Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Ussi]

Either way, Ike eats ADs for breakfast with his Uair.

Are we at the point where we can move on now? I'd personally vote for DK next. I don't think we've done him.

I did him though, lol so lets just put my post on him and move on.

Ike vs DK

Its the power powerhouse verse the speed powerhouse. This is a match up I have experienced heavily, so I will say what I believe about it.

Ike Pros:

More Priority
Longer aerial range
Jab is faster than DK
Counter against DK's punch/fsmash
Easier target to hit (Shield pokes and bigger target)

DK's Pros

Longer ground range (down B has the longest ground range in the game)
Up B and DK Punch have reliable SAFs that can be abused
Sakurai Combo is ridiculous
WoP Bair
Faster.. in everything aspect [running, aerial mobility, walking]
Good Grab game

Even aspects:

Both have easy to gimp recoveries
Spikes
High KO Power

Now the list looks fairly even, however that faster pro DK has is pretty big pro.


Now I've said in previous match up discussions that Ike's range makes up for his speed. In this match up, however, DK has more speed, better ground range, and COMPARABLE KO POWER. DDD, Bowser, Ganondarf, none of them compare to DK's speed/power ratios and those ratios take a toll on Ike. And DK is the heaviest overall character... so he lives forever. (Fsmash kills by 80% though) (It's like fighting Snake who traded his projectiles for an air game)


DK's ground range is so good that his fsmash will punish Ike's front side of usmash. So you must ALWAYS hit with the BACKSIDE of usmash.


Jab cancels work wonders on DK, hitting him with 3-5 series of jabs. Finishing with dtilt of the edge is effective. In fact, JAB IS IKE'S SAVING GRACE IN THIS MATCH UP (Or well, in brawl). It cancels out all of DK's tilts and Up B and is faster than any move DK has. In fact, work on canceling DK's ftilt with your jab then quickly follow up with more jabs and jab cancels (make sure you do two jabs so you move forward) [just don't get grabbed then]


DK has an amazing grab game. His cargo toss lets him carry you, gives him 4 new throw options, and lets him throw people into/under stages. Be careful they might dthrow then mind game a fair on you. Learn to tech as well... and button mash... I recommend diagonal c-stick motions. There is a point where DK can cargo dthrow you and you'll be in your dead zone... don't let DK get that far.

When it comes to priority, our sword will go thru DK's attacks since he is extending his hurtbox to attack us. This is why spacing is CRUCIAL cause our aerials will always go thru his. [Grounds moves apparently do not follow this and have the 10% rule]


DK's dtilt is fast. he can do it twice and if he trips you, which is a high chance of, he'll follow up with a down B. Boom 40% on you.


DK will use his Up B and B for their SAFs. His grounded Up B will do around 20% if all the hits hit you. Your jab will cancel it, your ftilt will go through it. If he is in a grounded Up B, he can't go backwards. Oh and aerial Up B has invincibility frames during 4-6.


The Sakurai Combo is just... stupid. DK uses side B and puts you in the ground then DK punches you. A 9 punch will kill you by 60%... so don't fall for it.. his Side B eats shields as well.

Don't challenge DK's usmash, your dair won't win.

DK has a great dsmash, but its unsafe on block. Utilt/ftilt him on block. Fsmash if you are good enough to PS and react right away. THERE ARE SIX FRAMES TO INITIATE FSMASH

About aerials, both of their bairs are 7 frames start the hitbox. DK's ,however, lasts for 9 frames (first 3 are the strong hit) while ours last for 2. Their bair is longer and ends faster so theirs is better. His Bair can WoP, and its a great approach. DK's love to use bair, learn to effectively fight against it. Out fair outranges it. Try to aim for his foot during his bair when you expect it coming.

