Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Arturito_Burrito]

Does a fully charged Fsmash do 30%? If it does, then it will knock Kirby out of Stone, but not do any damage. If it does less than 30%, it won't do anything, and Kirby will transform out and hit you XD

I just thought of an epic mindgame. If I DO miss the Stone like that, and Ike was charging Fsmash, I'd say "oh crap" or something and then start mashing the A button, making lotsa noise with my controller. Hitting the A button wouldn't do anything since you need to use the Special (B, and Y for me since I changed Special to Y) button to get out. And Ike would think "he's getting out!" and release his Fsmash but I didn't REALLY get out :D

...yeah.

Anyway, Halberd is a terrible stage to pick against Ike. He WILL kill you early with Uptilt or something, or he WILL spike you through the stage if you try to attack from below.

thats a very poor mindgame that has very little chance of working and kirby doesn't really need to take damage since that doesn't factor into the knock back that he is going to receive plus it will kill him at like 25% like ussi said, thats one Nair > jab combo.

 

[fromundaman]

♪ Hmm, two good Kirby mainers I know are here, (Asdioh and Viper JLT4GOV). I guess more will come. †



♪ Pokemon Stadum is depends on the tranfomation, Viper knows all about that stage, (because I went though hell Brawling him on it), like is Normal is... neutral when fighting, Fire is for Ike, Water Kirby can use it a lot better, Rock Kirby again, and Grass is neutral. I'll agree when facing Kirby I don't think Pokemon Stadum 1 is a huge boost but when Brawling Viper JLT4GOV it's like 100:0 Kirby's favor. >.< †

♪ Yoshi's Island and Final Destination is agruable since I think Ike as the advantage on Yoshi's Island but I'll agree on FD being in Kirby's favor. †

Awww... I get no love... Then again nobody knows me, so meh.

bold size 3 times new roman darkorchid and plum? god **** how do you remember all that... and then those crosses and music things 0.0

I just noticed your from texas though did you just move here or add your location? It feels odd not knowing that there was another texas Ike out there.

FD and PS1 just seem neutral to me. What is kirby going to do in the rock form use his own rock? If Ike just stop dodges hello free Fsmash and all he can do is break out early because a fully charged one is going to break through the rock.

And I don't see what gives kirby an advantage in FD, usually the people who do get it there are the ones that can camp well and keep people at bay but kirby doesn't fit into that.

FD does seem neutral to me, but I have to say Kirby has too many exploitable tricks on PS1 for it to be neutral.

For one, the Fire stage is one of the few places we can camp effectively, especially if we are under the tree on the right. Sure, it might not hit, but it can't really be punished since the shockwave from FC goes through the tree.
Also, we can Dtilt/grab release lock under the tree. We can probably grab release lock on the other side of the tree as well. Jabs are another good option on both sides, though you can SDI out.

On the Rock part: The bottom of the middle of the stage allows us a jab lock that you CANNOT escape, regardless of DI. The left part of the stage allows you very little room to maneuver, whereas we can go offstage to maneuver if necessary. This is also, IMO, the easiest place in the whole game to get aerial hammer hits, since the only thing you can really do down there is shield or Spotdodge, both of which get punished by that second hammer swing (well, the shield just gets hurt very badly and/or possibly broken).

Water part: We have suicide throws here, Uthrow stage spikes, and/or can generally just combo off the windmill, though you can do that last one too. Also, rock is easy to land off of that windmill since for some reason people don't seem to expect it to hurt them when it slides on/off the windmill.

Grass part: We can shark the platforms, though you probably can too. We also have a repeating stone glitch on the tree thingy.

In general: We can screw you over/gimp you fairly effectively by using the weird lip on this stage. One way is to position ourselves to Bair you into it as you reach your sword during Aether (that's when the SA's stop, right?). Starshotting under this stage is easy and devastating as well.

 

[Ussi]

About your locks, be careful otherwise Ike will wall infinite you with bthrow > fthrow (repeat)

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I guess I did have errors on my stage list. XD ☆

☆ Halberd is good when it come's to the stage being in the air, but the ground area, Ike has the advantage because it's not easy to get Ike outside of the stage. And Yoshi's Island it's not easy to KO Ike because the death zones on the side of the stage as well as the bottom is very close, so Ike could just Side-B over to recover, or second jump>Up-B even if he's close to the death zone below. Final Destnation should be a little of Kirby's hands, (not too much), because Kirby has a little above neutral air game on this stage, and Ike's not a camper, so yea. ^_^; ☆

 

[Deleted member]

fthrow isn't an infinite, and anyone with any concept of DI shouldn't be taking more than 30% anyway.

