~ Ike Boards Bi-Weeklies Thread ~ Come in and discuss ideas! ~

[Heartstring]

Sounds good, although i will point out that if this is a bi weekly on sundays, it could well have the same dates as englands biweeklies XD but hey, doesnt bother me that badly

 

[Nysyarc]

What time would those bi-weeklies run to? I'm assuming if it's in person they would start earlier in the afternoon? You could always show up a bit late if you let me know beforehand and play whoever is willing to stick around (depending how late obviously, if you can't make it until like 4-5 hours after the tourney starts you'll probably be out of luck).

 

[Berserker Swordsman]

As for Meta Knight... that's something we can discuss. Obviously we're all Ike mains, we all (should) hate the bat and especially on WiFi. Do we really need to officially state in the rules that he's banned or should it just be a gentleman's clause where if both players agree to it then one of them can choose MK? Or should he just be straight-up legal since Unity is disbanded and stuff?

I say keep him legal and if someone wants to whine about it, get better. Olimar and Snake are much harder to deal with on wifi anyway.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

We could always make the bi-weeklies on alternating weeks to whatever GP's going to.

 

[Nysyarc]

Yah that's obviously a much better idea Jam, I must have thought he said "weeklies" or something.

@G~P, as long as staggering them with your bi-weeklies doesn't prevent a bunch of other people from participating who otherwise would have been able to, I see no reason why we can't do that. It'd mean you'd have a tourney every weekend for some time but obviously I'd understand if you prioritized your local events when you want a weekend off.

@BS, I was thinking just have him legal as well. We'll get some more opinions but at this point, where the ban is no longer a commonly accepted standard... I think just have him legal and deal with it. Honestly how many of us even secondary MK?

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Deep inside, we all have a pocket MK. I actually don't care because it's Wifi MK anyway and it was already mentioned that there are more difficult Wifi characters to deal with online.

 

[sGale]

Well, assuming we stick to the old system, the tournaments would each be held on a Sunday at 3:00 pm EST. Your time that would be 9:00 pm.

Now, we could try moving the time back an hour, starting at 2:00 pm EST. That would be 11:00 am for people on the west coast of NA but that's not actually too bad at all and if we're going to have quite a few people from Europe participating I definitely don't want to cater just to NA.

That could maybe work. We'll see. My internet isn't that good so i might not be able to participate anyway.

 

[Heartstring]

@G~P, as long as staggering them with your bi-weeklies doesn't prevent a bunch of other people from participating who otherwise would have been able to, I see no reason why we can't do that. It'd mean you'd have a tourney every weekend for some time but obviously I'd understand if you prioritized your local events when you want a weekend off.

It honestly doesnt bother me, just make it so its more suitable to the larger group of people! I can always ask someone to give me a hand with things at a different time if im having that much trouble

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm willing to give it a try, but I honestly have no clue as to how my lag will be on the Wii at my new place: I haven't taken it online for any game. Been mainly using it for nostalgic trips through my Gamecube games like Custom Robo. Wish my Rogue Squadron II disk wasn't busted...

 

[Nysyarc]

That could maybe work. We'll see. My internet isn't that good so i might not be able to participate anyway.

Don't worry too much about connection as long as it's not like really choppy (which usually just has to do with bandwidth usage, like somebody else in your house using the wireless network for something... usually YouTube causes big problems). If it's just straight up input lag people can deal with it.

It honestly doesnt bother me, just make it so its more suitable to the larger group of people! I can always ask someone to give me a hand with things at a different time if im having that much trouble

Alright well, just let me know when your local bi-weeklies will be if you can find out, cause so far you're the only one who has something else going on regularly for Sundays.

I'm willing to give it a try, but I honestly have no clue as to how my lag will be on the Wii at my new place: I haven't taken it online for any game. Been mainly using it for nostalgic trips through my Gamecube games like Custom Robo. Wish my Rogue Squadron II disk wasn't busted...

