Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[swordgard]

pivot grab dacus?? Good ic dont fall behind and if we do we put u in that situation where ur more than likely to choke at the last 30 seconds.

Alright wario wins if he doesnt get grabbed for 8 straight minutes hows that for u wario lurkers -_- sheesh lol. You also win on cruise and brinstar, but if u have less exp than the ic player than ull have the hardest time ( i have more rc exp than most warios i play there every other ***** game). You guys believe u can never get grabbed so keep believing it. We ice climbers believe we can grab u 3 times minimum to win. All this theory talk is stupid cuz more than likely we will grab u more than 5 times but then we will mess up our infinites mayb 1-2 times.

lains right with me just pivot grab and u win. Dont need to be fancy and crap thats what gives wario more opportunities, but of course uair him if hes right above you.

Im done talking about this cuz im just talking in total sarcasm now lolol.

SDI dacus to grab.


Yes, its doable.


1)Learn it.
2)Use it.
3)????????
4)PROFIT!!!



BTW, pivot grab technically outranges dair and others, if you do it really on reaction, you should win.

 

[choknater]

i just dont like when wario runs away

so i spam uair which is pretty good

LOL omg i just realized wario vs ic's is just like ic's vs puff in melee

u gotta stop searching for grabs and spam a lot of uair (and dair in melee's case) but yea just fight them in the air cuz u can do it!!!

 

[PhantomX]

Naw man, all you gotta do is pivot grab on reaction and they'll run into it every time, 80:20 ics.

 

[choknater]

lol dang, ic <---------- amazing pun intended

 

[DMG]

Too bad you guys don't know about the Doppelganger. It's a Wario AT that makes it much more dangerous to try and grab him (dead serious, this isn't a joke post like PX's). I explained it a few months ago to Ankoku and the Shiek boards if you think I am kidding lol.

 

[swordgard]

Too bad you guys don't know about the Doppelganger. It's a Wario AT that makes it much more dangerous to try and grab him (dead serious, this isn't a joke post like PX's). I explained it a few months ago to Ankoku and the Shiek boards if you think I am kidding lol.

Link pleaseeee : )

 

[meepxzero]

wario wins 100:0 cuz we cant grab him and this doppleganger AT is on the verge of getting him banned lol.

 

[DMG]

Link pleaseeee : )

My original post on it was before summer started. I went to the Shiek boards cause they were discussing matchups and it was Wario's turn. A lot of them believed that Shiek could just Chain camp the entire match and win. To prove them wrong, Fiction offered to MM one of the Shiek players who was fairly proficient with the Chain, and Fiction won. Before that however, I explained why the Chain was not that big of a deal because of Doppelganger. It allows Wario to better deal with attacks that greatly out range him (doesn't work much vs Aerial attacks which is why Marth is still quite hard for Wario to beat). He can also use it to disrupt potential grabs as it gives him an additional hitbox (I use it mostly with Fsmash because of how fast it is and because it has weird super armor combinations possibly).

I've looked for my original post, can't find it on the Shiek boards and I don't wanna have to look back more than 6 months just to find one post lol, but I will try to find it.

wario wins 100:0 cuz we cant grab him and this doppleganger AT is on the verge of getting him banned lol.

Lol it's not 100:0 or 80:20 for either character obviously, and while Doppelganger IS quite useful, it is far from being OP.

 

[swordgard]

My original post on it was before summer started. I went to the Shiek boards cause they were discussing matchups and it was Wario's turn. A lot of them believed that Shiek could just Chain camp the entire match and win. To prove them wrong, Fiction offered to MM one of the Shiek players who was fairly proficient with the Chain, and Fiction won. Before that however, I explained why the Chain was not that big of a deal because of Doppelganger. It allows Wario to better deal with attacks that greatly out range him (doesn't work much vs Aerial attacks which is why Marth is still quite hard for Wario to beat). He can also use it to disrupt potential grabs as it gives him an additional hitbox (I use it mostly with Fsmash because of how fast it is and because it has weird super armor combinations possibly).

I've looked for my original post, can't find it on the Shiek boards and I don't wanna have to look back more than 6 months just to find one post lol, but I will try to find it.



Lol it's not 100:0 or 80:20 for either character obviously, and while Doppelganger IS quite useful, it is far from being OP.

