I could find, he doesn't do ANY Uairs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdZH_mLyEs0&feature=related
I'm still pretty sure it's three.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
It's not reliable due to it being SDIable, though, imo...
Jab when they miss a tech is a better punish than Dtilt. Does more damage, and jab lock with your actual jab instead of Dtilt is usually your best option in that scenario.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
You can do 3, but Mew2King has always done one or two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s99g9ysehSY 2:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUl3MN04MfA
I have over 94 videos of M2K's MK on my iPod (He probably hates me for this.), trust me he does 2 or 1
lilseph
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 971
I was about to say this. USmash is his worst move.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
@Kaffei: Probably because if you do 3, you'll end up too far away from the ledge to DC back onto the stage if someone grabs the ledge, so getting into the habit of DCing from where you'll get past the ledge and onto the stage if someone tries to edgehog you would be better than getting into a habit where you space the DC at a spot where you'll just get edge hogged if someone grabs the ledge and die. (what a long run-on sentence >_>)
Just a guess, though...
I mean it's not a bad move. Looking at the move itself, I'd say it's actually better than jab. But considering that MK has better and more reliable things than Usmash in every situation where Usmash would be useful, and the one or two situations where Jab is actually useful it's far-and-away the best option, makes Usmash, imo, the worst move for HIM.
But the move itself wouldn't be so terrible on a lot of other characters.
Just a guess, though...
Seriously.
I mean it's not a bad move. Looking at the move itself, I'd say it's actually better than jab. But considering that MK has better and more reliable things than Usmash in every situation where Usmash would be useful, and the one or two situations where Jab is actually useful it's far-and-away the best option, makes Usmash, imo, the worst move for HIM.
But the move itself wouldn't be so terrible on a lot of other characters.
Ftilt is not reliable due to it being SDIable, either. It's possible to SDI behind MK and hit him with various strong kill moves. It also doesn't kill. Usmash has more more damage potential, more killing power, is safer on block, and is faster OoS than Ftilt. Usmash has more damage potential than, pokes better than, similar in strength to, and has similar frame data to Up-B.
Dtilt has more range than jab, and it's easier to start a jab lock. Jab shouldn't be used until the end of the jab lock, when Dtilt would be stale anyway. Usmash is less situational than jab.
Not always, especially not when stale moves negotiation is taken into account.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Usmash is a good surprise, and you can perform it while running so you have a sliding smash that occasionally kills and is a decent mind game
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Up smash unstales moves just as much as every other move does... It doesn't stale itself 3 times in a row due to three hits, if all three hits hit, it still only stales just once.
Jab is occasionally good as a gimp mixup. Such as at low percents, if you hit with the right hitbox of dash attack near the ledge, they'll be offstage, and in front of you, and you can jab them, and it can deal a lot of damage + put them in a terrible position.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
How often do you see people SDIing out of Ftilt. It's incredibly fast, and people pop out of Usmash a lot especially if they are light weight. Ftilt is not a kill move.
I don't think it matters if Usmash has more % potential, it does 9% when it's not charged and really how often are you going to charge this move to deal more than 12%. I don't know what you mean by faster OoS. Ftilt comes out on frame 3, usmash comes out on frame 8.
I don't think usmash is bad at all, but it just seems to me like you are overrating it
Orion*
Smash Researcher
i VARY rarely support using upsmash imo
also kaffei, how do you get videos off of youtube -> to comp -> to ipod
also kaffei, how do you get videos off of youtube -> to comp -> to ipod
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I wasn't saying that Usmash stales differently from other multi-hit moveso and I've said multiple times that it doesn't. I was essentially saying that Usmash can be Meta Knight's best mobile kill move when Up-B and Nair are stale.
I SDI Ftilt behind MK and grab him in the ditto.
I was listing the benefits and comparisons of the move(s) overal. For example, the fact that Dsmash kills is a large part of why it is better than Ftilt overall. Dsmash wouldn't be nearly as good of a move if it had Ftilt's knockback. Also, Ftilt comes out either frame 10 or frame 11 OoS. Usmash comes out on frame 8.
I'm trying to persuade the players on the MK board(s) into critically thinking about MK's move set, but that appears to be a lost cause.
