Improve your MK: Tactics, Theory-crafting, & More!

[-LzR-]

Yeah I agree. It's a psychological advantage.
You know, like Lucario holding a fully charged AS with him. Makes you go nuts if he doesn't shoot it.
I guess I gotta try doing this sometime. It's always nice to try different playstyles in friendlies. Like sometimes I just save dsmash for the kill and sometimes punish it. Adds up to my mixup game a little better as it's really important for MK to not get predictable or something.

Also does anyone ever use utilt? I find it pretty crappy. Yeah it has good range and kills when sweetspotted, but it's so unsafe to use compared to let's say uair and it's incredibly rare for me to actually find a place to use that move. It's soooo outclassed like bair.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Juggling mixup, combo finisher, and I remember I once killed someone in Brinstar, using the hitbox extension lol.
Outclased, situational, but not bad at all....

 

[Orion*]

I love utilt, although people that spam it are ******** loooool.

Also-

the balloon always messes up my buffer timings

Ill upB and hit it and then down b as early as possible but because of random hit lag it doesn't come out, and if I buffer like anything after that for when I land I glide attack and die sometimes. Not so often anymore because im just used to it but I remember >_> ...

 

[Dojo]

Utilt I use for a kill move randomly if they're above me on a platform. (BF or SV sometimes)

Especially if their shield is low. It doesn't come out often but I have used it to my advantage quite a few times now.

Namesearch this Razer.

 

[Player-4]

So is it any good to avoid dsmash and use other punishers? I really would like to have a semiguaranteed killmove whenever I want if I keep it fresh.
Why not just upB or dtilt OoS or nair or dair. Why Dsmash?

A simple rule of thumb is to stop using your Dsmash after 70% so it'll be fresh when you want to kill with it. But yeah, it's good to save your Dsmash for kills, it's one of your best killing tools and you can set up into it.

 

[Player-4]

Perfect Bair beats Diddy's Up-B and MK won't get hit by the barrels

 

[SeekHeart]

can someone tell me how to play an effective air/ground game?

 

[Dojo]

Wtf.... what kind of a question...

Okay look. While standing, sometimes walking, you hold slightly forward on your control stick and press A three times. Sometimes if they're close press Z instead..

There's your ground game.

You use x or y to jump and use your downward aerials, upward aerials, forward aerials, and press B alot.

Effective air game.

GG.

 

[C.J.]

lmao @ above. Where is the damn like button?

 

[Abel1994]

Well you can improve mk by

B>B>B combo
or
^B>^B>^B combo

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Fair OoS comes out faster than Dsmash and could be a more reliable substitute for Ftilt3 OoS. Fair OoS comes out on frame 10 whereas Ftilt3 comes out on frame 16. With forward DI during the Fair you can reach nearly as far if not as far as Ftilt3 in fewer frames(6 frames faster) and less ending lag(30 frames cooldown vs 9 on Fair), thus allowing MK to follow up on his now aerial opponent. Plus I don't think anyone really likes that insane ending lag on Ftilt either.

 

[B.A.M.]

you're a genius RM. Who wouldve thought Fair OoS comes out faster than Shield drop Dsmash. This man is droppin some knowledge. Talking about lag as if thats part of this character. Oh and Dojo ftw.

 

[Exdeath]

Wtf.... what kind of a question...

Okay look. While standing, sometimes walking, you hold slightly forward on your control stick and press A three times. Sometimes if they're close press Z instead..

There's your ground game.

You use x or y to jump and use your downward aerials, upward aerials, forward aerials, and press B alot.

Effective air game.

GG.

No Up-B? I am disappointed in you.

 

[Dojo]

You say that as if I care. :*

 

[Dakpo]

Zss boards are reviewing the match up , if some of you guys would care to join us.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418&page=137#post12249700

 

[Kaffei]

Understand your opponent's flow of power.. and use it against them.

 

[Player-4]

Thanks Yoda

 

[!!!RM!!!]

I found a new little mindgame with dash attack. Know how when you click left or right on the control stick you dash a few feet and then stop? Well look at MK and see how after he stops his wings disappear. That's the end of his dash animation when you don't continue dashing. Well as long as your wings are still out you can dash attack. You can dash forward and let yourself stop, and right before his wings disappear press A to dash attack. Its really deceiving. You completely stop, but then a dash attack comes out at regular dash speed.