Glad to hear it! Hopefully it won't be too troublesome.

Custom Robo was a cool game, you've made me want to play it again now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Word of advise if you do play Custom Robo again: the "Delete File" in the options deletes all save files. To delete just one, you need to open up that file and dig around in there.

I totally didn't find that out the hard way and lose my 100% save file or anything like that. >_> <_<

EDIT: Speaking of Sundays I have church in the late morning and I don't get back until sometime in the afternoon as we often eat lunch out right afterwards. Early Sundays would not work for me.

 

[Heartstring]

cool, Well the next one is this sunday (6th may) and then we have then every 2 weeks from then untill further notice

 

[Nysyarc]

Well, we'll probably stick to 3:00 pm EST for now because it worked well before. If some European players are finding that it's too late for a Sunday night (work the next day, etc...) we'll have to bump it back an hour and see how that works, which could of course cause problems for some NA players.

It's all about finding a balance that works for the most possible players, and unfortunately it's very possible that some will always be left out.

Edit: @G~P, okay that's perfect, I was planning on having the first new tournament next Sunday (the 13th) anyways to give us some more time to hammer out changes to rules and etc.

 

[theeboredone]

My problem with having MK legal is not much as the debate on whether or not he is allowed in tournaments as the following...

People do not play MK online as they would offline. Look, we all know what MK is notorious for on wifi, and why it's so difficult due to lag. Spam tornado, shuttle loop, and d-smash. If anyone has gone to a tourney, one would know that **** really doesn't work in 2012. Now there is the option of playing MK as genuine as possible, but let's face it...when you're about to lose, what the hell are you gonna try to do?

You can make the case other characters play differently on wifi as well, but the extremity of change is not as evident as it is with MK.

So if I have to deal with someone pulling out an MK and all he/she does is spam tornado, shuttle loop, or d-smash...I don't see the point of getting any "experience" out of it as that would be the purpose.

 

[san.]

My SDTV still doesn't work (need to get my remote from home to see if I can fix it) so count me out until further notice.

 

[Blubolouis]

Seems like a great idea, but I can't play wifi with my connection. You guys have fun !

 

[Nysyarc]

My problem with having MK legal is not much as the debate on whether or not he is allowed in tournaments as the following...

People do not play MK online as they would offline. Look, we all know what MK is notorious for on wifi, and why it's so difficult due to lag. Spam tornado, shuttle loop, and d-smash. If anyone has gone to a tourney, one would know that **** really doesn't work in 2012. Now there is the option of playing MK as genuine as possible, but let's face it...when you're about to lose, what the hell are you gonna try to do?

You can make the case other characters play differently on wifi as well, but the extremity of change is not as evident as it is with MK.

So if I have to deal with someone pulling out an MK and all he/she does is spam tornado, shuttle loop, or d-smash...I don't see the point of getting any "experience" out of it as that would be the purpose.

I can definitely see that point, but I really doubt many of us will be going MK and even spamming Nado, Shuttle Loop and Dsmash on WiFi won't work if you're playing against a smart enough player. I've dealt with MKs on WiFi before and as long as the lag isn't abysmal (which makes any MU unbearable), it's definitely possible to get around the spam.

I'd rather not have him banned outright, so I think I can narrow it down to 2 reasonable options:

1. Try having MK fully legal for a few tourneys and see if it becomes an issue. If it does, implement the gentleman's clause so that if someone wants to use MK they have to clear it with their opponent first and anyone is free to say "no MK for this set".

2. Implement the gentlemen's clause explained above from the start.

My SDTV still doesn't work (need to get my remote from home to see if I can fix it) so count me out until further notice.

Seems like recently you've always got something that doesn't work, or has it always just been that SDTV? Anyways, hope you can get that worked out.

 

[theeboredone]

Lag experience is different to each person. I even hate playing wifi on a blue connection cause I notice the difference. If we're on a yellow, I will get upset if an MK players resorts to cheap tactics. I doubt anyone here will do that, but you never know.

