Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Ussi]

ComboKing, you efforts will get Pirate Ship BANNED!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

wow I didn't know I could get in trouble for that, its all still smash related and tourney rules do fall into the catagory of my thread, I'm going to make a thread in the last forum of the boards all the way at the bottom to try and work things out. I'm guessing that forum disputes is the only place I would get answers.

 

[•Col•]

ComboKing, you efforts will get Pirate Ship BANNED!

^What Ussi said. >_> There are many people that hate Pirate Ship. We only want the people who main the characters that benefit on the stage to see it... (Ike/Ganondorf/Sonic) <.<

Take it out of your sig. D:


Also... On the topic of "Wtf, why was Ashunera's Library topic closed".... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6664517#post6664517

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

no need to make blogs about it lol, I already made a thread in the forum disputes so I'm pretty sure it will get sorted out soon. Might not be today since its getting late in some places around the world but I doubt that 1 line is enough to get rid of the best thread of 08.

Which reminds me did we ever get our awards from that yagami?

 

[YagamiLight]

Which reminds me did we ever get our awards from that yagami?

Ah no, terribly sorry.

I've got quite a few topics piled up due to both workload and laziness, but since this week is my February break, expect to see:

08' Superlatives

The Gimp Project

Mystic Tomes

Detailed Match-Ups


all worked on and hopefully brought up to a reasonable standard.

Edit: Fun fact, your post is #: 6664666

 

[SaltyKracka]

Hey, I've just had an idea. I'm going to make a list of all of the Ike mains and secondaries who will be attendign Genesis and post it. Would that be alright with everybody? (I could also attempt to update it consistently with new attendees and those who would be unable to go)

If so, kindly PM me.

 

[comboking]

^What Ussi said. >_> There are many people that hate Pirate Ship. We only want the people who main the characters that benefit on the stage to see it... (Ike/Ganondorf/Sonic) <.<

Take it out of your sig. D:

Okay I will edit it.

I also made threads in the ganon and TL boards about it

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Are the matchups mentioned in the first post still accurate today?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Um......Kinda?

 

[Ussi]

well re-discussing will be good.

 

[Ike Hero]

nice tips and pics

 

[Guilhe]

Let's discuss Kirby? Please?

 

[Ussi]

Why the hell haven't we discuss kirby yet?

 

[YagamiLight]

Because Kirby is a fairly boring character. Same reason we haven't done Mario yet.

Anyways yeah, your wishes are my command. Number 31 is Kirby.

 

[Ussi]

But Kirby is high tier while mario is low

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Since the Kirby boards have done our match up already, this should be pretty clear now. I have a friend that mains a pretty bad azz Kirby that's mostly underestimated, I know Ike's match up to Kirby, a bad match up to the point you have to chose your stages right, but not at a unwinnable level match up. ^_^; †

 

[Ussi]

actually we disputed against them lol. So far.

 

[YagamiLight]

actually we disputed against them lol. So far.

Yeah, we say it's even. They say it's a slight advantage.

I thought of a fantastic way of how to list our match-up ratios and I wanted to see if someone else liked the idea.

Basically, it would be a gigantic picture of Ike superimposed on the back of a gigantic tile sheet with a line of character faces and then two pictures of Ragnell and Alondite side by side, with their hilts facing each other. Sort of like:

<-----Alondite---][---Ragnell----->

And we put, say, a red arrow marker on top of the number ratio. Take an even match-up for example, in this case I'll list Peach. She would be in the middle of the two blades with a +0 written above the red marker. Then the top of the sword would be 70:30 and the sword would then be split up into even segments. tl;dr it would be verrrrrryyyyy cool.


But first we need to actually get some ratios going. Would anyone here care to discuss the number aspects? (As it seems no Kirby users will be joining us!)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

yah I can't really picture that in my head you should just do it to see how it looks.

Also how long has this been dead for? I guess its because unless I'm flaming some character boards theres no discussion to be had =P.

 

[YagamiLight]

yah I can't really picture that in my head you should just do it to see how it looks.