Ike's fair is faster than DK's fair so DK can't attack in front of him in the air unless its his punch so if you think he'll use its SAF to eat your fair whip out counter. Ike's uair is amazing at shield poking the upper area of DK's shield and eating his ADs since he is so big. Last thing to note, is DK's uair is good at juggling and fast, however your dair goes thru his head.

Both Ike and DK have easy to gimp recoveries. DK can fsmash/tilt Ike out of his recovery so you have to keep Aether's apex above DK's fsmash hitbox. I'd say QD mind games if he is expecting aether.

DK's recovery is asking for a spike. One aetherspike and DK is DEAD, his Up B is worthless in canceling meteors. Dair or dtilt work as well. Best thing to do is to grab the ledge, and bair him if he tries to uses his Up B to knock you off the ledge or reverse aether if he tries to go above you. Now when DK uses his Up B onto the stage, there is a small area where he'll get a lagless landing. If he gets his lag landing, you have enough time to ftilt him. If his Up B touches the ground, it will turn into a ground Up B.

I recommend RC as a good counterpick. He only has bair and uair then and loses his magnificent ground game. Or Yoshi's Island** so he can't throw you under the stage.

Stay the hell away from Japes.

EDIT: DK has an invincibility trick on YI now so be warned about it.

tl;dr

45/55 DK's favor

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh.

I didn't see it in the first post. >_<

Um........I'm honestly reluctant to do Ness seeing how the Lucas discussion went......Captain Falcon, provided A2 doesn't come in going "lul, Ike has the advantage, but barely, 55/45 Ike" like he basically did when they discussed Ike. >_>

 

[Deleted member]

ness is kind of like lucas except totally ****ty. i say we go for it.

 

[Lord Viper]

ike beats kirby air to air. kirby beats ike air to ground, ground to air, or ground to ground.

☆ Ike beat's Kirby air vs air?! No way, though Ike has a nice knock back on his air moves, but his have either start up lag, or ending lag with the end of his attacks then he's trap for a move Kirby will do, while Kirby air moves are all almost lagless except for D-Air, N-Air, or his Down-B, (unless your using Fast Rock). I don't see how Ike beat's Kirby in the air unless you catch us off gard with moves like Basic-B Up-B, or maybe N-Air. I'll say that Ike is better on ground combat. ☆

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike has more range in the air, and probably faster air movement. (Ike has air movement on par with Toon Links, as well as the fact I remember that the Kirby Universe characters all had slow air movement. Might be off on Kirby's though)

Ike also has 2 moves that go though ADs with ease (Uair, Nair), and another move that can go though ADs, but has stricter timing. (Dair). Ike may be able to stay in the air as long as Kirby, but three of his moves can AC (Nair, Bair, Dair), and the other two have a lot of IASA frames, meaning he can get back into the air quickly when needed.

However, I don't believe that is the only place that Ike > Kirby. Ike beats Kirby on the ground outside of that one combo IMO.

 

[fromundaman]

Nidtendo, I think you highly underestimate Kirby's ground game, but meh. I don't know.

A good Ike with good spacing can be tough, but if Ike had Kirby beat on the ground and air, it wouldn't be so close to even.

Also, any successful WoP = death for Ike.

Any offstage starshot = death for Ike.

(And no, not all air dodges are the same, and Kirby's in particular has some weird traits, though since I'm still messing with it, I won't say any more atm.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's possible that I've underestimated Kirby's ground game, but most people underestimate Ike's ground game outside of jabs, which could be the case here as well.

And as far as I know, most of the Ike people feel that this match-up is close to even. Like, either 4-6 or 45-55 from our point of view. I said Ike could possibly have the advantage outside of the combo, suggesting that Kirby has the ground advantage due to the fact that he has that combo on Ike. Not a large one, but a small one nevertheless.

WoP is fairly easy to AD, and would be successful if Ike had already used up his second jump and didn't DI upwards. Otherwise Ike has a fairly good chance of making it back, depending on where he is and where Kirby is. But it's not an instant death.

