~ Ike Boards Bi-Weeklies Thread ~ Come in and discuss ideas! ~

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya, Lylat is really laggy. Too much going on in the background.

I'd prefer PS1 over Halberd, but I don't care much either way.

 

[theeboredone]

I'm not confusing CP'in with Starters. I am going on the premise of this is a tournament rather than a ditto scene. Isn't that the goal of the bi-weeklies? To help us get better in the tournament scene? Even if it is against Ike and secondaries? Are we going into a tournament expecting Halberd to be a starter? If not Lylat, put PS1 back in there. At least something that is more commonly used.

And that also makes me wonder, are we allowed to use our secondaries to start the match? For all I know, if I see Halberd as a starter, I may be tempted to go Snake or MK.

As of now Nys, it's 3:1 with Halberd not being a starter.

 

[Nysyarc]

Please take the time to read over all of this carefully before posting any more refutations. If you don't understand something that I'm trying to say, ask me to clarify. I don't mean to sound condescending, I'd just rather not re-word the same thing a different way for the fourth time to justify myself.

I said bans and strikes, not starters and CPs, lol. Also gaaah you referred to a set as a match. We need to get on the same page for terminology if we're going to debate this. I know you're aware of what everything is actually called so please refer to them properly, makes things much easier.

It's 3:1 against Halberd cause you guys aren't getting the concept here or I'm not conveying it properly. I've stated several times now that the first match of each set is always always always going to be an Ike ditto. For every set. It needs to be that way to be fair and allow for one Ike ditto in the set.

Because the first match is a guaranteed Ike ditto via the rules (I probably never used the word 'rules' specifically until now, but yes, that is going to be a rule), it does not matter what other characters would benefit from the striking process. The only thing that matters is making sure the only Ike ditto you get to play in each set contains as little shenanigans as possible. Halberd allows for fewer Ike-specific shenanigans than PS1. Please tell me you at least agree with that.

After the first match, the winner must play as a secondary character, which they will select first along with banning one of the starter or CP stages. After they have selected their secondary character and banned a stage, the loser may choose to stay as Ike or pick a secondary as well, and counter pick any stage other than the one that was banned.

It doesn't matter if offline tournaments have different starter stages than the bi-weeklies because in offline tournaments you're not going to be playing an Ike ditto for the first match of every single set. It's not like you're going to be able to practice stage striking against MK here, you'll only be fighting Ike at first.

 

[theeboredone]

CP'in = ban because you have to state your ban. Strikes = starters, because you have to well...strike the starters. That's the point I was trying to get across.

I know this is coming in late, but I'm starting to question if most of here need anymore Ike ditto experience. Again, what is the purpose of this bi-weekly? Is it to have fun? If that's the case, then alright...we'll do it your way. If it's to get better, then I propose we provide some measures to ensure we get better. Playing Ike dittos as you said...is not a common theme in tournament, so it's sort of moot. There is some incentive to promote getting better when we're allowed to pick a secondary...that goes against Ike naturally. The person playing Ike gets his experience to a certain extent (how many of us are actually good with secondaries?) In general though, someone is just getting experience vs Ike...who is not a common character in tournaments.

I honestly don't know the solution, because I don't know the purpose of these bi-weeklies. It's not too late to change rules if we have too. Afterall, this just got revived yesterday. I am not questioning you Nys, I am questioning everyone here. Why do you participate in these bi-weeklies?

Nys, I get that you want Ike vs Ike first match. That doesn't mean Halberd is more fair than CS, PS1, or Delfino. All can be debated.

 

[Nysyarc]

I know this is coming in late, but I'm starting to question if most of here need anymore Ike ditto experience. Again, what is the purpose of this bi-weekly? Is it to have fun? If that's the case, then alright...we'll do it your way. If it's to get better, then I propose we provide some measures to ensure we get better. Playing Ike dittos as you said...is not a common theme in tournament, so it's sort of moot. There is some incentive to promote getting better when we're allowed to pick a secondary...that goes against Ike naturally. The person playing Ike gets his experience to a certain extent (how many of us are actually good with secondaries?) In general though, someone is just getting experience vs Ike...who is not a common character in tournaments.