My SDTV still doesn't work (need to get my remote from home to see if I can fix it) so count me out until further notice.

Get on my level. Been using an HDTV in the past bi-weeklies.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

If it's gonna be the 13th, I might not be able to attend the first one. My finals end of the 15th. Meh.

@Niddo: one more thing before we move on to the social about Star Wars Rogue Squadron. That series of games was the best. My favorite Star Wars games I've ever played when I was a kid, especially II.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If it's gonna be the 13th, I might not be able to attend the first one. My finals end of the 15th. Meh.

@Niddo: one more thing before we move on to the social about Star Wars Rogue Squadron. That series of games was the best. My favorite Star Wars games I've ever played when I was a kid, especially II.

Indeed it was. I was saddened when I heard that Factor 5 had been making IV when they closed down.

The only Star Wars game I enjoyed more was Podracer.

 

[Nysyarc]

Shadows of the Empire was pretty legit.

Anyways, we can continue that in the social, let's keep this on topic.

I wanted to be able to make a decision by tomorrow sometime but I think it's safe to say that this has gotten enough support that I'll go through with it. That leaves just a few wrinkles to work out:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Meta Knight. I'm thinking just go with soft-banned and a gentlemen's clause for using him. If you want to use MK, ask your opponent, and if they agree to it, you're good to go. Otherwise, he is banned. Basically the exact same as the rule for playing on banned stages.

2. Stage List. I'm definitely removing Luigi's Mansion, Port Town, Distant Planet, Green Green and Yoshi's Island Melee from CPs. That leaves the following stages for CPs:

Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Pictochat
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

The only other ones I would say are debatable would be Pictochat... and maybe PS2 and Japes although I've never seen too much wrong with those ones as CPs. Starter stages are fine since the first match will always be Ike dittos anyways, no need to balance them for other characters. Although we could cut it down to 5 starters and set 2 of them as CPs. I would say FD and PS1 become CPs (PS1 for long wall transitions that Ike can gay Ike on and FD because it'll be a common ban/CP due to secondaries).

3. Secondary Characters. From what I've gathered, you all seem to be positive about this idea, so I think we will go through with it at least for one season to see how it goes. I think it will make it more enjoyable but you never know, we may miss the 100% Ike dittos.

If anybody has any objections to running the season with secondary character, make it known now.

4. Season 3. I say we scrap what we have for Season 3 right now, roll back the stats so it's like we just finished Season 2 and start fresh. We only ran 3 tournaments in Season 3 and we'll likely have many different players participating, as well as performances being skewed by past results that may not reflect current skill...

Overall, I think it would be way easier to start a new season from scratch and there really is no logical argument to continue the one we started over a year ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And I think that about covers it. If I think of any other issues that need resolutions I'll post them as they come to me. Feel free to give your input on these issues and obviously everybody's opinion will be taken into consideration. I may be the only one running these but it is by no means a dictatorship, you guys are all participating too so I want the rules to be as close as possible to what everyone would like to see.

 

[theeboredone]

We should go with the japanese rule set one time.

 

[Nysyarc]

Could do that too, not opposed to trying new things as long as it's not an issue with a whole bunch of a people. I personally would get pretty bored of such a small stage list if we did it for a whole season, but yah as a one-time test thing and maybe recurring if we like it.

I'd like to allow people to practice on all the stages they could realistically see in an offline tourney though, so with that in mind we wouldn't want to use a super-conservative stage list too often.

 

[sGale]

So how long would these tournaments take? School on monday would not be funny if it dragged on too long.

 

[Ruinn]

while i dont main ike, id participate in these. would help out my pocket ike

 

[theeboredone]

So how long would these tournaments take? School on monday would not be funny if it dragged on too long.

Nah, from experience, these last about 3-4 hours tops assuming things get started on time. It's round robin, so you just go around playing everybody. When you're done, you're done. You can leave early as well, in case you don't have time to finish all your matches. Not like you'll get a forfeit on those you haven't played.