Same idea with starshot. It's not an instant death for Ike. Does it place him in a very awkward position? Yes of course. Can he still make it back? Yes, particularly at BF and SV with the slopes. Worse comes to worse, Ike can stick to those stages for neutrals, and take Kirby to Delfino, Pirate Ship, and Mario Circuit if he's that scared of the star shot.

 

[fromundaman]

Actually, inhale in general ****s Ike if Kirby makes it offstage. Here's why:

-Option 1: You don't struggle and get Kirbicided.

-Option 2: You struggle and we spit you out, which buffers an aerial and you die.

-Option 3: We wait until we reach a spot where you can't recover to spit you out.

-Option 4: We let you break out and proceed to FS>FF Dair>FS (I'm almost certain this is guaranteed on Ike, though I'm still trying to test it more.)

Also, yeah, Ike has other ground options. Like Utilt, which hurts Kirby pretty badly...

As for your CPs, PS and MC are best. Delfino is one of Kirby's better stages.

Hmmm... I thought we could Bair WoP fast enough so you can't AD, though I could be wrong.

 

[san.]

I'm not sure how successful you would be in getting an inhale on Ike in the first place. Can't think of any situations, really. Ike should be careful when trying to edgeguard a multi-jump character.

Can't Ike safely hit Kirby out of inhale with fair?

I don't think this is too hard a matchup for Ike. Ike's goal is to keep kirby out, which isn't incredibly difficult given kirby's aerial speed and range, but kirby has some nasty ways to get stocks off of Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Struggling doesn't always buffer an aerial. You can just use the joystick and L + R buttons can't you? I believe that would make it so no aerial occurs as Ike shoots out. Or I could be wrong and you need the A button to get out.

With option 4, is that letting out on the stage? As in, is FS = Front Smash? Or something else?

Delfino is good for Ike as well. If you try to attack under the stage, you get Dtilt'd to your death, there is water for water spiking, aether through the platform to get on (AKA, harder time gimping Ike by putting him under the stage, using aerials through the main platform, and walls for Fthrow fun. If this was neutral in TX, I'd use it as my pick every single time unless it got strike'd.

 

[fromundaman]

Sorry, I should have specified. By FS I mean Footstool.

Also, yes, you can struggle that way, but the best way to struggle is by hitting as many buttons/directions as possible, so essentially wiggling C-stick and control stick while hitting other buttons. Most opponents tend to buffer.

Inhale beats everything if it gets in range (AKA if you space badly, but come on, you're an Ike main... If you're maining Ike odds are you know how to space well. I was just throwing that out there to put you on guard, and if we get even 1 inhale near the edge that can be a stock. Honestly, I use it to punish Ike if you give me the chance, however rare that is.).

TBH though, most of what I am doing is theorizing, for as I said, I haven't really played a good Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do the taunt buttons count towards the struggling total? >_> <_<

And if you are theorizing about inhaling, I shall theorize about what will happen if you screw up with the final cutter near Ike while on the stage and end up facing the wrong way. Fsmash time. XD

Ya, a lot of people haven't played a good Ike, seeing as there are what, maybe 8 really good Ikes there? And most of them are in the NE area. Then you have a few fairly good Ikes, and then a bunch of Ikes like me (terrible).

 

[YagamiLight]

I've been a bit busy lately, so sorry for the late update. DK for now then Ness and then rest of the stuff isn't really important ;P.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

But I thought someone tested that Ike has the best AD with Wario.

well I remember kirk saying I found something interesting all ADs are the same during the PT discussion but w/e I might be wrong.

Actually, inhale in general ****s Ike if Kirby makes it offstage. Here's why:

-Option 1: You don't struggle and get Kirbicided.

-Option 2: You struggle and we spit you out, which buffers an aerial and you die.

-Option 3: We wait until we reach a spot where you can't recover to spit you out.

-Option 4: We let you break out and proceed to FS>FF Dair>FS (I'm almost certain this is guaranteed on Ike, though I'm still trying to test it more.)

