Improve your MK: Tactics, Theory-crafting, & More!

[Max Ketchum]

Kaffei, what use did you find for it?

 

[Exdeath]

lol @ people making up reasons for why I suggested dashing reverse up B

I do it when people are falling back to the stage from high up. When they see you committing to running near the edge, they may get scared and hold towards the center of the stage and air dodge/do an aerial facing the edge while falling since they think you'll overshoot them as you run. It's the same idea as running past them and pivot grabbing their landing instead of standing in place and going for the obvious grab/other landing punish.


ROFL @ how do you do reverse up B out of shield

Tap diagonal up+away on the control stick and hit B while shielding...-_-

That's with tap jump on of course, and logic would indicate that if you're going to attempt it with tap jump off that you should hit a jump button before anything else

I wasn't making up reasons why you suggested it; I was stating why I use it, which I've done since before you mentioned it.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

How about this?

If you're in front and around a short hop to a full hop's height above your opponent you can FF air dodge into dtilt to beat most of your opponent's reliable options OoS(since you can threaten with tornado or dair/fair they're inclined to stay in shield and punish you on reaction). Lets say this is the MK ditto where your opponent's OoS options are the deadliest(outside of Dolphy Slash OoS or other frame 1 invince moves). What can they do to punish you on FF air dodge? They can Dtilt, Ftilt, GSL, Dsmash, or GSL OoS. Dsmash OoS comes out on frame 12 with shield drop, so Dtilt will hit him before it hits you. GSL's invince comes out on frame 5 and is also out-sped by Dtilt. Now Dtilt and Ftilt may come out on frame 3 normally, but OoS they come out on frame 10 at the earliest. Dtilt out-speeds all of these options with general ease.

Now that's all fine and dandy, but what about reaction time? Wouldn't they be able to react to your air dodge in time to get their move out before yours? The answer is, well, no. Since FF full hop leaves you aerial for only 42 frames and air dodge invince lasts until frame 28, you can begin the air dodge on frame 19 or later of your jump and bypass even GSL OoS on reaction(their reaction). Average reaction time=200ms, 200ms=12 frames, 12 frames+GSL invince on frame 5=average player gets invince on frame 17.

TL;DR: It beats everything OoS while including reaction time in the equation.

Mathematically, its a sound strategy. It outspeeds even MK's options OoS and yadda, yadda, yadda. It could be applied to general landing as MK against any character who may be threatened enough by Dair or Fair to attempt to punish you out of shield(which is everyone I believe) instead of going for an aerial without shielding against a possible attack first.

You can see an example in this match between Ally and Anti at Pound V around 0:08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNg3cA2XHY

Opinions? Situationally is this reliable?

 

[cMeDu]

Mathematically yes, but many metaknights will upb or react when you're above them before you have a chance to do that...
so it's not as great as it would sound

but definitely situational

 

[!!!RM!!!]

If they react to MK being in that position with GSL then they're gonna run into a bunch of air dodge>fairs once you start reading that consistent reaction. ^_^

I'm not saying you just jump in front of them and hope they shield. I mean doing this off a platform or if/when they attempt to juggle you with SHFF Uair>Shield your aerial and shield grab. They're gonna be reacting to you doing an aerial on their shield, but you'll air dodge and Dtilt their option before it comes out/invince starts up.

It could be a good mixup instead of jumping away. Just saying. :/

 

[Joaco]

I could be good but is risky, I think.

 

[Kaffei]

Something a lot of people should do, but don't do.. Tilt your shield in the direction of where the attack will be/where you think the attack will be

 

[Laem]

yo how legit is it to dair marth out of upb, as in mk's hanging on the ledge and knows when marth's gonna upb and then drops off and jump+dairs with a stagespike hit for the stock.

i did it vs mr. r in tourney last weekend and he told me he always prepares to tech that (even tho he failed this time) but is it really legit?

 

[-LzR-]

Why not just invincinair?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Because by then you're not going to be invincible any more. The idea is an option after your invincibility has run out.

 

[etecoon]

it's dangerous to edge guard like that because you could get stage spiked yourself, dolphin slash has invincibility which makes it very difficult to intercept once marth is already that close to the stage

 

[Exdeath]

it's dangerous to edge guard like that because you could get stage spiked yourself, dolphin slash has invincibility which makes it very difficult to intercept once marth is already that close to the stage

You can prepare to tech it/tech it, though. The window is fairly limited for Marth to do it.

 

[Staco]

yo how legit is it to dair marth out of upb, as in mk's hanging on the ledge and knows when marth's gonna upb and then drops off and jump+dairs with a stagespike hit for the stock.

i did it vs mr. r in tourney last weekend and he told me he always prepares to tech that (even tho he failed this time) but is it really legit?

semi legit
marth can wait for you to drop and time himself in the right moment to hit you out of the dair

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

I don't see why you don't just do a fast falling invincinair, that way after invince has wore off you're now low enough where Marth's upB isn't gonna hit you, and you can then reverse SL back onstage giving you yet another chance to gimp him, I do this against Marths, but I can't say I have played any real legit legit Marths so.... I wanna know other people's thoughts.

 

[Orion*]

I don't see why you don't just do a fast falling invincinair, that way after invince has wore off you're now low enough where Marth's upB isn't gonna hit you, and you can then reverse SL back onstage giving you yet another chance to gimp him, I do this against Marths, but I can't say I have played any real legit legit Marths so.... I wanna know other people's thoughts.