IIt could be quite usefull if you told us wtf the doppelganger is. Else im going to have to deny everything your saying, because an argument based on trust is a weak one.

 

[DMG]

Ok basically it's kinda like a glitch you can do where you do an attack and buffer another thing (usually a dash, spotdodge, walking IS possible but extremely hard to do). What happens is that Wario has the attack hitbox out for it's normal duration while at the same time Wario is doing the action you buffer. This means he can have the Fsmash hitbox come out while he spot dodges. The attack you perform has the same audio cues as normal, comes out normal, but your next action is like as if you controlled a lighter colored Wario. Regular Wario will Fsmash/attack, and then your next action it's as if there was another Wario in the same spot but slightly faded/lighter doing whatever you buffered. If your attack "meshes" against the other Wario, the game will go back and forth between showing the lighter Wario and the Regular one.

So say you Fsmash and buffer the spotdodge right. You will see Wario lunge forward to do Fsmash, and after he moves forward you will see half to 3/4ths of another Wario that is fainter spinning near the middle to end of his spotdodge. The second one is technically you, the first one I have no idea what happens if you were to try and damage it (IDK if you would take damage or not if the "clone" got hit. I've seen him super armor some stuff with Fsmash, but I never paid attention to look at the damage meter to see if he took % for me)

As for the actions you can do with the Doppelganger, I've only been able to buffer spotdodges (pretty hard because you have to spotdodge before the full shield animation would come up), walks (EXTREMELY HARD to do), dashes, and one time I thought I buffered a jump although I hit with Fsmash on someone shielding near the end of a platform so it's possibly I just slid off and DJ'd after that.

 

[swordgard]

Ok basically it's kinda like a glitch you can do where you do an attack and buffer another thing (usually a dash, spotdodge, walking IS possible but extremely hard to do). What happens is that Wario has the attack hitbox out for it's normal duration while at the same time Wario is doing the action you buffer. This means he can have the Fsmash hitbox come out while he spot dodges. The attack you perform has the same audio cues as normal, comes out normal, but your next action is like as if you controlled a lighter colored Wario. Regular Wario will Fsmash/attack, and then your next action it's as if there was another Wario in the same spot but slightly faded/lighter doing whatever you buffered. If your attack "meshes" against the other Wario, the game will go back and forth between showing the lighter Wario and the Regular one.

So say you Fsmash and buffer the spotdodge right. You will see Wario lunge forward to do Fsmash, and after he moves forward you will see half to 3/4ths of another Wario that is fainter spinning near the middle to end of his spotdodge. The second one is technically you, the first one I have no idea what happens if you were to try and damage it (IDK if you would take damage or not if the "clone" got hit. I've seen him super armor some stuff with Fsmash, but I never paid attention to look at the damage meter to see if he took % for me)

As for the actions you can do with the Doppelganger, I've only been able to buffer spotdodges (pretty hard because you have to spotdodge before the full shield animation would come up), walks (EXTREMELY HARD to do), dashes, and one time I thought I buffered a jump although I hit with Fsmash on someone shielding near the end of a platform so it's possibly I just slid off and DJ'd after that.

If you ps fsmash, you can still grab at the end of spotdodge >.<.

 

[FrozenHobo]

we should discuss ganon. HE'S CRAZY! every one of his matchups is 100:0 ganon. seriously, he's even more epic than brawl falcon. Ganon v MK is just ridiculous. MK doesn't even stand a chance. i almost feel bad when i see a MK going into this matchup. he has to know that he doesn't stand a chance. sometimes people can just be sooooo stupid when it comes to picking their characters....

 

[momochuu]

This matchup seems to have run dry. I'm gonna put it down as 40:60 for now. If you guys think otherwise, give me good reasons to change it.

Next matchup is Marth. From now on, I'm not gonna do this in a week format if the matchup doesn't require for a week's discussion.

 

[Smasher89]

This is a strange matchup I´ve got a bit experience in, something that seems to work great for me is to move around alot and be fast and stick to the decisions made, powershield to grab is a grab.

Dtilt can scare him close to ledge to quick UP,b to get easily edgehogged/uaired/baired.

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm not a high-level Marth by any means, have some flaws, but I'm decent,

and to beat guys like me, you want to know the range on your moves. Nothing seems scarier that not knowing how to slash you with my sword without eating some kind of aerial, or eating a grab out of your fast back dash.