Also, yeah, Ike has other ground options. Like Utilt, which hurts Kirby pretty badly...

As for your CPs, PS and MC are best. Delfino is one of Kirby's better stages.

Hmmm... I thought we could Bair WoP fast enough so you can't AD, though I could be wrong.

option 1 - you'd have to be ********

option 2 - you'd have to be ********, you realize we can struggle with x y joy stick l r and z safely right? mashing buttons is better than using the control stick and all you did was get rid of 2 buttons.

option 3- doesn't happen even at 100%+ you won't have time to go that far down before Ike can break out.

option 4- I remember seeing somewhere that when you break out of kirby's inhale you end up above him and he is the one who gets foot stooled. In which case you might be forced to use your up B which = dtilt spike.

Bair wop won't kill Ike either as long as he DIs correctly and doesn't waste his second jump. Whats MC though I forgot and why would delfino be great for kirby because he can attack from underneath? we already covered that Ike can spike through the stage and the water is great for Ike even if kirby can do a lag less rock thing on there he can't kill as well as Ike can.

 

[Ussi]

MC = Mario Circuit... never seen it legal though.

Ike's ground game loses to shield. lol

 

[fromundaman]

I'm not sure. If we are talking AD length, then yes, but I was messing with it yesterday and found that Kirby's AD has different characteristics depending on if you DI backwards or forwards (which honestly makes no sense whatsoever...)

option 4- I remember seeing somewhere that when you break out of kirby's inhale you end up above him and he is the one who gets foot stooled. In which case you might be forced to use your up B which = dtilt spike.

That depends. If Kirby is moving horizontally, then maybe. If he has no horizontal momentum, Ike appears below Kirby. I'll check again tonight though.
I agree with everything else (though I didn't know about the 3rd one.), though if the FS thing is 100% guaranteed, then there's not much you can do about it regardless.
As for the buffered aerial... you'd be surprised how many people I've gotten with that (though as an Ike main you're bound to be more careful, as you'd kind of have to be).

EDIT: Ussi, MC is legal in the Midwest, and probably certain other places.

TBH, I think you guys have the ratio about right, I'm just trying to get a better idea of how the actual matchup plays out.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Done with Kirby I see, I'll be back for Ness. =P ☆

 

[Ussi]

Light I think my post was sufficient for DK.. I mean what else is there to add?

 

[Kirk]

Light I think my post was sufficient for DK.. I mean what else is there to add?

You forgot to add that Ook is a FREAKING BEAST!

 

[YagamiLight]

Light I think my post was sufficient for DK.. I mean what else is there to add?

I'll be honest, there isn't much to add. Your ratio is probably off, but who cares about the ratio, really? It's an even match-up, be it 45-55 or 55-45.

I think I'll just make it Ness

EDIT: ook is indeed beastly, I saw his combo video a while ago.

 

[Kimchi]

Anyway, on to Ness. His Fair is an extreme annoyance. If I'm not mistaken, it's better than Ike's. At 135% and above, expect a Bthrow. When you're right next to Ness, watch out for a Nair OOS. Anyway, Ness's Fair has some similar properties to G&W's Bair in that the attack lasts a while. When you think you shielded all of his Fair, don't be fooled and try to punish Ness earlier. It's cost me a lot and I've gained unnecessary damage for it. Ness's killing potential is limited to his Bthrow, Fsmash, PKT2, Nair at high percentages, Bair, and PK Flash if you're stupid enough to get caught in it. Ness's air game is, I have to say, pretty good, but Ike should be fine with his own aerial moveset. Just watch out for Ness's Fair, really. It's very, very annoying. If Ness is offstage and trying to recover with PKT, you can try to intercept his recovery with Counter or if you're a risktaker, a walkoff Dair. In one of his videos against his brother, metroid tried a reverse Aether but I wouldn't really recommend it as you could mess up and QD to your death, get hit by PKT2, or get edgehogged if you mistime it. This is my opinion though.