Ranks are decided by a private panel of 4-5 people.

 

[sGale]

Nah, from experience, these last about 3-4 hours tops assuming things get started on time. It's round robin, so you just go around playing everybody. When you're done, you're done. You can leave early as well, in case you don't have time to finish all your matches. Not like you'll get a forfeit on those you haven't played.

Ranks are decided by a private panel of 4-5 people.

That sounds good. I'm such a scrub so my matches won't last that long anyway.

 

[Heartstring]

We should go with the japanese rule set one time.

I agree, The uk already runs something similar to the *** ruleset on our biweeklies, so matches on the more debatable stages would be of little use to me XD

 

[Nysyarc]

Alright well, why don't we at least shrink our stage list down considerably to start and if that's still too much we can try the Japanese rule set next tourney. So how about this list for now:

~ Starters ~

Battlefield
Halberd
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Final Destination
Smashville

~ Counter Picks ~

Castle Seige
Pokemon Stadium 1
Frigate Orpheon
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise

5 Starters and 5 CPs, took out what I believe are the more controversial stages. Switched Halberd to Starter. All first matches will be Ike dittos so I just considered what stages you could have the most fair Ike ditto on, and Delfino/PS1/Siege all have ways that one Ike can take a huge advantage over the other quickly (walk-offs for Bthrow -> DA, walls, water, etc...).

I'm gonna miss Rainbow Cruise but I doubt many stage lists are going to have it alongside MK legal. I'll probably be leaving the Starters as they are, but if anyone has any stages they'd like added to CPs for legit reasons (it is legal for your scene and you need practice) just let me know.

Edit: I just realized I practically made the Apex stage list, lol. Switch Halberd to CPs for Lylat and there you go. Lylat should not be a Starter on WiFi though due to laggg and I'd never have FD as a Starter if it wasn't guaranteed Ike dittos.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No Japanese Ruleset. That thing is just lame and for people who can't do something as basic as watch the stage as well as their opponent.

Put back in RC and Brinstar. Still a fair amount of MK banned tournaments, and thus those two stages.

 

[Nysyarc]

No Japanese Ruleset. That thing is just lame and for people who can't do something as basic as watch the stage as well as their opponent.

I'm of relatively the same opinion. To be honest the stage list I have now is conservative enough that we probably don't need to use the Japanese rule set at all if we just stick with this one + or - a few small changes.

Put back in RC and Brinstar. Still a fair amount of MK banned tournaments, and thus those two stages.

That's fair enough, and I guess even some MK legal tournaments could still have RC and/or Brinstar. I'll just get a few more opinions but if we had a vote I'd personally go with RC and Brinstar to be CPs at least for now.

So opinions:

Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar under Counterpicks? Y/N?

 

[Heartstring]

I like the stage list as you have it currently. The inclusion of cruise and brinstar doesnt bother me in the slightest

 

[sGale]

Do they have to go hand in hand with eachother? Or can you vote for them individually?

 

[Nysyarc]

No reason why they'd have to go hand in hand, if you'd just like to see one and not the other that will be taken into account. I'm more partial to Rainbow Cruise than Brinstar personally.

 

[sGale]

Okay. I've always liked Brinstar more. I don't like any moving stages to be honest.

 

[theeboredone]

Halberd is dumb for a starter stage. Even if we're all Ike, in tournament it's just one extra stage for Snake to dominate or MK to dominate on given it's a popular counter pick. As a starter, people would just ban that, resulting in a more opportunistic strategy for certain mains.

I'm fine with RC, no on Brinstar.

 

[Nysyarc]

Halberd is dumb for a starter stage. Even if we're all Ike, in tournament it's just one extra stage for Snake to dominate or MK to dominate on given it's a popular counter pick. As a starter, people would just ban that, resulting in a more opportunistic strategy for certain mains.