Threat of CG means Marth has to think differently about his specials... which are his ... umm... special tools. That let him be special.
... that came out wrong. Basically, all but super pro Marths that know him like the backs of their hands are going to at once feel pretty limited. They become nothing but the guy with Tippers. Psychology isn't part of matchups but this is definitely something you'll want to be playing.


Gimp the hell out of us (but don't let us even suicide with Nana 'cuz then you're proper $%&#d), and screw up the rhythm with Ice Blocks. Annoying as a broken fan.


Now I'll just wait over here to find out what better Marths than me say we can do. 9_9

 

[EverAlert]

In my experience...

This matchup is 100% spacing. If you **** up you'll take a lot of damage and Nana will probably die. If the Marth ****s up he gets chaingrabbed. It's all about spacing while trying to pressure/predict and create openings.

That said, Marth has better tools for spacing than us (srsly fair > blizzard), so it's Marth's advantage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think ICs have a slight advantage over Marth...

 

[Steel]

Marth being disadvantaged is impossible.

Marth can stay completely grounded and just dtilt and jab, you can't powershield it since nana would get hit. Once he lands a hit he can spring out his aggro game and with good spacing, the IC's don't have the tools to stop his onslaught. He's also really good at killing Nana once separated.

Still 6:4 marth imo

 

[l!nk_aut]

there is a possibility at marth being disadvantaged.

if they do a running powershield nana won´t get hit
desynch blizzard just like against metaknight (beware of a tippered nair)
punish the ending lag from smashes / side-b for a grab

 

[swordgard]

there is a possibility at marth being disadvantaged.

if they do a running powershield nana won´t get hit
desynch blizzard just like against metaknight (beware of a tippered nair)
punish the ending lag from smashes / side-b for a grab

Ahah, you got a couple of things in which others didnt mention.


Up-b out of blizz can kill/stop blizz though. Imo this really is 50-50.



Oh, and SDI vs side-b is tons effective. QCDI is awesome ; )

 

[Hylian]

Marth being disadvantaged is impossible.

Marth can stay completely grounded and just dtilt and jab, you can't powershield it since nana would get hit. Once he lands a hit he can spring out his aggro game and with good spacing, the IC's don't have the tools to stop his onslaught. He's also really good at killing Nana once separated.

Still 6:4 marth imo

Yeah um..I know how to power shield with both consistently lol. IC's certainly have the tools to stop his onslaught, though I think it's pretty even.

I went pretty even with haze, pretty much without chaingrabbing him because the screaming.

 

[Zero Hour]

I main both and although i have no actualy match-up experience i'll give this a shot.

Marth can get through a lot of ice climber's main defenses. De-syncing is rarely a good option if your fighting a marth who knows the match-up. Marth can just jab, Dtilt, and use retreating Fairs to avoid grabs. However the match-up isn't a complete loss for the IC's at all. I find squalls usefull for messing with marth's zoning. I also find that sliding shield grabs can be a fairly safe way to test the marth or get a grab, because if you sense danger you can roll away (if anyone knows how to avoid a blonde roll here please mention it.) Marth's recovery is easily gimped if you know it well. He can DB stall to run out your invince frames on the ledge, however it is punishable if used at the wrong time. And marth can gimp IC's recovery easyily if you recover low.. wich shouldn't happen very often anyway.

All in all i agree with the 6:4 ratio in marth's favor. He can separate the IC's easier then the IC's can get a grab.

Hope tht doesn't fail. =P

EDIT: also hylian, how do you powershield with both, i didn't know tht was possible XD

 

[choknater]

blizzard is amaaaazing in this matchup

but marth has good spacing stuff! and is fast

this matchup is pretty easy

he is really easy to cg lol

iono, how is marth gonna stop some random **** like run up blizz or run up usmash LMAO

im just kidding but yeah, the matchup seems 'easy' on both sides, which is probably what makes it so fun when 2 good players are playing it

 

[swordgard]

blizzard is amaaaazing in this matchup

but marth has good spacing stuff! and is fast

this matchup is pretty easy

he is really easy to cg lol

iono, how is marth gonna stop some random **** like run up blizz or run up usmash LMAO

im just kidding but yeah, the matchup seems 'easy' on both sides, which is probably what makes it so fun when 2 good players are playing it

Marth Up-Bs through your blizz, or nair tippers through it, or counters it.

