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Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee
- Thread starter Prawn
- Start date
meepxzero
Smash Master
<3 im probably gonna leave this thread alone. I think im pissing off bunny. Refer to the older match up thread if u want my input.
If you screamed at me dmg id probably laugh hysterically at you. Ive had people yell p*nis into my face. I only mess up cging if someone literally puts there hand infront of me because i use visual cues to cg.
If you screamed at me dmg id probably laugh hysterically at you. Ive had people yell p*nis into my face. I only mess up cging if someone literally puts there hand infront of me because i use visual cues to cg.
Just pivot grab Marth.
Diddyknight
Smash Lord
Spacing with Blizzard helps ^______^
choknater
Smash Obsessed
im the reason why i think marth can be easy is cuz hes an aggressive character
there are times where hes gonna mess up and we're gonna grab him
and he happens to be REALLY easy to cg, like, i dont mess up when i cg him, its easier than mk to me
and even if i do mess up, he's easy to edge guard and stuff
i mean, marth has some GREAT options, and im sure his metagame can still definitely increase against ic's. aggressive characters still have a chance, like mk and diddy if u figure out how to strategize it. marth has less tools because hes not as fast as mk or diddy, but im sure there are still ways he can win. marth camping is NOT gonna win this matchup, u cant do that. so marth players have to figure out ways to beat ic's with approaches, which is difficult since blizzard is right there
if only marth could run up and dtilt like he could in melee
that would be a great move to use
but fairs and stuff are still really good. marth should fair a lottttt in this match (i guess he does in every match)
there are times where hes gonna mess up and we're gonna grab him
and he happens to be REALLY easy to cg, like, i dont mess up when i cg him, its easier than mk to me
and even if i do mess up, he's easy to edge guard and stuff
i mean, marth has some GREAT options, and im sure his metagame can still definitely increase against ic's. aggressive characters still have a chance, like mk and diddy if u figure out how to strategize it. marth has less tools because hes not as fast as mk or diddy, but im sure there are still ways he can win. marth camping is NOT gonna win this matchup, u cant do that. so marth players have to figure out ways to beat ic's with approaches, which is difficult since blizzard is right there
if only marth could run up and dtilt like he could in melee
that would be a great move to usebut fairs and stuff are still really good. marth should fair a lottttt in this match (i guess he does in every match)
I pray the blizzard/uair/nair wall stuffs up timing once so I can like hit them with super nair (stupid last hit sweet spot) that will probably kill you guys from 100% fresh.
Marth may come to terms with using the fastest walk in the game to overcome ICs.
Being able to move as fast as he does at max speed walking (iirc it's only like 15% ? or something slower than his run) to any move, and having the ability to foxtrot away instantly could be something to go on.
However, in most cases Marth is going to need to be lucky to hit ICs through blizzard, I don't think dtilt or jab are able to; ftilt probably falls short...
**** it was only like a month ago that Neo was like "guys, yeah I lose, but Marth still wins the match up"
Marth may come to terms with using the fastest walk in the game to overcome ICs.
Being able to move as fast as he does at max speed walking (iirc it's only like 15% ? or something slower than his run) to any move, and having the ability to foxtrot away instantly could be something to go on.
However, in most cases Marth is going to need to be lucky to hit ICs through blizzard, I don't think dtilt or jab are able to; ftilt probably falls short...
**** it was only like a month ago that Neo was like "guys, yeah I lose, but Marth still wins the match up"
choknater
Smash Obsessed
eh, really? i guess so
if i was marth i'd be kinda scared of that move, but ic's kinda make themselves stuck in one spot with blizzard and i'd just wait for it to end
if i was marth i'd be kinda scared of that move, but ic's kinda make themselves stuck in one spot with blizzard and i'd just wait for it to end
r3d d09
Smash Master
yeah, everyone is stating the same stuff over and they know for a fact that it's been said. and just like you said. seems like some are just being kinda spammy, but not Meep <3
I agree with swordgard. Match-up is 6/4 ICs favour or maybe 55/45. Marth outranging Blizzard with fair doesn't mean too much it just means that ICs have to resort to gayer tactics like running away + Ice blocks. A SH/FH Blizzard still beats Marths Dtilt, which is his only safe ground move. ICs deal more damage and have a much easier time getting the KO too.
