D
Deleted member
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well, you hit him off.....and when he comes back, you hit him again.
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Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness
- Thread starter YagamiLight
- Start date
NinjaLink
Smash Master
reverse aether ***** ness. but ness can spike ike outta aether. Most can.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Who can't spike Ike out of aether? Ike needs more range/priority when he's spinning.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Lol sure.
Okay, Ness vs Ike matchup is pretty straight forward.
Okay, on the ground Ike wins, but not by much. Ike's aerials are surprisingly good with some nice range to it, but Ness aerials still are better by a long shot. Gimping Ness with Ike is pretty much non-existant, lest you want a PKT2 to the face, and gimping Ike is pretty easy with the right Dair while aethering.
A thing to note is that grab release jab is avoidable on the first shot, (the other 2 connect though) and really now, you expect one grab release to sway a matchup? Lol.
Ike's usually approach Ness' in this matchup, I find it easier to play defense for once.
I see it in Ness favor 55-45.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Actually, it's dead easy to do. As long as Ness actually has to go a good distance with PKT2 and can't just jump back on.
Dtilt? Perfectly usable.
Counter? Even easier then using it on Lucas's.
SHDair off the stage? Do able.
Fsmash? If he's using it from above the stage for what ever reason, and is aiming above the stage, this is a go.
Eruption? Eats PKT2 alive.
It's VERY easy to gimp Ness as Ike. PKT2 simply gives Ike too much time to set up what ever way he wishes to stop Ness from getting back.
Ike has two grab releases on Ness. The ground one is jab, the air release is dash attack. I believe we can also Bthrow->Dash attack for a true combo on Ness, plus sending him off stage at around 50%.
And Ness does not have a large advantage over Ike in the air. A small advantage? Sure, but not a large one. Ike has too much range, and Ness is too lacking in range outside of Fair.
metroid1117
Smash Master
Ness certainly has a good air game, but being able to FAir through every attack negates it's usefulness somewhat. Airdodging through the FAir helps, but Ness' aerial maneuverability isn't good enough to make it reliable every time like Wario's or Jigglypuff's. Ness' double jump helps in following up with attacks, but not being able to cancel it makes it somewhat inflexible when you want to chase your opponent in a certain direction. Both characters have a good out of shield option (NAir for Ness and BAir for Ike), a long-range attack (FAirs, but Ike's is longer while Ness' is faster), killing moves (BAirs and UAirs, but Ike's BAir is much faster and longer-ranged while Ness' is more powerful; Ike's UAir is much more powerful and stays out longer, but Ness' is faster), and "combo" starters (Ness' FAir and Ike's NAir, but Ness' FAir is better in this aspect); I'd say their air games are roughly even when comparing the match-up, not the characters in general (in which case I think it's slightly in Ness' favor).
Gimping Ness is VERY easy for Ike. You can get Countered if you're far away, reverse Aether'd if you're too close to be Countered, BAir'd if you're too close for reverse Aether (1:40), or even spiked if you're even closer than that. If you REALLY want to, you can purposely get hit, shorten his PKT2, and tech against the stage to survive (see 0:30).
If the Ness auto-sweetspots, you'll be hard-pressed to get off a DTilt; they're not that reliable when trying to intercept Ness.Nidtendofreak said:
Kimchi
Smash Ace
I'd have to say Ness's aerial set is pretty even with Ike's. Ike has more range, but Ness has more "combo" starters such as Fair. Ike completely destroys Ness on the ground though and yes, gimping Ness does not require much effort. I'm going to have to say the match up is 55:45 Ike's favor.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ah, Dtilt was more for if he's going nearly perfectly horizontal. It can hit him before he grabs the ledge I believe. I said perfectly usable, perhaps a bad choice of wording. Very much possible, especially compared to people like Marth, would be better.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
You are fine actually...
Too bad Ness' recovery is overall a lot more open for how you can use it overall...fun fact...the distance on it doesn't suck overall...
Unless you hit the ledge right with Ness' recovery...
How so? You can change the fire off time of PKT2 pretty easily actually...
I like how you think Ness can't stall in the air...
Oh wait...you changed your view on this ^_^
Fun thing about aiming it...you can fire it anywhere...oh and in case you forget...the start of the move has special frames to it...