I'll post stuff from my many matches with chu.

kirby can do only shieldgrabs and bairs and kick your ***. end of story. kirby's shieldgrab out of a dash has ridiculous range and his fthrow upair uptilt bair bair combo is gay and does like 50% ish. kirby can also air dodge through ike into uptilt laglessly (lots of chars can do this but kiry's is better) while ike has no attacks that will catch him on his few frames of landing lag unless kirby mistimes dodging a nair horribly. kirby can then use almost only bairs and have very little risk to himself since they don't carry a huge hurtbox like say DK's bair.

best things to do in this match-

grab. spam it.

dash attack.

challenge air to air with bairs. don't spam fair, it makes you shieldgrab bait which you DO NOT WANT.

dair spikes. kirby's recovery is fairly predictable despite having 5 jumps and hammer before the up B. dair spikes also feel great.

things not to do

ftilt/fair/nair- all venerable top shieldgrabs where you would be safe vs other characters.

side b- lol

when kirby does suction you CAN button mash out at 100% in under 1 second. do not have mercy on your controller cause if you don't mash as fast as possible you WILL die.

eruption kills kirby at gay damages.

ban halberd.

grab

grab a lot
spam
grabs

be wary about doing things other than grabs

actually just keep grabbing

if you miss a grab or he sidesteps, grab again. if you sidestep back, sidestep twice.

then grab

 

[Kishin]

This question isn't about the match-up but... Why is Zelda the only one without a picture?

 

[Asdioh]

Umbreon, your post was confusing. I'm assuming everything under "side b- lol" is no longer affiliated with "what NOT to do"

If I were Ike, I wouldn't ban halberd...I'd ban like, rainbow cruise, or something. Ike's really good on Halberd, and I disagree with what viper said here:

Halberd is good when it come's to the stage being in the air, but the ground area, Ike has the advantage because it's not easy to get Ike outside of the stage.

I think Ike has the advantage on Halberd at ALL times. He can EASILY dtilt spike you if you try to "shark" through the stage during the flying part. The platform benefits him more than Kirby, and so does the low ceiling.

kirby's shieldgrab out of a dash has ridiculous range and his fthrow upair uptilt bair bair combo is gay and does like 50% ish

The shieldgrab isn't hard to see coming, and Ninjalink said somewhere not long ago that EVERY character can SDI out of Kirby's combos after the fthrow->uair. Ike can get out of it, you just need to learn how. Dthrow should be more devastating to Ike than this combo.

If Kirby's being obvious with his attacks, Counter. Kirby is usually a pretty aggressive character. Ok, maybe he's "defensive" for some people, but once he starts hitting you, he'll do what he can to combo you. Use Counter when you see it coming.

 

[Ussi]

counter doesn't really apply to match ups. Counter is one of those tactics that are player skill determined

Stage bans come from preference. I for one would take the RC challenge ;o (Since RC is one of my favorite CPs lol)

 

[YagamiLight]

This is a list of characters remaining to be done:

Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Mario
Ness
Samus

I'll just go best to worst I suppose. CF, DK, Ness, Samus, Mario.

 

[XZA143]

I'd have to agree with Ussi. Using counter works if your smart and don't overuse it, otherwise you'll leave yourself vulnerable for Kirby baiting you to use it and punish you after.

As its been said, Kirby's grab leads to good things for him. If the Kirby decides to be obvious and only go for the grab and nothing else at low percents, Ike's life just got that much easier.

 

[Deleted member]

kirby's best stage vs ike is halberd. ike has no way to get in if kirby camps under the long middle platform with bair and crouch. crouch is even worse cause of the small dip that makes ike have to hit low. all of ike's attack that can hit low, no exception, are either slow as **** or start high or both and are incredibly easy to react to and kirby can bair you and you can't follow anything up with jabs they will just go over his head.

DO NOT go to halberd the match is unplayable. it just isn't.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, because it was brought up a few pages back, I'll throw out what I think the match-up ratios are so far:

MK: 35-65
Snake: 45-55
D3: 3-7
Marth: 4-6
Zelda: 55-45
Wario: 5-5
Pikachu: 4-6
Falco: 3-7
Olimar: 3-7
ZSS: 4-6
Link: 5-5
Pit: 4-6
Mr.G&W: 45-55
ROB: 45-55
Peach: 55-45
Wolf: 4-6
Lucario: 35-65
Toon Link: 4-6
Luigi: 6-4
Lucas: 55-45
Yoshi: 5-5
Ganondorf: 65-35
Jigglypuff: 6-4
Fox: 55-45
PT: 6-4
-Squirtle: 7-3
-Charizard: 45-55
-Ivysaur: 55-45
Diddy: 5-5
ICs: 6-4
Sonic: 5-5
Bowser: 6-4
Sheik: 4-6
Kirby: 45-55

Average Match-Up Ratio (Counting PT as one character): 47-53, assuming I did my math correctly. And quite frankly, thats not bad at all. And we haven't got to add in Captain Falcon yet. XD

EDIT: Goofed up on two match-up ratios, overall average should be the same though.