 

[Brinzy]

This fight is interesting. Both characters edgeguard the hell out of each other, both characters only need one or two large swoops in momentum to take a match, and both characters can end stocks quickly.

But... the difference in range and the fact that Ike is strongly anti-air hurts Ness. Projectiles may screw with Ike a bit, but that's mainly for gimps/early kills. A well-placed PKF can harm Ike, but that won't happen too much.

Play defensive. Ness can't really keep pressure on his opponents that well. His fair gets outranged here, so it's even harder. This is a match-up where you should just rely on your range for pretty much everything. 55:45 Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Fair > Ness's Fair. Ike has more range and more power behind it. Ness's Fair isn't bad though. In fact, I'd say it's one of the top 5, if not top 3 Fairs out there.

Just SDI out of the PK Fire, you'll only take 4% damage, and you don't have to worry about getting shieldgrab.

Ness has a good airgame in general, both fast as strong, and moves through the air faster then Ike, so be careful if taking him on in the air. It's close in comparison as to who has the better air game.

However, Ike wins on the ground. PK Flash is lol, PK Shield is worthless, PK Thunder is only a big hassle when recovering/being juggled, and PK Fire should only be dealing 4% damage at max, unless you somehow get hit with it off stage.

Ike's jabs seem to work really well against the EB boys. I don't know if it's just me, but I can get the most jab cancels off of those two. Plus, if you grab Ness, you're either getting a free jab, or a free dash attack, depending on how he breaks. Even Extra Inch DI doesn't move him out of jab range in time.

Ness's Fsmash can kill, but it's slow. Faster then our Fsmash obviously, but still enough time to block in more cases. Dsmash can spike, but I'm not sure how good it is out side of that. Usmash is kinda funky as well as to how well it can do. Sometimes I take barely any hits. Some times I get knocked around a lot by it.

Ness's Dtilt can be annoying at time, and can trip, but it has minimal range. If Ness is that close and you haven't jabbed yet, you're doing something wrong.

Both can gimp each other well.

I'd personally say 55-45 our advantage. Ness may have the air game, but we have more of an edge in the ground game.

 

[theeboredone]

I think Ness' PK Fire can be quite annoying. If you get caught in it, especially in the beginning of a fight, you will suffer a good amount of damage from the PK fire to throw. So do your best to SDI out of the fire. Also it's interesting to note that some of Ike's best CP's apply to Ness as well. While Pirate ship gives a slight advantage to Ike (if you use the slanting terrain right), the water can be used on both sides, and also noting that Ness has probably the best spike in the game. Delfino goes slightly to Ness because you can use PK Thunder below the delfino platform, and I think Ness can use the terrain better on that stage. Also there is the water.

Overall, I think it's a good even match up, it just depends on who has more skill or match up experience.

Ike 55-45

 

[metroid1117]

Granted, I haven't played any good Ness players offline, but since I play this match-up with my brother a lot (for the past 8 months lolol), I think I know his capabilities pretty well.

Ness' FAir is easily his most annoying aerial; it has a deceptively large hitbox, hits 5 times, and can be auto-canceled from a short-hop. You can out-range it with your FAir, but the spacing has to be pretty tight in order to do so. You can also SDI out of the FAir, which negates it's usefulness, but the point of FAir is to interrupt you and set up for other stuff. His BAir is a great killing move, along with his UAir, and NAir is excellent out of shield. DAir is the second most powerful spike in the game (at low %s before Ganondorf's DAir has the chance to get stronger, it is the most powerful spike in the game) and even if it doesn't spike the non-sweetspot hit is pretty powerful, so watch out for that too.