Also how long has this been dead for? I guess its because unless I'm flaming some character boards theres no discussion to be had =P.

Well, I (using very ghetto Microsoft Paint skillz) managed to create what it would sort of look like in the case of the ditto match-up. Please note that with Photoshop or whatnot it would look 1000x better:

And yeah, discussion died after Sheik. Oh well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ooooooooooooh, I like it.

However, we would have to redo some match-ups before placing down solid numbers. Like the ones with throwable items we can use again them through DACIT (diddy, rob, wario, snake, etc.)

 

[Asdioh]

Because Kirby is a fairly boring character. Same reason we haven't done Mario yet.

NO U

a bunch of stuff

I remember you :O I thought you were a girl at first, what with the Kagami avatar and the name and the colorful/artistic posts


Aaaaaanyway, I'm a Kirby main, I've been referred to as "the best Kirby in the universe" by the majority of anyone with a brain, and I play a competent Ike as well. Hopefully I can get Kirk and Infern Angelis to judge how competent it is by doing Ike dittos with them at the end of this week >:O


I liek wheat. Let's split this matchup into 3 aspects, shall we?

1. On the ground. Ike's jabs are godly. Everybody knows this. They will generally beat out Kirby's moves, unless Kirby ducks under them and dtilts or powershields and grabs. Ike's utilt is great against Kirby, and his ftilt is..the same as it is against most characters: slow, powerful, long reach. You won't be using it much except to punish, or as a spacing tool if your spacing is really good.

Kirby has a really good grab game, and he can combo Ike out of it pretty well. He can also simply downthrow and then chase Ike, because Ike's limited aerial mobility and aerial options means that he will be fairly predictable upon returning to the ground, and Kirby will usually be able to regrab him and dthrow him again a number of times. You could say that Ike could just use Nair because it has little/no landing lag, but after just getting out of a Dthrow, he won't be able to space well, and Kirby can shield and grab that pretty easily.

So who wins in the ground game? Depends on the situation: mid range, Ike will win with jabs and tilts, and fares well against aerial approaches with uptilt, jabs, and shieldgrabs. If Ike approaches Kirby in the air, with say, a perfectly spaced Fair, that is practically impossible for Kirby to punish. Kirby has the advantage, however, when he's right on top of Ike, pressuring him, and Ike is all like "gtfo me!"

2. In the air. Ike obviously has the range and power here, as always. Fair is essentially unbeatable for Kirby. Dair can beat Kirby's Upair, and Uair can beat Kirby's Dair. Ike's Nair has all around decent range, and no landing lag. His Bair comes out fast, and can KO at fairly high percents. It will also generally beat out Kirby's aerials. The problem with all these aerials is that Ike doesn't have a really good.. "jumping game" and his aerials all have extreme lag in the air. They are also usually telegraphed, and thus fairly easy to avoid.

Kirby's Bair is his staple move, if he hits Ike with it once, Ike will most likely be juggled. Same with Fair. Neither have the range of Ike's moves, but they have the ability to combo well and are not laggy. Kirby will also probably use fullhopped Bairs to space, which can be hard for Ike to deal with. Dair is good, but Ike generally has options to beat it in the air and on the ground. He can also Counter it if it's telegraphed, since Kirby's Dair has some startup lag. Kirby's Uair is similar to his Bair. It may or may not beat out Ike's Dair/Nair, depending on who read who and who used their move first. Kirby's Nair comes out relatively fast, and is usually used to combo because it has no landing lag, much like Ike's Nair. It also has massive ending lag in the air, like Ike's Nair again.

So who will win in the air? If it's spacing, Ike will generally win. If it's a followup to a previously successful move, Kirby will win, until Ike manages to predict and Counter one of his aerials, or Ike finally manages to land on the ground and reposition himself.