It'll look like you've completely stopped and can't dash attack without dashing again. They might think you messed up and see it as an opening... and that's when you dash attack. If they don't fall for it and keep their distance you can always retreating Fair in time since your momentum almost completely stops at the end of it.

You probably wanna keep your distance so they don't think you're just going in for a SH Fair or GSL too. The idea is to bait them out of their shield and eventually condition them to fear you simply dashing at them.

Go Meta Mindgames!!! ;D

 

[Nic64]

Interesting, I'd use cstick for it though so you don't risk jab coming out

 

[ぱみゅ]

I've been using that from ages now, lol

Now, my two cents: when you send your opponent offstage, spam Uairs and bait an airdodge while doing a rising one. Punish with Dair.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I found a new little mindgame with dash attack. Know how when you click left or right on the control stick you dash a few feet and then stop? Well look at MK and see how after he stops his wings disappear. That's the end of his dash animation when you don't continue dashing. Well as long as your wings are still out you can dash attack. You can dash forward and let yourself stop, and right before his wings disappear press A to dash attack. Its really deceiving. You completely stop, but then a dash attack comes out at regular dash speed.

It'll look like you've completely stopped and can't dash attack without dashing again. They might think you messed up and see it as an opening... and that's when you dash attack. If they don't fall for it and keep their distance you can always retreating Fair in time since your momentum almost completely stops at the end of it.

You probably wanna keep your distance so they don't think you're just going in for a SH Fair or GSL too. The idea is to bait them out of their shield and eventually condition them to fear you simply dashing at them.

Go Meta Mindgames!!! ;D

Old. I do this once in a while.

MK's dash mixups are amazing. I want to see more people do dash forward -> reverse grounded Shuttle Loop (and reverse SL out of shield too but that's another story)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Two things... What's good about the first option, and how do you do the second? I've wanted to know how that works for quite a while now.

 

[Kaffei]

MK's dash mixups are amazing. I want to see more people do dash forward -> reverse grounded Shuttle Loop

???? wat??

 

[!!!RM!!!]

I'm gonna guess and say he means dashing right and turning GSL around so you glide to the left. Then you can eat their F roll with glide attack.

 

[Exdeath]

???? wat??

It's mostly useful against players who are conditioned to properly punishing Up-B with dashing shield, rising Fair (Diddy), etc. You're gliding behind them (dash attack is virtually always safe because shield grabbing isn't an option) and you can cancel Up-B and land behind them before they can react if it's unexpected.

 

[Kaffei]

i dont get it lol
can u draw a picture

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Try it like this: Start running to the right. Now GSL, but hold the control stick up-left instead of just up. You'll do a GSL but facing the left instead of the right.


If you get a grab on Snake near the ledge you can ground release instead of Dthrow or Fthrow. Snake can either go to the ledge or air dodge back onstage. Stay near the edge and put out a Dair. If he tries to go to the ledge the Dair will connect and you get a free gimp. If he air dodges you can Tornado or Nair. Both set up for juggles and Nair can kill at higher percents. Haven't tested this on a human, but it'll probably work. >_<

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Good snakes don't get gimped. Also, forgetting snake's uair? It's not a great situation for him, but he can nail you with a rising uair, and then still recover.

 

[Kaffei]

Good snakes don't get gimped. Also, forgetting snake's uair? It's not a great situation for him, but he can nail you with a rising uair, and then still recover.

So Ally is not a good Snake? Tell that to Mew2King

Try it like this: Start running to the right. Now GSL, but hold the control stick up-left instead of just up. You'll do a GSL but facing the left instead of the right.

....What is the purpose of that. Is that to counter an approach or something

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Ummm it depends where Snake breaks out of the grab I guess. I dunno what the exact advantage is on grounded release, but if you can read them just right its a juggle setup or gimp. And you could always mix up between shielding an anticipated Uair and Dairing. Just putting it out there as an option since all I see is Dthrow at the ledge these days.

....What is the purpose of that. Is that to counter an approach or something

It counters some of GSL's counters like diddy's fair like he said.

 

[-LzR-]

Amazing, I gotta try that reverse thing, I get faired out of my GSL way too much >_>

 

[Staco]

Good snakes don't get gimped. Also, forgetting snake's uair? It's not a great situation for him, but he can nail you with a rising uair, and then still recover.

Of course they get gimped.
Outspace the UAir, thats the stock.

 

[Abel1994]

All snakes can get gimped.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

If your opponent is near the ledge you might be able to put drill rush to use if they're stupid lol. Space drill rush so that it edge cancels. When you edge cancel you can go into a Dair, Nair, Nado, whatever . Drill rush their shield, edge cancel, Nair them while they're in the falling animation. Then turn towards them and laugh right in their face.