Offline or for a tourney with all characters I definitely wouldn't have FD or Halberd in a 5-starter list (I wouldn't even have FD on 7 or 9). As it is though, Halberd doesn't have as many ways for Ike to gay Ike as the other options for starters do. Aside from that it doesn't matter if it's a CP or a starter because beyond the first match, all of the stages can be considered CPs since you just get 1 ban and there's no more striking.

What I'm getting at is that if someone would use their ban on Halberd, they'd use their ban on Halberd regardless of whether it's a starter or a CP. The only thing that matters for starters for Ike dittos is eliminating as many Ike-specific shenanigans as possible from the first match.

 

[Heartstring]

Halberd is dumb for a starter stage. Even if we're all Ike, in tournament it's just one extra stage for Snake to dominate or MK to dominate on given it's a popular counter pick. As a starter, people would just ban that, resulting in a more opportunistic strategy for certain mains.

I'm fine with RC, no on Brinstar.

wait halberd?
*checks up the page*
oh wow, I automatically made it my standard 5 stage starter list and didnt even think you might have put halberd there

nah, lylat or ps1 in place of that. Seeing as we're primarily ike having lylat as a neutral seems normal, as ps1 will have CG's going on XD

 

[theeboredone]

Offline or for a tourney with all characters I definitely wouldn't have FD or Halberd in a 5-starter list (I wouldn't even have FD on 7 or 9). As it is though, Halberd doesn't have as many ways for Ike to gay Ike as the other options for starters do. Aside from that it doesn't matter if it's a CP or a starter because beyond the first match, all of the stages can be considered CPs since you just get 1 ban and there's no more striking.

What I'm getting at is that if someone would use their ban on Halberd, they'd use their ban on Halberd regardless of whether it's a starter or a CP. The only thing that matters for starters for Ike dittos is eliminating as many Ike-specific shenanigans as possible from the first match.

I'd rather put Lylat in for Halberd for the sole reason the only "interference" is that the ship tilts on Lylat. Plus, you talk about how people would use their ban on Halberd regardless if it was a CP or starter is extremely flawed. Let's say if I'm a MK pain. My two stages to ban you on would be YI and BF. You don't want me to go to FD or Halberd. SV is a disadvantage for Ike vs MK, because the stage itself is shorter, giving MK far more time to pressure. It's also another easy stage for MK to gimp Ike on.

Let's say if it's only a CP and not a starter. If I'm an MK main, I have to now consider banning BF and Lylat due to the platforms that give Ike an advantage. An Ike main would ban FD and SV, giving him YI as the stage. YI having a elongated platform + possible chance of Randal saving you if you fall off too far. + a wall on the edge that is noticeably easier to tech compared to the wall on SV It gives me that slimmer chance of winning

 

[Nysyarc]

I've already outlined my reasoning for Lylat and PS1:

When you pick Lylat you're basically counterpicking lag to see if it turns up in your favor. The stage is way laggier than other stages so it's not a good starter in that the match is more likely to have a weird upset. Obviously this only applies to WiFi, offline it's a fine starter.

PS1 has walls, and I'd rather avoid people doing stuff like that in the ditto matches. Since the second and third match of each set require one of the two players to use their secondary, the only ditto match in each set will be the first one. I want them to be as straight-up as possible for the benefit of less experienced players so they don't have to sit there watching their opponent wall infinite them, spike them repeatedly into the water or Bthrow -> DA them into a walk-off.

There's nothing wrong with Halberd in the ditto: no walk-offs, no water, no walls, a nice stage layout that you can't Aether plank very safely on (at least not as well as like BF, SV or PS1) and only one hazard that's very telegraphed and easy to avoid.

Edit: @Bored, you're confusing bans with strikes. The first match of each set is always an Ike ditto, so there's no character MUs to consider. After that, you don't strike stages for the CPs, the winner just bans 1 stage from either starters or CPs and then the loser picks one stage from starters or CPs.