3. Offstage. Ike's recovery is pretty bad. If he is forced to Quickdraw, he will usually be blocked, Daired, Stoned, etc. If he is forced to Aether, he will usually be edgehogged, Baired, Stoned, etc. Kirby also gimps Ike very well with Inhale->Starshot. He can also kill himself by accidentally doing a buffered aerial while trying to break out of Inhale offstage. Ike can't really use aerials while trying to recover, unless he wants to die.

Ike can also gimp Kirby fairly well, though not as easily as Kirby can gimp him. Reverse Aether spikes, Dair spikes, and Dtilt spikes are surprisingly easy to pull off on Kirby's slow, predictable self. Kirby's aerial speed is slow. If Kirby is forced to use Final Cutter to recover against a good Ike, he's in a bad position. This can not only be Dair/Dtilt spiked, but Countered.

And for a last note, KO power. Ike would normally win by a good margin in KO power, if not for the fact that you don't need to actually knock Ike into the blast zone to KO him when you're playing Kirby. All you need to do is get him far enough offstage so that he has to recover, and then gimp him. There really is not a whole lot he can do.

Kirby's Fsmash is his primary KO move. He also has Bair (fresh at fairly high percents) aerial hammer (not terribly hard to pull off) grounded hammer (requires great reading/punishment) Dsmash (slightly faster than Fsmash, with slightly less range and knockback...but if it sends Ike horizontally, that's bad for Ike. Upsmash (hard to pull off in most cases, but possible) aaaaand Eruption (superarmor FTW!). He also has Upthrow at high percents, and especially on platforms, and Stone (easier to pull off than you think) and freaking Fair's third kick can KO if you're offstage near the blastzone. That list is pretty big. XD

Ike can KO with pretty much everything except usually: Nair, Dsmash (doesn't seem that powerful to me, but it can KO at fairly high percents) and his grabs.

Both characters will be dying at low percents, or in some cases, both will be dying at high percents XD. This matchup really just comes down to who makes a mistake and gets punished.

Sorry for the random colors, I put this matchup at either 50:50 or 55:45 Kirby's favor because of the fact that Ike gets gimped pretty bad.

Ikes that camp Nair/Fair to jabs/shieldgrabs can be really annoying to deal with. Kirby can spam Final Cutter to screw this up, but that's no fun for me. Final Cutter is also pretty easy to punish, but I think a maximum distance Cutter can be hard for Ike to punish, unless he sees it coming well ahead of time, he can probably punish it with a Dash Attack.

Speaking of which, I spam Ike's Dash Attack. I probably shouldn't.
Kirby's Dash Attack sends you into the air, where you will most likely be comboed, so watch out, and shield the whole thing.


LONG POST IS LONG

I will reevaluate my opinion on the matchup after playing a bunch of matches against Kirk and Infern Angelis this weekend, because as far as I know, they are some of the better Ikes.
And I'm one of the better Kirbys I promise :o

 

[Ussi]

^pretty much a complete assessment and a good one too. I agree with all of it.

Personally i think 45:55 but don't know where the other Ikes stand at.

 

[YagamiLight]

Asdioh is just tooooo cool. What a nice guy.

You certainly don't mind if I use that for a write-up do you?

 

[Asdioh]

Go ahead. Maybe you can organize it better than I did x_x

Where's Kirk? Need moar Kirk.

I'm curious about his opinion on the matchup before he plays me, and afterwards :D

 

[MK26]

Aaaaaanyway, I'm a Kirby main, I've been referred to as "the best Kirby in the universe" by the majority of anyone with a brain,

NO U

the rest of the post is unimportant
(I personally see this as 60-40 Kirby, but im just the dude that moderates the Kirby matchup thread, so my opinion doesn't count for more than double anyone else's. 55-45 is arguable too, and that's probably where its gonna end up)

 

[NinjaLink]

defintely kirbys favor. i just did this matchup during the weekend. Stick to the ground approach due to the fact kirby can block ur aerials and bair outta shield. If the kirby is patient or turtle-y ( which most kirbys seem to do now) it makes it really hard. His roll beats out ur aerials also. If u aerial and he rolls, u cant punish it. But u can punish his rolls with aerials......if that makes sense. Best punisher against kirbys rolls is dair for me at least. just space jabs on shield, force a mistake and go from there. If u wanna space with nair dont fast fall it JUST INCASE he rolls so he'll get hit with the back end of the nair.