But on a more serious note I was looking at Marth's frame data and wrote some things down:

Defense
- If marth misses a grab you can do anything you want lol. 23 frames to dsmash, grab, etc.
- 19 frames after air dodge to do something. You can Shuttle loop that ****. ^_^
- Dsmash or ftilt him out of jab on shield lol.
- Tornado his ftilt OoS. It works. O_o
- Grab or GSL his dtilt OoS if it doesn't tip. If it tips then Ftilt or dsmash it.
- All his smashes on shield = dash grab, dash into Nair(you have 18 frames to run next to him), Ftilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or even Tornado.
- His Nair is annoying. You technically can't do anything against the second hit on shield if it's fast falled. But if it isn't then you can Ftilt or Dsmash it. :D
- If he doesn't SHFF his Fair then you can Fair or even aerial shuttle loop it. Crazy. .__.
- You can GSL out of dancing blade between hits on shield.
- Dolphin Slash's invince goes from frames 1-5. But it has over half a second of landing lag and the hitbox is out for like 1/10 a second so go crazy lol.
- If he somehow hits your shield with Shield Breaker don't get scared. He's in cooldown for 31 frames(half a second) so you can do pretty much anything you want.

Offense
- He can grab Dtilt on shield so be careful with it.
- He can safely Dolphin Slash between Ftilt hits even if they're buffered, so be careful with Ftilt when you're at kill percents.
- He shouldn't be able to grab a retreating(and autocancelled) SH Fair, but he can definitely grab it if you don't retreat it.
- Dair on shield can be Uair'd or Fair'd OoS.
- Fsmash on shield can be punished by Dancing Blade.
- Dsmash on shield is punishable on shield by dash attack or Dancing Blade.

Trying to just explain things instead of saying "you have X frames to do this" and use broader, more easily relate-able terms.

 

[Kaffei]

If your opponent is near the ledge you might be able to put drill rush to use if they're stupid lol. Space drill rush so that it edge cancels. When you edge cancel you can go into a Dair, Nair, Nado, whatever . Drill rush their shield, edge cancel, Nair them while they're in the falling animation. Then turn towards them and laugh right in their face.

But on a more serious note I was looking at Marth's frame data and wrote some things down:

Defense
- If marth misses a grab you can do anything you want lol. 23 frames to dsmash, grab, etc.
- 19 frames after air dodge to do something. You can Shuttle loop that ****. ^_^
- Dsmash or ftilt him out of jab on shield lol.
- Tornado his ftilt OoS. It works. O_o
- Grab or GSL his dtilt OoS if it doesn't tip. If it tips then Ftilt or dsmash it.
- All his smashes on shield = dash grab, dash into Nair(you have 18 frames to run next to him), Ftilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or even Tornado.
- His Nair is annoying. You technically can't do anything against the second hit on shield if it's fast falled. But if it isn't then you can Ftilt or Dsmash it. :D
- If he doesn't SHFF his Fair then you can Fair or even aerial shuttle loop it. Crazy. .__.
- You can GSL out of dancing blade between hits on shield.
- Dolphin Slash's invince goes from frames 1-5. But it has over half a second of landing lag and the hitbox is out for like 1/10 a second so go crazy lol.
- If he somehow hits your shield with Shield Breaker don't get scared. He's in cooldown for 31 frames(half a second) so you can do pretty much anything you want.

Offense
- He can grab Dtilt on shield so be careful with it.
- He can safely Dolphin Slash between Ftilt hits even if they're buffered, so be careful with Ftilt when you're at kill percents.
- He shouldn't be able to grab a retreating(and autocancelled) SH Fair, but he can definitely grab it if you don't retreat it.
- Dair on shield can be Uair'd or Fair'd OoS.
- Fsmash on shield can be punished by Dancing Blade.
- Dsmash on shield is punishable on shield by dash attack or Dancing Blade.

Trying to just explain things instead of saying "you have X frames to do this" and use broader, more easily relate-able terms.

I die d

Good work man

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

- He can safely Dolphin Slash between Ftilt hits even if they're buffered, so be careful with Ftilt when you're at kill percents.

To what %? Also, this means bowser can too.