All of Marths options in this match-up are greatly limited as he can literally only use fair and nair. ICs only have 1 less option, which is not being able to use Blizzard against said moves but even then they have to be 100% perfectly spaced.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248669
Neo losing to Meep twice. Sure, it's not proof but it backs up the claims that ICs beat Marth. It's not the first time that he loses to Meeps ICs btw so yeah. Results aren't the end of all discussion I'm aware of that but if you have results on your side your argument still has more credibility especially when those results are consistent.
Match-up is def. in ICs favour.
Edit: this looks legit and useful vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-RHxha0VX4
All of Marths options in this match-up are greatly limited as he can literally only use fair and nair. ICs only have 1 less option, which is not being able to use Blizzard against said moves but even then they have to be 100% perfectly spaced.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248669
Neo losing to Meep twice. Sure, it's not proof but it backs up the claims that ICs beat Marth. It's not the first time that he loses to Meeps ICs btw so yeah. Results aren't the end of all discussion I'm aware of that but if you have results on your side your argument still has more credibility especially when those results are consistent.
Match-up is def. in ICs favour.
Edit: this looks legit and useful vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-RHxha0VX4
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ew lucario
annoying :C
i find this matchup really hard, i dunno bout yall
its hard to grab that fool
his range on his approach and fsmash, yeah
annoying :C
i find this matchup really hard, i dunno bout yall
its hard to grab that fool
his range on his approach and fsmash, yeah
r3d d09
Smash Master
I think this match you should never rely on a grab to win.
back to the basics.
back to the basics.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah but still. even then, the basics are hard because he outranges like everything
EverAlert
Smash Master
Iunno, I never really have trouble with Lucario, ever.
But of course there are no (good) Lucario players/mains here.
So iunno...
Range is a problem.
Lingering hitboxes are a problem.
Aura Sphere is not a problem.
Bad recovery.
Hard to hit, easily gimped.
But of course there are no (good) Lucario players/mains here.
So iunno...
Range is a problem.
Lingering hitboxes are a problem.
Aura Sphere is not a problem.
Bad recovery.
Hard to hit, easily gimped.
hang on wait, how do we beat marth? i seriously dont think it makes any sense. his fair comes out faster than nana's shield. this alone is worth putting it in his favor, not to mention a bunch of things already talked about. if you grab him he's doing something wrong.
and popo just need to dash in with powershield to get a grab, if Nana is at low % she will probably be able to run in for altgrabs...
Btw dtilt to quick edgehog is too good against marth too, even at low% sometimes...
if you can powershield and grab, then the marth is not spacing properly. the range on fair is huge and it is lagless; cant be punished with a grab unless hes a ******.
and if nana is at low %, then he probably is too, and should be able to bash out of the grab easily. unless, once again, he is a ******.
r3d d09
Smash Master
easy way to get damage on them fast and keep the grab is to Buffer a Dthrow a few times to five you enough time to start your alt throws. I do that against real players who can mash out instantly and lvl9 cpu's
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Wai- you guys are sneaky devils
I agree that IC is hilarious for lucario, I love dair, iirc it outranges uair (it certainly is faster) and like 90% of the time separates ICs (one flies one way, the other to, well, the other).
AS will only be used when edgeguarding in this MU though, blocks are too icky (although little known fact is that at high percents, lucario's AS charge when turned around will repel blocks, although not entirely helpful).
lingering hitboxes are also very nice (nana will get hit over and over again if you don't shield early, plus make lots of moves decently safe on block unless PS'd), plus low end lag/IASA on moves.