 

[san.]

I believe it's slightly in kirby's favor. Kirby has nice, powerful moves that has the power to get Ike offstage pretty fast, especially if a grab gets in. It's really a game of who can outcamp who, with ike wanting to stay on stage while kirby wants the gimp. It's surprisingly difficult to get a smash on a good kirby, especially due to the dangers involved and the aerial spacing and grab/smash dangers on ground.

Everything else is basically pretty much covered concerning grabs and offstage though. Kirby should definitely watch out for jab games, because of his floaty nature. Each can punish each other SEVERELY, but it's a slightly easier job for the kirby if played the right way to counteract Ike. Ike should not become predictable in this matchup.

 

[Deleted member]

I play this match with chu a lot. this match is gay. really gay.

 

[Lord Viper]

I play this match with chu a lot. this match is gay. really gay.

☆ That's what my friend told me that, (the match up with Kirby part). XD ☆

☆ Anyways, a good amount of stage's that Kirby can counter pick to defeat Ike that come into mind. ☆

Luigi's Mansion
Pokemon Stadum 2
Skyworld
Distant Planet
Pokemon Stadum (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Port Town Aero Drive
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Final Destination
Pictochat
Yoshi's Island

☆ And now a good stages that counter Kirby with Ike that come in my mind. ☆

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Brinstar
Delfino Plaza
Corneria
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Onett
Green Hill Zone
Norfair
Pirate Ship
Mario Circuit

☆ There we go, of course you can correct the errors. And some stage's bring up the numbers of Ike's match up to Kirby higher than others like Delfino Plaza, Norfair, Pirate Ship, or Brinstar, (unless your Asdioh). But Kirby has Pokemon Stadum 2, Skyworld, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadum (Melee), Rainbow Cruise, Halberd,
Lylat Cruise that come into mind that bring up Kirby's match up to Ike at highly at Kirby's favor. Number guess? I'll say as much as 60-40 Kirby. ☆

 

[fromundaman]

So far this seems accurate. There's really just one thing I want to point out:
Inhale devastates Ike.
If we manage to get inhale off near the edge, our options for screwing you over are nearly limitless. We can doo the following:

-Kirbicide if you don't struggle.

-Starshot if you do struggle and wath you buffer something, then proceed to point and laugh as you curse the lag on your aerials and/or limited recovery.

-Starshot you to a 'hard to recover from' location (IE under the stage).

-Let you break out then footstool (which itself leads to FF Dair to another footstool. I need to test it more to see if it's escapable for Ike. Seems easy to do in any case.).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

why would PS1 FD and yoshi's be counters against Ike? It doesn't seem like they would give kirby a really big advantage.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Hmm, two good Kirby mainers I know are here, (Asdioh and Viper JLT4GOV). I guess more will come. †

why would PS1 FD and yoshi's be counters against Ike? It doesn't seem like they would give kirby a really big advantage.

♪ Pokemon Stadum is depends on the tranfomation, Viper knows all about that stage, (because I went though hell Brawling him on it), like is Normal is... neutral when fighting, Fire is for Ike, Water Kirby can use it a lot better, Rock Kirby again, and Grass is neutral. I'll agree when facing Kirby I don't think Pokemon Stadum 1 is a huge boost but when Brawling Viper JLT4GOV it's like 100:0 Kirby's favor. >.< †

♪ Yoshi's Island and Final Destination is agruable since I think Ike as the advantage on Yoshi's Island but I'll agree on FD being in Kirby's favor. †

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike likes Distant Planet. The stage gives him free items to use for his DACIT, and the platforms help Ike's game a fair bit. Green Greens is also one of Ike's favorite stages: As in, probably fourth best after Pirate Ship, Delfino, and Battlefield, and it just so happens Green Greens also gives Ike items for his DACIT.