Nah...
PKT2's start up time is a little bit more than Fire Fox and Fire Bird for the quickest use of it...so yeah it has start up time...but at least Ness' recovery isn't the same beaten path each time pretty much...really god it is way to easy to pillar spike/set up proper use of Flash and Thunder mind games...
To bad all of Ness' airs chain together naturally...and overall Ness beats Ike in the speed and mobility areas...
Right...he just has an above average 1st and 2nd jump...that overall effects his hit boxes for his air games...
And his mobility is a bit better than Mario's actually IIRC and retreating Fairs from Ike will be punished if you don't respect the thunder...
When I'm on someone...a good % of the time it ends with PK Thunder actually...when they want to run from my wrath...it works well ^_^
Ness' yoyo's are good for mind games as well...
Ness' Fair is actually bigger than his hurt box and that really shows with a retreat...try it
Ike's Bair comes out on frame 8...Ness' comes out on frame 10...that isn't much faster...and Ness' growing body seems to enjoy lying about the hit boxes...just saying...
All of Ness' air moves are "combo" starters as well...
Oh and Ness' dair is sexy as hell ^_^
God...the person was just screwing around in that it seems...
Still overall...it is pretty easy to gimp with Ness as well...
Overall I see this match as even...55:45 Ness though if you care about numbers
On another note...I need to work on my jab cancel game with both Ness and Ike >_>
metroid1117
Smash Master
According to Kirk, Ike's BAir comes out on frame 7 (source). Even so, that's not much different from 10; I should've looked up actual frame data rather than relying on visual estimations.
That thing is deceptively powerful >.>. I prefer Ike's superior range, but I guess it's personal preference.
Yeah... my brother doesn't play competitively.
PK Fire -> DAir spike is very annoying
.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
lmao at it being hard to gimp ness, just get hit, its exactly like Ike's QD. You can't do at higher percents unless you have a stock lead but if your under the stage any percent is viable as long as you can DI and tech.
Really awesome when you miss a counter get sent across the stage and he still dies.
Really awesome when you miss a counter get sent across the stage and he still dies.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Let's not fool ourselves here. Ike gets gimped just as hard as Ness does, if not harder. "well, you hit him off.....and when he comes back, you hit him again." It is stupid to look at it from one end. Period.
Ike is susceptible to dairs, just like from pretty much everyone in the game. Ness player doesn't want to dair? He can use *any* B attack to gimp. PK Fire -> aerial (and don't say you'll DI out in time, because you're DIing towards the stage, which is in the direction of PK Fire). PK Thunder if Ike's too far for PK Fire and too close for PK Flash, if he's under the stage for a potential stagespike, or just to give him extra damage with a projectile that is pretty easy to hit Ike with. PK Flash with fairly simple timing.
If Ness doesn't have to use PK Thunder to recover, then Ike is gonna have to "gimp" Ness the old fashion way, which is always harder than when you can control your opponent with various options, the projectile edgeguards being safe for Ness. Even if Ike is up and high, he still has to contend with PK Thunder, and Ness probably will not end up taking any damage even if Ike does make it back on the stage.
I take back what I said earlier. Both don't gimp each other equally. Both have an easy time with the other, but ONLY when it comes to having to use something besides a jump to get back to the stage. I still say Ness does a better job edgeguarding Ike than the other way around, mainly because Ike can be ****ed with even if he doesn't have to use a B move to come back to the stage. I also think I'm gonna go down to 50:50.
Ike is susceptible to dairs, just like from pretty much everyone in the game. Ness player doesn't want to dair? He can use *any* B attack to gimp. PK Fire -> aerial (and don't say you'll DI out in time, because you're DIing towards the stage, which is in the direction of PK Fire). PK Thunder if Ike's too far for PK Fire and too close for PK Flash, if he's under the stage for a potential stagespike, or just to give him extra damage with a projectile that is pretty easy to hit Ike with. PK Flash with fairly simple timing.
If Ness doesn't have to use PK Thunder to recover, then Ike is gonna have to "gimp" Ness the old fashion way, which is always harder than when you can control your opponent with various options, the projectile edgeguards being safe for Ness. Even if Ike is up and high, he still has to contend with PK Thunder, and Ness probably will not end up taking any damage even if Ike does make it back on the stage.