On the ground, he'll probably be focusing on dash attack to set up for juggles, DThrow to set you up for juggles, and DTilt to get you away. He's not much of a threat here until at high percents (125-ish%) where he'll most likely go for the pummel -> BThrow, which WILL kill you if you don't DI properly (aim for the corner, not straight up) and momentum cancel with DAir + fastfall.

Ike's FAir will cut right through all of Ness' usual attacks save for PK Fire. Don't NAir much, otherwise you'll get out-ranged by his FAir. If he ever shields your jabs, watch out if you go for the grab, since he'll probably use NAir out of shield.

In one of his videos against his brother, metroid tried a reverse Aether but I wouldn't really recommend it as you could mess up and QD to your death, get hit by PKT2, or get edgehogged if you mistime it. This is my opinion though.

Reverse Aetherspiking is pretty risky, but if you practice it you shouldn't have to be afraid of QD'ing to your death (I freely admit that I've done this before ) and if you watch where the Ness aims his PK Thunder, you shouldn't have that much of a problem hitting him with reverse Aether (otherwise you'll get edgehogged... and that always looks stupid). If he's coming from far away (1/2 PKT2 distance), Counter is a great edgeguard, since it'll do a hefty amount of damage and a lot of knockback. A little closer than that, reverse Aether'ing is probably the best option, since you can hit with it from below the stage and above it. You can also BAir him during it if you're close enough during start-up (when he's trying to hit himself) or spike him even, but watch out for the tail portion hitting you. DAir CAN hit him even when he's in PKT2, but not right after he hits himself (during which he has invincibility frames, which is why you can't Counter his recovery 100% of the time). Edgeguarding Ness is probably the most fun part about the match-up, there are just so many ways you can do it.

If you want some laughs, you can always purposely get hit by PKT2 to shorten it's length, then tech against the stage to survive while they fall to their death.

Ike can be edgeguarded like crazy by Ness, however; PK Fire -> DAir spike is a very dangerous combo, especially since Aether cannot auto-sweetspot. If you do get hit by the PK Fire, try to SDI up on the initial hit to break out. You can try to tech the DAir spike if you're close enough to the stage, but that probably isn't going to work.

It could be my bias from playing/beating my brother so often, but it seems as though this match-up is in Ike's favor.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Light I think my post was sufficient for DK.. I mean what else is there to add?

I want to talk about DK hes kool unlike ness.

Plus I'm still wondering why everyone thinks luigi's mansion is so great for DK against Ike, bored 2 stocked a pretty decent DK there in a money match.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

EDIT: I checked the Ness boards and didn't see anything notifying them about this discussion, so I'm just going to do that now.

Yes we did, in their match-up topic. Making a new topic to say "come here to discuss the match-up" is no longer allowed.

 

[Kimchi]

I'm not entirely sure myself, but down special is definitely one of the reasons why LM is great for DK against Ikes. Bored in fact told me he was surprised that he 2stocked that DK at LM. I'm assuming that it's great for DK, because Ike can't double hop aerials easily.

 

[Deleted member]

I bet $100 I have more top ike vs top kirby experience than anyone else in the world.

 

[metroid1117]

Yes we did, in their match-up topic. Making a new topic to say "come here to discuss the match-up" is no longer allowed.

Yeah, I saw his post and stopped myself >.>. I didn't know they made that rule, thanks for the info.

 

[Shaky]

Ike's jabs seem to work really well against the EB boys. I don't know if it's just me, but I can get the most jab cancels off of those two. Plus, if you grab Ness, you're either getting a free jab, or a free dash attack, depending on how he breaks. Even Extra Inch DI doesn't move him out of jab range in time.

DI away from ike out of the grab then SDI out of first hit of jab. I think the matchup is 55-45 Ness' favor.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm fairly sure Jab 1->Jab2 is not avoidable though SDI. If Ike jab cancels back to Jab1 again maybe. I may have more Lucas experience then Ness experience, but the guy was good. He near beat Hylian's G&W in pools. He knew how to SDI. I could almost always land at least 3 jabs out of a ground release.