 

[Exdeath]

It's not like he's saying that Marth has a guaranteed Up-B when Meta Knight is Ftilting him on hit; that's on block/whiff.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

- Dsmash or ftilt him out of jab on shield lol.
- Tornado his ftilt OoS. It works. O_o
- Grab or GSL his dtilt OoS if it doesn't tip. If it tips then Ftilt or dsmash it.
- All his smashes on shield = dash grab, dash into Nair(you have 18 frames to run next to him), Ftilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or even Tornado.
- His Nair is annoying. You technically can't do anything against the second hit on shield if it's fast falled. But if it isn't then you can Ftilt or Dsmash it. :D
- You can GSL out of dancing blade between hits on shield.
- If he somehow hits your shield with Shield Breaker don't get scared. He's in cooldown for 31 frames(half a second) so you can do pretty much anything you want.
- He can grab Dtilt on shield so be careful with it.
- Dair on shield can be Uair'd or Fair'd OoS.
- Fsmash on shield can be punished by Dancing Blade.
- Dsmash on shield is punishable on shield by dash attack or Dancing Blade.

o_o" I assumed people would assume it was OoS after all the OoS stuff in the post. My bad. But yeah its on shield. Frame one invince is gay as **** you can't do anything to it. >___>

Oh yeah, and a little something on Ftilt:

First of all, here's the data:

1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out

1 frame of shield stun on all hits


Now, we all know how Ftilt on shield can be a scary thing, i guess, since MK can release Ftilt2 on reaction or read if you let go of shield. Truth is, its not all that great a position in the ditto. MK's fastest option to beat ftilt on shield is easily GSL. It comes out on frame 8 and invince starts on frame 5. This basically makes GSL a frame 5 move OoS which is insane. Its faster than grab, uair, or nair OoS by a frame or more.

Well lets look at how long those 4 vulnerable frames are in milliseconds: (1000/60)*4 = 66.67 milliseconds. Average reaction time is anywhere from 160ms - 250ms from what I've found. So even with great reflexes its still nearly three as fast as most people can probably react to at their peak. What this means is that reacting to GSL OoS would require god-like reflexes that you just won't see at any tournament with all the pressure on. So reacting to GSL is out, now what about reading?

Well, your opponent has a 1/15 second window to attempt a read or else the GSL will hit. So unless your opponent is Daigo or you're getting predictable with your GSLs OoS you should have a 93.33% chance of hitting through it in time. Now with all the mindgames that go on with the timing of Ftilt it would seem obvious that buffering the GSL would be best since any more than 1 frame of hesitation or mis-timing would mean GSL breaks through. So by buffering the GSL you beat all options besides buffered Ftilt2. Now what if your opponent buffers the first two hits? Well that's where you have to think a little rather than just buffering it. If they buffer the first two hits the individual slashes will come out on frames 3 and 6. If they buffer the third hit then they know that you can punish them OoS with dsmash or anything else you want. So they will most definitely not buffer the third hit in most situations. Since they wont buffer Ftilt3 in this situation, you get the GSL guaranteed. This also works with other moves OoS that can reach around as far as Ftilt3 and come out early.(Dancing Blade comes to mind)

Oh wait, nearly everyone besides MK and Marth's options OoS with Ftilt range come out on frame 12. Oh well, more Ftilt **** for MK. But yeah, outside of marth and MK(and one or two other characters I'm sure...) Ftilt is pretty safe on shield. You can punish any reactions you see fairly easily outside of B Roll or something.

 

[Max Ketchum]

lol @ people making up reasons for why I suggested dashing reverse up B

I do it when people are falling back to the stage from high up. When they see you committing to running near the edge, they may get scared and hold towards the center of the stage and air dodge/do an aerial facing the edge while falling since they think you'll overshoot them as you run. It's the same idea as running past them and pivot grabbing their landing instead of standing in place and going for the obvious grab/other landing punish.


ROFL @ how do you do reverse up B out of shield

Tap diagonal up+away on the control stick and hit B while shielding...-_-

That's with tap jump on of course, and logic would indicate that if you're going to attempt it with tap jump off that you should hit a jump button before anything else

 

[Kaffei]

lol @ people making up reasons for why I suggested dashing reverse up B

I do it when people are falling back to the stage from high up. When they see you committing to running near the edge, they may get scared and hold towards the center of the stage and air dodge/do an aerial facing the edge while falling since they think you'll overshoot them as you run. It's the same idea as running past them and pivot grabbing their landing instead of standing in place and going for the obvious grab/other landing punish.

I found a different use for this recently. ty so much for telling me about it