When an Ike main plays as Ike against a more experienced Ike main's Ike (plenty of Ike in this sentence), it's not just about the match-up experience because that's close to irrelevant for the ditto anyways. You can see first hand how the player uses Ike, experiencing it for yourself and understanding what works against you instead of just watching a video.

Match-up experience will come from the second and potentially third matches in the set, while learning by example and being outplayed happens in the first. Like you said, not many of us will have secondaries that are up to snuff, so it may even be more important for general experience to play against your opponent's main, even if it is a ditto.

Nys, I get that you want Ike vs Ike first match. That doesn't mean Halberd is more fair than CS, PS1, or Delfino. All can be debated.

Well it's not just that I want it to be an Ike ditto, partly because that was what the bi-weeklies were originally about. There has to be 1 match in each set where either both players use Ike, or both players use a secondary. If you do it any differently, the balance of the set is thrown off with one player using Ike twice and the other only using Ike once.

Having both players start every set as a secondary defeats the purpose of us even being Ike mains. I believe we already had a discussion way back in this thread about why having the first match be the Ike ditto makes much more sense than the last match, and it obviously couldn't be the second match.

As for Halberd vs PS1/CS/Delfino, yes it's debatable and I've already stated my argument for Halberd and my arguments against the other three. The only one of those three I might be convinced to consider switching with Halberd would be Castle Siege, as it's issues (the minor lip on the first transition, walk-offs on the second, rare glitches putting you under the stage on the third) are not as intrusive as the others.

Halberd doesn't really have any issues though unless you count the laser but like I said, it's telegraphed and easy to avoid + escape with SDI even if you're hit.

Side note / question:

I think maybe in order to guarantee some additional MU experience, the player who just lost a match should be locked in to Ike for their counter pick, instead of being able to choose a secondary to counter their opponent's secondary. Thoughts?

 

[Ussi]

This is strictly for fun and chilling with people for me

 

[Nysyarc]

And that's fine, but there will always be some players looking to improve and get experience from these events. We have to make sure it stays as competitive as possible for their sake.

 

[Heartstring]

this is pretty much just fun with potential improvement as a sideeffect. if anyone is going to pick up on a bad ike habit and tear me a new one for it; it will be another ike main.

nykes reasoning is pretty sound though, ill roll with it

 

[jamlosingthegame]

One of Halberd's issues was the claw. It was apparently prominent enough to warrant being removed from Project M.

I really have nothing against the stage list at the moment or whatever possible changes made. One thing that I'm wondering about is how we do rankings since we're adding secondaries. Just curious about it, but I guess it can wait until the first bi-weekly.

 

[Nysyarc]

I'd actually forgotten about the claw, but it shouldn't be too big a problem. It doesn't activate very often at all and I've only seen it actually mess up a person's stock once or twice... combo'd them off-stage just after they were hit away. The odds of that happening are pretty slim though.

For the stage list, Rainbow Cruise and/or Brinstar will likely be added, at least at first and we'll see what kind of feedback it brings about.

I'm sure we'll figure something out in the panel for rankings. I think I'd had a system worked out before, like way back when we first had the idea, but I'll have to think of it again now because I never recorded it.

 

[Ussi]

Do we really want more of this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37NEKiOq3Eg

we should have more of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNzvrL4CsZI&feature=relmfu

 

[Heartstring]

I admit, I laughed really hard
I never got to play smash football

 

[Foodies]

I might drop by for one of these depending on my schedule. I've been busy lately though, so it might not be for a while.

 

[Teh Brettster]

football

Why can't America just CALL IT THIS?