 

[Kimchi]

Just wondering about some things, I know DDD is one of Ike's hardest matchups, but I never understood why. Can someone explain why the matchup is so hard for Ike? As for Luigi, I don't understand the matchup ratio. Shouldn't it be in Luigi's favor? I mean Luigi' can kill fairly early and he can break out of jab cancels.

 

[YagamiLight]

Just wondering about some things, I know DDD is one of Ike's hardest matchups, but I never understood why. Can someone explain why the matchup is so hard for Ike? As for Luigi, I don't understand the matchup ratio. Shouldn't it be in Luigi's favor? I mean Luigi' can kill fairly early and he can break out of jab cancels.

The thing about the Dedede match-up is that he has a very simple method of getting Ike off the stage (CG to Fthrow) and from there all it takes is one Bair and Ike's stock is gone. It sounds bad but if you space well you won't be getting grabbed much and if you recover intelligently you won't instantly lose your stock to the CG. I think the match-up is made better by the fact that Ike now has an easy method of getting King Dedede off the stage too (Ike edgeguards King Dedede pretty well) in his Bthrow to Dash Attack combo.

Luigi has massive problems with range due to his low mobility. He also has priority issues. It should be self explanatory .

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've played good D3s.

It was a flipping nightmare. ;_; I had more fun against Hylian's ICs then those D3s I played.....and Hylian played around by flying underneath BF with Squall Hammer during the match, and I didn't got a stock off him until I was at like, 90% on my last life. And that was because he was trying to be fancy again and I got a spike on him.

He has projectiles that get in your way, nearly as much range and power, a better recovery, a CG, and who knows how many ways to gimp Ike's recovery.

Luigi has a crappy projectile that does basically nothing, slow movement, can't punish Ike OoS due to sliding, bad range particularly on his good KOing moves, and a very easy to spike recovery method.

 

[metroid1117]

Just wondering about some things, I know DDD is one of Ike's hardest matchups, but I never understood why. Can someone explain why the matchup is so hard for Ike? As for Luigi, I don't understand the matchup ratio. Shouldn't it be in Luigi's favor? I mean Luigi' can kill fairly early and he can break out of jab cancels.

In addition to what Yagami said, D3 also has a projectile that can really hamper your approach. His grab range is also among the best in the game for non-grappling grabs, so even if you space well you can still be grabbed. D3-cides are also something to watch out for, but it shouldn't affect the match-up too much. Against any competent D3, you will lose if you don't play intelliently.

 

[Kimchi]

Ah, ok. And can we rediscuss Sonic and ZSS after Kirby? Both matchups have been giving me a lot of trouble, despite some of the tips I followed in the ZSS writeup.

 

[fromundaman]

Heh, I'd probably bring Ike to RC myself, but by all means, feel free to ban Halberd.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We need to finish the last few match-ups, and re-do the people with throwable items/MK before we do those ones kimchi.

And to think, I had a chance to play a kirby at RC, but I choose C.Falcon instead of Ike at my last tournament for that match....

I honestly think Halberd would be perfectly fine. I'd be much more scared of Kirby at RC or Norfair.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

boosting tossing doesn't change match ups much niddo. Most people with items have projectiles as well and they can stop you dead in your tracks because boosting tossing is pretty telegraphed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's about as telegraphed as Snake's DACUS, which isn't very telegraphed at all. Sure, if you take a long running start it is, but if you do it the instant you dash forwards it isn't. It forces the opponent to both think about how they use their items, and to react to Ike's sudden burst of speed, particularly if you threw the item at them, in which case they need to do something about that as well. Now when they throw items, they are potentially giving Ike a quick method of approach. I've pulled this off in several matches, and it works quite well.

It does change things.

 

[metroid1117]

It's about as telegraphed as Snake's DACUS, which isn't very telegraphed at all. Sure, if you take a long running start it is, but if you do it the instant you dash forwards it isn't. It forces the opponent to both think about how they use their items, and to react to Ike's sudden burst of speed, particularly if you threw the item at them, in which case they need to do something about that as well. Now when they throw items, they are potentially giving Ike a quick method of approach. I've pulled this off in several matches, and it works quite well.

It does change things.

The only match-up it would have a drastic effect on is probably against Diddy, since it's so easy to pick up his bananas. While it would have a slight impact on some match-ups (vs Peach and ZSS), most character's projectiles that you can throw will explode on both you and your opponent (TL and Link's bombs, Snake's grenades) and thus minimize the technique's usefulness, since you'll have a harder time following up.