Because A, if you spam it they can wait and then youre on the ledge and he's on stage (GAAAAY)

and B, its safe to cover the ledge because if you miss and he's on the ledge you can get a lot of damage in lol

 

[KassandraNova]

Marths up b scares me. :<

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

Because A, if you spam it they can wait and then youre on the ledge and he's on stage (GAAAAY)

and B, its safe to cover the ledge because if you miss and he's on the ledge you can get a lot of damage in lol

I suppose, but I think you would have to do it every time for them to really capitalize on it, I still think you should go for it every once in a while, if you get it right they lose a stock, if you do it wrong they have better position than you (assuming you didn't get stupid and get yourself spiked). I think I would take the risk here and there.... but that's just me.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

imo it'd be better to wait above the ledge, flash your shield for a sec to fake a ledgegrab, so he reacts to you and either double jumps or DB stalls, and then grab the ledge. The worst that could happen is he reads you and just dolphin slashes onto the ledge. The best that could happen, however, is you get a stock. You don't put yourself at risk of getting up-B gayed and have to worry about teching and ****.

Not really theorycraft, but I think its pretty lol. Get Lucas offstage, grab da ledge, and shuttle loop his PKT2. He has like no options to beat it unless he can double jump onto the stage.

SL too gooooooood <3

 

[etecoon]

I thought PKT2 beats SL?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yn5ZRouWqI#t=2m38s

 

[!!!RM!!!]

SL outranges it from the front. Like, they PKT to the left, you SL to the right. It also outranges it horizontally, not vertically like in that video. :/

 

[ぱみゅ]

If SL ouranges it, then any aerial move does....

If he's recovering low, Dair.
If he's recovering horizontally, Fair or Bair.
If he's recovering high, I wouldn't challenge PKT2, I'd just wait and Tornado

 

[Orion*]

I suppose, but I think you would have to do it every time for them to really capitalize on it, I still think you should go for it every once in a while, if you get it right they lose a stock, if you do it wrong they have better position than you (assuming you didn't get stupid and get yourself spiked). I think I would take the risk here and there.... but that's just me.

sometimes if you KNOW you have the read then yeah, but lol

like otherwise marth will get some damage in if mks on the ledge

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Did discussion just become meaningless? Tower of Babel arc from JLA anyone?

 

[Orion*]

Im raging so hard at the altered post atm >_>

 

[Laem]

tsssk you people
not of any use AT ALL

<3

 

[Master Raven]

So I fought ESAM's Pika on Pictochat yesterday and honestly I am banning that stage next time we play >_> At one point he CGed me and Bthrowed me into the missiles (I got hit by BOTH) and I winded up getting around 60% damage. I think it's clear that FD is a better stage to get CPed to by Pika than Picto. I'll admit that I can just as equally take full advantage of the hazards there, but because of the way the stage is designed it can be really easy for either player to get ****ed so bad from just one mistake, so while not banning FD would still be a risk in that it'd be easier for him to camp and CG me, at the very least there wouldn't be any dangerous hazards to make things even worse, plus they're both flat anyway (my initial impression was that the platform drawings would help for this MU, but it didn't help as much as I thought). The set was recorded so I'll show you guys that particular match when it comes up.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Picto is one of Pika's best stages. Its jolts there are terribly annoying there...
I'd go against Pikachu anywhere else, not even FD sounds bad in this MU...

 

[Master Raven]

ESAM loves Picto and will take anyone there if they don't ban it.

 

[etecoon]

am I the only one that doesn't think FD is a bad MK stage? I mean I wouldn't want to play diddy, falco, or ice climbers there, and a few other characters do really well but that to me is just because THEY are broken on that stage, not that MK is bad on it...

 

[Master Raven]

I don't think MK is bad on FD, it's just that there are better stages to play most MUs on. I'm very partial to BF as far as neutrals go.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It just happens that MK is more limited there than almost anywhere else as he's very able to abuse or adapt most stage features such as platforms or moving elements.

But yes, few ground-based characters are GREATLY buffed due to the lack of something there.
Also, I think SV or even BF is even better for Diddy than FD... =P

 

[Orion*]

am I the only one that doesn't think FD is a bad MK stage? I mean I wouldn't want to play diddy, falco, or ice climbers there, and a few other characters do really well but that to me is just because THEY are broken on that stage, not that MK is bad on it...

Honestly FD is a REALLY momentum based stage and I think its about the same as BF/SV vs most of the other top tier characters.

I don't think MK is bad on FD, it's just that there are better stages to play most MUs on. I'm very partial to BF as far as neutrals go.

I thought you where a YI guy for some reason

 

[Kaffei]

id actually rather play falco on FD than on BF or SV
easier to keep that gay bird off stage in my opinion

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'd take ESAM to Picto. Mostly because random chance of winning is better than no chance. Ho ho ho.

 

[Exdeath]

I'd take ESAM to Picto. Mostly because random chance of winning is better than no chance. Ho ho ho.

I actually agree with this. If I feel that I have little to no chance vs. someone and Brinstar is banned, I will take them to Pictochat.

 

[Kaffei]

**** pictochat stupid *** stage

but it's such a neat looking and fun stage at the same time lol

 

[whoknowswhatdIber]

I think FD is great for the first 2 seconds so I can D-throw then shuttle loop them off-screen and make it to safety

 

[Kaffei]

what the hell does that even mean
so u're just gonna dash grab everytime u start a match
ok lemme just jump over you and punish u

smh

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Kay here's what you do. Condition your opponent to hesitate after being Dthrown. On their first (and possibly second) stock(s) stay grounded after Dthrowing them and punish airdodges with grabs, Nairs, and Tornados. Things like that will put the thought "Oh wait, I should stop airdodging after getting Dthrown so I stop getting *****" in their head. Once you think they've gotten the message by observing their actions then you're guaranteed an early, early kill. Get them near a ledge, preferably, and Dthrow>Aerial Shuttle Loop them for a 70% or lower kill. Character dependent, but you get the idea.

Just do anything that gets them to think anything BUT airdodge and you'll ****.

 

[Kaffei]

Now that's sexy