I take back what I said earlier. Both don't gimp each other equally. Both have an easy time with the other, but ONLY when it comes to having to use something besides a jump to get back to the stage. I still say Ness does a better job edgeguarding Ike than the other way around, mainly because Ike can be ****ed with even if he doesn't have to use a B move to come back to the stage. I also think I'm gonna go down to 50:50.
I'm going to go ahead with at Ralphael said. He's a pretty knowledgable guy. You guys have your reversed Aether, but Ness can also stage spike his opponents without actually having to go out there. A simple PK Thunder tailwhip to the PKT itself can actually gimp. To go into detail, it can zap first and then hit them with the PKT itself thus making Ness' opponent bounce off the stage. PKT tail does actually cancel second jumps, too. Anyway, again with this whole debate on who can gimp who. Let's not all forget that it's not gimping the opponent that makes the ratio. If that were the case, Link and Olimar would be at the very bottom.
Ussi
Smash Legend
relying on stage spikes isn't effective. There is such a thing called teching.
However, PK fire > dair is sexy. Ike can AD though since PK fire doesn't have that much range... if you're doing it from the stage..
However, PK fire > dair is sexy. Ike can AD though since PK fire doesn't have that much range... if you're doing it from the stage..
_clinton
Smash Master
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Actually all of Ness' airs can lead into a Dair as well...but yeah...PK Fire is the easy one to set up...
Yoyo spike is pretty sexy though IMO if you pull it off ^_^
BTW...I like that Ike + Pikachu pic ^_^
Ussi
Smash Legend
I've been fair > dair at low %... on stage... on wifi..
I don't run into competitive Ness players here.. so I really can't say much about this match.
All I've seen so far from this discussion is:
Ness has **** aerials
Ness gets ***** on the ground
Ike has greater range than Ness's aerials
They both gimp each other
So yea, enough of that, how about what does Ness do to force approaches and how does he approach? And what does Ness do to pressure Ike when he's on the offensive?
Ike's main plan of approaching is basically avoid projectile and fair/nair/jab/AD into a jab that's about it lol.
And when my friend showed me the Ike + Pikachu picture, it instantly became my avatar ;D
I don't run into competitive Ness players here.. so I really can't say much about this match.
All I've seen so far from this discussion is:
Ness has **** aerials
Ness gets ***** on the ground
Ike has greater range than Ness's aerials
They both gimp each other
So yea, enough of that, how about what does Ness do to force approaches and how does he approach? And what does Ness do to pressure Ike when he's on the offensive?
Ike's main plan of approaching is basically avoid projectile and fair/nair/jab/AD into a jab that's about it lol.
And when my friend showed me the Ike + Pikachu picture, it instantly became my avatar ;D
GotenOnNimbus
Smash Apprentice
His safest bet in a lot of cases is retreating Fair. PK Fire's not a very reliable approach method a lot of the time, PK Jump's only used once in awhile. If Ike's far away, it's Thunder game time. PKT and PKT2 are VERY underrated here...as _clinton said, respect the thunder. It's a very versatile move and shouldn't be readily ignored just because it's also a recovery move. A good Ness can use PKT2 in any direction he feels like.
Personally, I DA using the very tip of the hitbox as to not get grabbed easily, otherwise Fair and Nair in and out to get them to approach. If they approach, go in for the shield grab, Dthrow and rising Fair or Nair, giving chase with DA and Fair. If I miss a Nair or Fair, sometimes I'll jump right past and plant a Bair in the back of their skull.
Offensive Ike, if he's mainly attacking from the ground with jabs and tilts, SH Dair works wonders to punish him. SHing Ike's a bit more annoying, especially if he's got good timing with his attacks. If I catch him at a moment of lag, Ftilt or jabs. Stalling the yoyo is also fun, I've found it clanks against a lot of things.
Ussi
Smash Legend
off topic:
I was using Ness in a friendly against a Lucas. Watching Ness tip his ftilt against Lucas for the kill (140%) looked sexy.