Also, boost-tossing is telegraphed much more than Snake's DACUS; Snake can do it any time he wants and still utilize all of his ground moves, but Ike must have an item in his hand for him to do it. Also, by having an item in his hand, Ike is forced to rely on B attacks if he is on the ground and maybe in the air (can you use aerials while holding an item? I'm actually not sure); it limits your ground options down to either fighting with only B attacks, tossing the item, or boost tossing the item.

 

[theeboredone]

I find it amazing how we have a favor over Fox. Although most foxes are predictable and have the same approach, the speed can be really bothersome. We all know their only killing move is Up-Smash and possibly D-Smash. But A good fox would just learn to shine-gimp you o_O.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also, boost-tossing is telegraphed much more than Snake's DACUS; Snake can do it any time he wants and still utilize all of his ground moves, but Ike must have an item in his hand for him to do it. Also, by having an item in his hand, Ike is forced to rely on B attacks if he is on the ground and maybe in the air (can you use aerials while holding an item? I'm actually not sure); it limits your ground options down to either fighting with only B attacks, tossing the item, or boost tossing the item.

Actually, if you keep the A button down as you pick up the item, you can use your smashes with the c-stick. Links do this all of the time...I think. They do that with their bombs, but they might be holding down the B button instead......

That, and I didn't change the match-up ratios in my list against Link and Toon Link compared to what we already had. Same idea with Snake. I don't think I changed the ZSS number either, seeing as I forgot she had throwable items. >_>

 

[Ussi]

ZSS's items last only in the beginning so it doesn't matter.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's about as telegraphed as Snake's DACUS, which isn't very telegraphed at all. Sure, if you take a long running start it is, but if you do it the instant you dash forwards it isn't. It forces the opponent to both think about how they use their items, and to react to Ike's sudden burst of speed, particularly if you threw the item at them, in which case they need to do something about that as well. Now when they throw items, they are potentially giving Ike a quick method of approach. I've pulled this off in several matches, and it works quite well.

It does change things.

no its not DACUS is instant you have to dash for a certain number of frames before you can preform a DACIT.

You are forced to take a long running start theres no if.

 

[Deleted member]

ike chews kirby like bubble gum @ RC.

it's every other stage that the match is gay.

 

[fromundaman]

ike chews kirby like bubble gum @ RC.

it's every other stage that the match is gay.

How come? I must be missing something... (Can't say I have much experience playing against Ike though TBH.)

 

[Ussi]

Umbreon just loves RC (as do I) so we don't see how Ike does bad on it when we do good on it.

It's mainly because Ike has a great air game when battling others in the air since his fair is so long.

 

[fromundaman]

I could see that being the case, but I was thinking that due to a lack of edges, with a Kirby interfering, it could be tough navigating that stage, and if you're forced to use Aether, it provides a lot of lag on this stage.
On top of that, Kirby has lots of tricks here (easy jablock, 0% kills, easy gimps, etc.).

Also, doesn't this stage kind of lessen the impact of Ike's Nair and jabs?

 

[Ussi]

Gimps mainly happen for not knowing the stage well enough. The only time aether is used is when it's going up. That's like 1/3 the time and there a lot of platforms to aether away to.

The other 2/3 jab and nair work fine.

 

[fromundaman]

Ah, all right.

Guess I'd have to play am Ike who knows that stage then.

Also, since I'm starting to really like the stage, how does Ike do on PTAD?

 

[Ussi]

Most Ikes don't know RC cause they think its bad for him ;o Happens to lots of characters who don't realize that stages aren't that bad for them in a long run. So as of now, Ikes have yet to prove anything about RC being good for Ike.

PTAD... Like I would know since I live in NJ, most stages are banned (Even Japes is getting close to banned here)

Well All I know is Ike lives till 40% by the cars... (seriously wtf...)

 

[MysticKenji]

I'd imagine the general lack of ledges on PTAD would recovering a real hassle.

And cars are overpowered.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615

 

[Deleted member]

How come? I must be missing something... (Can't say I have much experience playing against Ike though TBH.)

cause on RC, kirby can't shield all the time, and shield > ike.

 

[fromundaman]

Umm... So? Kirby has an awesome air dodge...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Umm... So? Kirby has an awesome air dodge...

umm no, every AD is the exact same thing.

unless I'm getting confused with spot dodges but I don't think so.

 

[Ussi]

umm no, every AD is the exact same thing.

unless I'm getting confused with spot dodges but I don't think so.

But I thought someone tested that Ike has the best AD with Wario.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Either way, Ike eats ADs for breakfast with his Uair.

Are we at the point where we can move on now? I'd personally vote for DK next. I don't think we've done him.

 

[Deleted member]

Umm... So? Kirby has an awesome air dodge...

ike beats kirby air to air. kirby beats ike air to ground, ground to air, or ground to ground.