PS2 is a fairly good stage for Ike as well. Only the electric part is a pain for Ike. Do you really want to face an Ike that is sliding around on the ice stage Fsmashing and is basically unpunishable? Or is floating around in the air stage spamming his long range aerials.

Ike also likes Halbred, but I would imagine that stage helps Kirby more over all. Same idea with Rainbow Cruise and Picochat.

I'm not so sure Kirby would want to go to Port Town Aerial Drive either. Ike isn't in danger of being OHKO'd by the cars. In fact, I believe he's fairly safe up to 40ish%.

 

[Ussi]

@Sleepy, does everyone you know use colored font?

wtf @ port town killing ike at 40% O_o why are the cars that strong

Halberd idk what gives the stage completely to kirby. Sure he can attack under the stage. But Ike can SPIKE over the stage since dair can hit from above. Dtilt could be used if Kirby is touching the main stage. Kirby doesn't have a disjoint to hit above (Or does he?) so if he tries to attack from under, he's open to dair/dtilt.

the low ceiling also doesn't help Kirby much since his usmash is harder to hit with than Kirby's other moves. Ike has uair, utilt, usmash and they all are strong and gonna kill earlier. And I believe the stage is more wider so Kirby's fsmash is less effective than usual.

Lastly, the stage protects Ike from swallow deaths since he'll just go through it instead of getting stuck under it. (except on the ship itself)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because the cars are stupid. Even so, I hope that stage is legal in more tournaments. I would SO use that as a CP stage against Snake. Not MK though, stupid bugger would just fly above the cars...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

♪ Pokemon Stadum is depends on the tranfomation, Viper knows all about that stage, (because I went though hell Brawling him on it), like is Normal is... neutral when fighting, Fire is for Ike, Water Kirby can use it a lot better, Rock Kirby again, and Grass is neutral. I'll agree when facing Kirby I don't think Pokemon Stadum 1 is a huge boost but when Brawling Viper JLT4GOV it's like 100:0 Kirby's favor. >.< †

♪ Yoshi's Island and Final Destination is agruable since I think Ike as the advantage on Yoshi's Island but I'll agree on FD being in Kirby's favor. †

bold size 3 times new roman darkorchid and plum? god **** how do you remember all that... and then those crosses and music things 0.0

I just noticed your from texas though did you just move here or add your location? It feels odd not knowing that there was another texas Ike out there.

FD and PS1 just seem neutral to me. What is kirby going to do in the rock form use his own rock? If Ike just stop dodges hello free Fsmash and all he can do is break out early because a fully charged one is going to break through the rock.

And I don't see what gives kirby an advantage in FD, usually the people who do get it there are the ones that can camp well and keep people at bay but kirby doesn't fit into that.

 

[Ussi]

I prefer to use eruption on an idle kirby rock, but fsmash works too if not staled (LOL) but most kirbys know to NOT stay in rock form before hitting the ground.

 

[Asdioh]

If Ike just stop dodges hello free Fsmash and all he can do is break out early because a fully charged one is going to break through the rock.

Does a fully charged Fsmash do 30%? If it does, then it will knock Kirby out of Stone, but not do any damage. If it does less than 30%, it won't do anything, and Kirby will transform out and hit you XD

I just thought of an epic mindgame. If I DO miss the Stone like that, and Ike was charging Fsmash, I'd say "oh crap" or something and then start mashing the A button, making lotsa noise with my controller. Hitting the A button wouldn't do anything since you need to use the Special (B, and Y for me since I changed Special to Y) button to get out. And Ike would think "he's getting out!" and release his Fsmash but I didn't REALLY get out :D

...yeah.

Anyway, Halberd is a terrible stage to pick against Ike. He WILL kill you early with Uptilt or something, or he WILL spike you through the stage if you try to attack from below.

 

[Ussi]

fsmash I believe does 32.5% fully charged and kills kirby at 25% ish (Mario is 22% no DI training mode middle of FD)