On topic:
IIRC Ness doesn't have an outstanding shieldgrab range. So a spaced Nair would not get shield grabbed. Ike's fully spaced fair can't be dash grabbed thanks to its IASA frames making Ness eat a jab before being able to land a dash grab. Of course Ike has to be SPACING with his sword. Feel free to shield grab non spaced attacks or Ike's jab. However, be careful since Ike's tend to 1st jab repeatedly via jab cancels and you might get hit before your grab attempt if don't time it right.
Rest is mind games depending on both payers. Goes either way.
anything else is just bait and punish and dependent on the players.
I was using Ness in a friendly against a Lucas. Watching Ness tip his ftilt against Lucas for the kill (140%) looked sexy.
On topic:
Wel, retreating fairs are a ***** to deal with. Ike outranges it but Ike ends up extending his hurtbox into it before he hits Ness.
Does Ness's DA shield stab effectively? Cause It most likely won't outrange Ike's full jab combo.
IIRC Ness doesn't have an outstanding shieldgrab range. So a spaced Nair would not get shield grabbed. Ike's fully spaced fair can't be dash grabbed thanks to its IASA frames making Ness eat a jab before being able to land a dash grab. Of course Ike has to be SPACING with his sword. Feel free to shield grab non spaced attacks or Ike's jab. However, be careful since Ike's tend to 1st jab repeatedly via jab cancels and you might get hit before your grab attempt if don't time it right.
Rest is mind games depending on both payers. Goes either way.
Do be careful, Ike has a strong anti-aerial game with utilt (lingering hitbox), usmash (slow but lots of range), and aether.
anything else is just bait and punish and dependent on the players.
Ussi
Smash Legend
I'm flattered.
D
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Guest
Percon
Smash Lord
I was just reading this randomly. It's a good read.
Though, maybe it would be best to include some other counterpicks than Corneria/Luigi's Mansion/Pirate Ship for some of them since I know they're not legal anywhere.
Though, maybe it would be best to include some other counterpicks than Corneria/Luigi's Mansion/Pirate Ship for some of them since I know they're not legal anywhere.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
All three of those stages are still legal in various areas (for example, all three of those are legal in TX). It's not our fault if Ike's best stage (Pirate Ship), is banned by stricter areas randomly.
Percon
Smash Lord
It was just a suggestion for those that are less fortunate and don't get to pick all of those stages.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you can still adapt to it rather than looking confused when you have no good counterpicks.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Air release dash doesn't work IIRC.
Ness don't Fsmash silly.
DTilt is useable on Ness? Since when?
A good Lucas will never get gimped by Ike. ever recovering is one of the few things Lucas does right.
Let's see how Ness can gimp Ike.
Dair in general- doable
Dair on aether - doable
fair on jump- doable
PKT Ike- doable
PKT2 suicide Ike predictable recovery -doable
PKF Ike while he recovers-doable
Hell, the forward throw alone puts Ike in the red zone when recovering.
Also, I hate how this topic's turned about gimping. Lame. Only the Mario mains can pull that **** off.
Ussi
Smash Legend
PKT fails at gimping. All it does is brings me to the stage. Thanks. Don't even say stage spiking. I'll tech. Tail whipping... sends up too i believe.
All of those things are doable. But heck, Ike can do his things to Ness too.
But both character's gimp attempts are all avoidable, just each method requires a different thing to do. So its another bait and punish thing.
All of those things are doable. But heck, Ike can do his things to Ness too.
But both character's gimp attempts are all avoidable, just each method requires a different thing to do. So its another bait and punish thing.
_clinton
Smash Master
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Tail whipping doesn't send you up...
The point of PK Thunder though most of the time is to annoy...it is pretty much just free damage unless you are recovering low...then it comes in handy as well for gimping somewhat...or making someone screw up
We were talking about approach methods now right?
Ness has a lot of them...but the main question is how effective are they at approaching?
Fair for one thing is pretty safe on shields (retreating or the simple fact that it will hit through it somewhat), Ness' 2nd jump pretty much makes him safe to a point as well with most of his air moves...
Dair is made to punish anyone who is too defensive overall...along with the yoyo...
Ness' dash attack has pretty good range overall...and an ok start up time...
PK Fire...Ness has a lot of tricks with it...pivot ground PK Fire for example...he can two 2 of them in the air overall as well...and land with an air attack in your face...