 

[Nysyarc]

Because then we'd have to rename Football, which is way more popular in NA.

Lol Ussi, I remember seeing those back when you first posted them.

Good stuff Foodies, hope to see you around some time! This weekend I'll be inviting a bunch of people who used to participate in these via PM. I want at least the first event to be as big as it can while running smoothly so people want to come back for the next one.

 

[theeboredone]

Why can't we rename Soccer to Football? Why did America go create Baseball when there was Cricket? It's simple...cause we're 'merica.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Well, Cricket and Baseball are two different sports.

Soccer and (internationally known) Football are the same sport.

It would be like if we had taken Cricket, called it baseball, and then invented a new sport and called it Cricket. It's really silly.
ESPECIALLY when you consider that FOOTBALL has to do with FOOTS and BALLS... and American football has a ball that isn't shaped like a ball, and it rarely has anything to do with feet.

But I'm rambling. And this isn't the right place for it. Sorry for that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Both Soccer and Football were terms made in the UK. >_>

 

[Heartstring]

Because then we'd have to rename Football, which is way more popular in NA.

PROBLEM SOLVED

Both Soccer and Football were terms made in the UK. >_>

This is true, soccer is a derogatory nickname for football originally used by the elitist upper-class of england which is derived from the term 'association football'
This is due to the fact that the lower class played 'association football' (soccer to you guys) while the upper class played 'rugby football' (the full name of what is commonly known as rugby)

 

[theeboredone]

Well, Cricket and Baseball are two different sports.

If you travel outside the US, you will always hear foreigners talk about how America wanted to be different, so they created Baseball to not deal with Cricket.

Have we decided what to do with Halberd?

 

[XLR8TION]

Brawl soccer sounds fun lol. Though I would love to do the ike bi-weeklies, my wii is being illiterate with the brawl disc...so yea lol.

TL:DR
My wii doesn't read anymore lol.

 

[Nysyarc]

[collapse="Football vs Soccer"]Confrontation between "men" in "Football":

Confrontation between men in Football:

Hence why American Football has kept it's name without contest: Soccer is scared.[/collapse]

Anyways, seriously, back to only bi-weeklies discussion plz kthx.

I'm obviously still for Halberd as a starter and so far nobody has refuted my reasoning to have it over PS1/CS/Delfino. We can have a vote on it obviously but I don't think it would kill us to try the first tourney with Halberd as a starter and see how it goes.

@XLR8, you can always try getting Brawl on an external USB drive and loading it through Homebrew that way, as long as it's just your disc drive that's the problem. You'd have to look into the details online for doing that yourself but if you really want to play smash and can't get a new Wii it may be your best option.

 

[Slaps]

gonna reduce that rage.. I wanna get back to those 4 Ike Free For Alls on pirate ship, delfino, and that ice climber stage (can't remember XD)

 

[Heartstring]

You mean summit? Sounds different to do that...

I'll go with halberd as a neutral, Although to be honest I need practise on delphino more than anything, jsut because i hate that stage with a passion

 

[theeboredone]

I'd prefer PS1 or Delf since Lylat is too "laggy." I am not dealing with that dumb claw or canon.

 

[Nysyarc]

Alright well, the main problems I have with Delfino are water and a couple of walk-offs. Otherwise the stage is fine and those issues don't exist on every transition though at least one of them is present for most transitions.

My argument is that a less experienced player isn't going to learn much about using Ike in general or the ditto if he just gets water spiked repeatedly or loses a stock at 30% from a Bthrow -> DA. The claw and laser canon on Halberd are random and so there's no bias toward either player. A more experienced Ike main may want to go to Delfino because they're much better at exploiting those stage perks. Plus walk-offs and water appear much more frequently on Delfino than the canon and claw do on Halberd.