 

[meepxzero]

marth has to work a lot harder to beat really good ic., but my opinions usually dont matter.

 

[swordgard]

marth has to work a lot harder to beat really good ic., but my opinions usually dont matter.

You know thats not true.


So everyone else but meep, whats your opinion on this?

XD

 

[r3d d09]

I think this matchup is difficult, I got some experience of this yesterday.

Marth just can play defense good and offense very well.

i can't remember who said it, but spacing is key in this. no doubt.

 

[momochuu]

Spacing is key in every matchup, haha. Marth moreso because most of his moves have almost as much range as Blizzard.

 

[Zero Hour]

marth has to work a lot harder to beat really good ic., but my opinions usually dont matter.

lol very true, the marth is going to be running around the stage like a mad man. I would just play it like a sopo game until he slips in the spacing then take his stock.

 

[choknater]

i am gonna agree with meep until i play a good marth lol

i wanna play zex

or go to socal

cuz honestly i havent had any trouble yet >_>

knowing how to beat melee marth have made all marth players easy in brawl for some reason

 

[r3d d09]

key to playing marth in brawl is to play melee marth? O.o

 

[choknater]

lol *shrug*

i had a lot harder time learning how to penetrate melee marth cuz his spacing dominated so hard

in brawl he was just slower and had less range, but a better offensive option in dancing blade

i just found it way easier to figure out (mostly with sheik lol)

cuz his moves are the same, just slower and less range than in melee, so i read most marth players like a book

which is why i wanna play zex/bardull/mikehaze/havok some day haha

 

[Teh Future]

Edit: ignot this post- no input from me

 

[BacklashMarth]

Marth has a lot of safe options vs IC no matter how they try and approach. Marths are gonna expect you to run into shield so they are gonna be extra safe about spacing. Remember, ICs dont have very long grab range so if they get even a miniscule amount of shieldpush from marth then they will whiff a grab and likely take a hit. Descyncs arent much of a problem either since its not like ICs outrange marth when they do it. As for chaingrabs, the ICs should be getting a grab at best as many times as marth will be killing nana (probably a bit less actually but w/e its just a estimate) and a dead nana usually means a stock off ICs. Marth has the advantage 60:40.

 

[feardragon64]

This could go either way imo. 55:45 Marth, 50:50, or 55:45 IC. Marth theoretically could win the spacing game but when he screws up it's a stock. That's why I say, if Marth plays a nearly perfect spacing game, it'll probably be closer to 55:45(really perfect might be 60:40). But the reality is the Marth player will always mess up his spacing at points and IC's will get a grab.

I'm going to go with 55:45 Marth because the MikeHaze scream is amazing.
50:50 if you're not screaming like Mike.

 

[Tin Man]

key to playing marth in brawl is to play melee marth? O.o

Melee Marth can combo and do other ridiculous things. Spacing is different, recovery is different, physics are different, mechanics are different, melee experience not needed is what I am trying to say

 

[r3d d09]

I glad someone commented on that, I think the kid just hasn't played a good marth. haha

 

[Lord Chair]

This could go either way imo. 55:45 Marth, 50:50, or 55:45 IC. Marth theoretically could win the spacing game but when he screws up it's a stock. That's why I say, if Marth plays a nearly perfect spacing game, it'll probably be closer to 55:45(really perfect might be 60:40). But the reality is the Marth player will always mess up his spacing at points and IC's will get a grab.

I'm going to go with 55:45 Marth because the MikeHaze scream is amazing.
50:50 if you're not screaming like Mike.

If you take it that way IC has no bad matchups.

'Because one mistake results in death'.

Why, that's the case in more matchups, and it sure as hell was like that in SSB64/Melee. Why don't we just make all those matchups 50-50 as well because if one player makes a mistake he's practically dead. /endsarcasm

Marth has his stuff on IC as well as IC has their stuff on Marth, Marth has a way easier time placing his stuff on the IC than the IC have placing their stuff on them. That's the basics of a bad match-up.

 

[Hylian]

It's also subjective and not the basics of the match-up at all lol.

 

[Prawn]

Protip: use moar desyncd iceblocks to punish landing lag