On a different note...Ness is also pretty good at picking away at a shields strength overall as well...PKT2 for one thing rips away a very large amount of the shield's overall strength...
Sukai
Smash Champion
I think people are forgetting that a match up guide goes under the assumption that both characters are experienced players, so general gimping jargon isn't too credible, but the effectiveness is.
Ike is a big gimp target, true, but so is Ness in this context.
PK Thunder, leaves him super vulnerable to a nice forward air in the face, or a counter which would work almost all the time, as the timing and placing of it is easy, because you have like forever to set yourself up. Ike is not the guy you want to get close to, but Ness is going to have to at some point.
All the well space forward airs and PK Fires in the world isn't going to kill Ike. Ike can also space better than Ness can overall, true forward air is fast enough to get in Ike's face, but Ike has more spacing moves, making it hard for Ness to make due.
Thank goodness for his PK Fire, which leads to many safe approaches, just do it fast before Ike can do counter.
A good Ike is hard to gimp, much harder than it is to gimp a good Ness, who has few recovery options and not much to defend himself.
Ness needs to PK fire alot and make excellent use of his double jump for recovery reasons.
Ike just needs to space and stay on stage.
It's pretty even in my opinion.
5:5
Ike is a big gimp target, true, but so is Ness in this context.
PK Thunder, leaves him super vulnerable to a nice forward air in the face, or a counter which would work almost all the time, as the timing and placing of it is easy, because you have like forever to set yourself up. Ike is not the guy you want to get close to, but Ness is going to have to at some point.
All the well space forward airs and PK Fires in the world isn't going to kill Ike. Ike can also space better than Ness can overall, true forward air is fast enough to get in Ike's face, but Ike has more spacing moves, making it hard for Ness to make due.
Thank goodness for his PK Fire, which leads to many safe approaches, just do it fast before Ike can do counter.
A good Ike is hard to gimp, much harder than it is to gimp a good Ness, who has few recovery options and not much to defend himself.
Ness needs to PK fire alot and make excellent use of his double jump for recovery reasons.
Ike just needs to space and stay on stage.
It's pretty even in my opinion.
5:5
xoxokev
Smash Lord
IMO advantage goes to Ike and his big sword... It's hard for me to approach an Ike. Ness' fair is great and all, but Ike's fair is even greater. One fair from Ike is basically the equivalent of 3 Ness fairs... And whenever I think I can punish, Ike has his awesome jab combo. The best way for Ness to go about this match up is to fthrow Ike off stage and try to mess up his recovery with PKT tailwhips or nair. I say the advantage goes to Ike, but truthfully the matches I play are very close. I just feel like Ike has an easier time with the match up because of good spacing and it's easy for him to kill with his strong attacks and all, while it takes Ness a while to build up enough damage to kill... If you guys are talking about gimping, I believe Ness has an easier time gimping Ike... PKT tail is too good... If it hits an offstage quick draw, Ike is basically dead...
Ussi
Smash Legend
Ike isn't Ganon, his fair only does 13%.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
Oh nvm then, it seems like it would do a lot of damage... All I know is Ike only has to hit Ness like 4-5 times to get him within killing range... maybe
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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- 3,679
I miss Ref.
We need moar Backup.
We need moar Backup.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Fortunately, the Ness players with that attitude have not shown up in this thread. Any competent Ness would know what kind of threat Ike can be.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Most ignorant players don't venture past their own boards lol
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I'm just worry about the Samus boards. They have restarted their match-up topic yet again, and the guy in charge thinks that Ike is Samus's easiest match-up. >_> As in, assuming I read it right, easier then Captain Falcon or Ganondorf. Said thing is that he's one of the best Samus's out there. Xyro, or whatever his name is....
Anyhow: Stages for against Ness. It is kinda funny, a lot of stages Ike would be good at, Ness would be good at. Both love PS, Delfino, Green Greens, Corneria......I'm honestly considering Mario Circuit as the best CP of all things. O_o
No worrying about gimping on either end, but Ike has an easier time flat out KOing Ness then Ness does flat out KOing Ike. Except for that Bthrow....only thing that is making me think otherwise....
Is Ness any good at Norfair? Ike's not bad there, and has an easier time recovery thanks to multiple platforms.