I'd probably sooner accept Castle Siege as a starter rather than Delfino or PS1, but obviously I still think Halberd offers a more balanced fight for an Ike ditto than the others. Let's face it, at least 90% of all sets are likely to start on BF or SV anyways (maybe FD too since it's dittos). You always have the option to strike Halberd and it's not as if the options remaining after doing that are all bad for you.

 

[theeboredone]

I forgot about CS. I would prefer that over Delfino and PS1 as well. Also, walk offs can happen on any stage dude. Halberd is no exception. If anything, I'd make the case since the start of the match is a ditto, learning to exploit perks on supposed "CP" stages like Delfino can help a person pick up on things if they choose to use that stage for the future.

 

[Nysyarc]

Oh, no I don't mean like a walk-off Dair or Fair, I mean the stage extending right to the blast zone. That only happens on Delfino and CS of the stages mentioned. Like I said, it's not as much of an issue as water or a wall though, but it could still lead to a really early Bthrow -> DA KO or even carrying the player off with Fthrows on some reads.

That's also true, but I think I'll try the rule at first that the loser of a match is locked in to Ike while the winner has to choose a secondary. That way they'll get to CP a stage as Ike against some other character, so they can still get that experience and in a MU that it may be beneficial for as well. Or if you mean that they'll see the better player exploiting it and learn how to it themselves... true but if they win on their CP they may get to see that anyways when they're playing as their secondary.

I think we can do a quick vote between Halberd and Castle Siege, first stage to get 4 votes (arbitrary number based on the amount of people frequenting the thread) is set as a starter or if neither reaches 4 by sometime tomorrow, whichever has more votes.

Vote: Halberd or Castle Siege as a starter stage?

My vote goes to Halberd. Arguments for and against each stage can be found in various posts above including this one.

 

[theeboredone]

CS. Already stated my case.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Castle Siege.

 

[Ussi]

Bthrow > dash attack is anti-fun

Halberd

 

[Nidtendofreak]

CS

10char

 

[Ussi]

I hate the 2nd session so much that i quick draw between the top two platforms

 

[Slaps]

Halberd

 

[Nysyarc]

3 for Halberd, 3 for Castle Siege. Who wants to be the decisive tie-breaker vote? Our whole rule set rests on your shoulders (no pressure)!

 

[Heartstring]

pressure? I laugh in the face of pressure...shortly before using some stupid john relevant to the character i just lost to

of the two, I would prefer Halberd

 

[Nysyarc]

pressure? I laugh in the face of pressure...shortly before using some stupid john relevant to the character i just lost to

of the two, I would prefer Halberd

Lol, well thanks for stepping up in this case. So for at least the first tourney the starters will be:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Halberd

Now another quick vote on CPs (really should have done this all together but forgot before, looks like you all get +1 post count):

Vote #2: Rainbow Cruise and/or Brinstar as legal counter picks?

Your options:

- Neither of them as legal counter picks.
- Only Rainbow Cruise as a legal counter pick.
- Only Brinstar as a legal counter pick.
- Both of them as legal counter picks.

I will abstain from voting in this one as it doesn't much matter to me. We will go with the first option to reach 4 votes, or the option with the most votes by tomorrow afternoon/night. If there is a tie by that time I reserve the right to vote in order to break it.

Keep in mind that this is only for the first tournament to see how it goes, this rule set will not necessarily be set in stone for the whole season.

EDIT: IMPORTANT: Keep in mind that the winner of a match will be using a secondary character for the counter-pick phase and the person counter-picking a stage will always be using Ike by rule. You will not be able to counter-pick Rainbow Cruise as G&W for example.

 

[Heartstring]

I vote for neither legal, But its for purely selfish reasons :B

 

[Nysyarc]

Objective reasoning isn't too important for this, so don't worry about it. RC and Brinstar are somewhat controversial in a lot of rulesets so personal bias is definitely understandable. The only requirement to have your vote count is that you'll be participating in some bi-weeklies this season.

 

[Heartstring]

Well, I should be, Although if work decides that Im working, then im working XD