 

[san.]

I really think ness has a hard time against Ike. Ike doesn't have much fear of gimps against ness, especially since it's pretty dangerous to follow him offstage. Edgeguarding ness, however, is a pretty easy task. A speedhug to the the ledge by itself already puts the ness in extreme danger.

Ike beats out ness in terms of aerials. Ness' fair can be a fair annoyance, but if one watches out for it, spacing around ness in the air is not too hard at all, especially with ness' susceptibility to Ike's nair. A good ness player has been trained to get the grab in while avoiding grabs himself, but Ike's jabs and spacing with aerials really helps. If Ike grabs ness, it's guaranteed jabs thereafter, and puts ness in a vulnerable position.

To be quite honest, I believe this match is a good portion in favor of Ike, like 60:40.

 

[Uffe]

This match up used to be nowhere near in Ike's favor. Of course things change and so did Ike's metagame if that's the correct term to use. Basically Ness doesn't need to approach Ike. Ike's jab cancel is a bit tough to avoid. His fair kind of throws me off which I usually end up landing into some how. It's kind of hard to say where you should bring Ike as far as aerial or ground approaches go. But it's usually his jab cancel and fair that give me the toughest time.

Than against I haven't really fought the new Ike. Also, let's avoid the gimping game, because both can basically screw each other over as far as recovering has to go. I don't have a ratio for these two yet. I'll need to play more Ike's. Also, I noticed the amazing pictures on the first page of this match up thread. For Ness, use this one!

 

[Deleted member]

ike gimps ness a LOT harder than the other way around

 

[_clinton]

Anyone want to play a few sometime?

Oh and how does Ike gimp Ness harder?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Anyone want to play a few sometime?

Oh and how does Ike gimp Ness harder?

I have played you _clinton, I'm the guy from the Ike/Marth topic on the GameFAQs boards.

However, I'm not the best example of a good Ike as you found out. >_>

And I honestly think they gimp each other about equally. Both Up Bs have some time before they actually set into motion (Ike sitting there with SAFs, Ness moving the thunder), which gives the other guy plenty of time to set up a gimp (Ness can PK Fire or PK Thunder aether's peek with ease, or use a yo-yo, Ike can walk-off fair, Counter, Dtilt, Dair, or charge eruption.)

I guess maybe Ike has a slight edge, but it's basically irrelevant. Neither player should be able to get back on stage if they have to use a recovery move.

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

Ya know, I don't have too much trouble with Ike, it's usually fairly even. But this is probably because I've been incorporating PKT2 into my game a lot more than usual.

And I believe that's just it...PSI is very good against Ike. If you get him in the air, start juggling with PKT and random uncharged PK Flashes. If you get him offstage, PK Flash to get him in an unfavorable position, or kill him outright. A well-timed PKT2 works wonders, just because Ness should be stalling his PKT out or faking Ike out by missing himself and tailwhipping him instead.

The Jab is the most annoying thing to deal with, though. For the most part, I like to stay in Ike's face with Fair and double Nairs so for the most part he can't rely on his slower, more powerful moves. It sucks to get hit by Ike's sword at any point in time, because Ness becomes a rocket.

I'd say 55-45 slightly in Ness's favor, just because I think people are underestimating how painful his PK moves can be. Otherwise, Ike's power really hurts Ness's giant head.

 

[Ussi]

PKT2 normally gets Ness countered if he does it from far away. And if Ike reads Ness's PKT, Ike can punish with a fsmash.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

PKT2 normally gets Ness countered if he does it from far away. And if Ike reads Ness's PKT, Ike can punish with a fsmash.

Or a Hyphen Smash. That would be even easier as Ike could move his hurtbox just out of range, but keep his hitbox in range.

The last thing you are going to be wanting to use against Ike when he's on stage are your laggy attacks. Meaning no PKT or PKFlash. And arguably no PKfire once he gets closer.