Really good gimping tools, fair -> fair (and after double jump -> fair -> fair)/dair is just too good. fair -> Nair will also be really good for continuing damage + pressure after getting an opening from approaching, and retreating nair will prevent nearly every retaliatory grab or rush-in. B-reversal ASC can also help make fair a less commited approach, but doing it too often could get you grabbed if read properly.
I do really think lucario will need to learn to DI/SDI some moves to maximize on opportunity (esp. with dair), but Lucario will want to use tilts, jabs, and aerials to his fullest extent, practically all lucario specials are nullified in this MU though lol. If lucario is going to make a grab ever in this MU, he's probably going to do fthrow, which is really, really fast, and will allow followups. IC's imo don't have all that great of killers for this MU. Imo this is 45:55 lucario's favor at absolute BEST for ICs, I think it's more in the 60:40 range, maaaaaybe 65:35, but I'm positive in 60:40.
Lucario's recovery breeds a bad misconception that it's completely garbage, and is false, especially if against a character who won't actively go offstage to gimp it with aerials. Arguably really good tools to get back (combine lingering, disjointed warding aerials, projectile that can kill and beats out AD, dair stall and a good second jump, and lucario won't need to use ES very much, especially if he DI's correctly). The biggest weakness in it is wallcling can be killed by FF bair/uair by most chars if fast enough, and startup lag, which if he's recovering from above, shouldn't be a big problem against ICs. The only issue I can see happening is if ICs get on the ball fast enough to get a grab on lucario after he goes onstage to recover, but that's if they can both get there fast enough from ledgehop.
Edit: acually, there is an opportunity for lucario to use AS, to punish occasional moves like blizzard (won't happen very often though) and obviously for killing/gimping. Lucario will use fair -> AS as a mixup for offstage.
I agree that IC is hilarious for lucario, I love dair, iirc it outranges uair (it certainly is faster) and like 90% of the time separates ICs (one flies one way, the other to, well, the other).
AS will only be used when edgeguarding in this MU though, blocks are too icky (although little known fact is that at high percents, lucario's AS charge when turned around will repel blocks, although not entirely helpful).
lingering hitboxes are also very nice (nana will get hit over and over again if you don't shield early, plus make lots of moves decently safe on block unless PS'd), plus low end lag/IASA on moves.
Really good gimping tools, fair -> fair (and after double jump -> fair -> fair)/dair is just too good. fair -> Nair will also be really good for continuing damage + pressure after getting an opening from approaching, and retreating nair will prevent nearly every retaliatory grab or rush-in. B-reversal ASC can also help make fair a less commited approach, but doing it too often could get you grabbed if read properly.
I do really think lucario will need to learn to DI/SDI some moves to maximize on opportunity (esp. with dair), but Lucario will want to use tilts, jabs, and aerials to his fullest extent, practically all lucario specials are nullified in this MU though lol. If lucario is going to make a grab ever in this MU, he's probably going to do fthrow, which is really, really fast, and will allow followups. IC's imo don't have all that great of killers for this MU. Imo this is 45:55 lucario's favor at absolute BEST for ICs, I think it's more in the 60:40 range, maaaaaybe 65:35, but I'm positive in 60:40.
Lucario's recovery breeds a bad misconception that it's completely garbage, and is false, especially if against a character who won't actively go offstage to gimp it with aerials. Arguably really good tools to get back (combine lingering, disjointed warding aerials, projectile that can kill and beats out AD, dair stall and a good second jump, and lucario won't need to use ES very much, especially if he DI's correctly). The biggest weakness in it is wallcling can be killed by FF bair/uair by most chars if fast enough, and startup lag, which if he's recovering from above, shouldn't be a big problem against ICs. The only issue I can see happening is if ICs get on the ball fast enough to get a grab on lucario after he goes onstage to recover, but that's if they can both get there fast enough from ledgehop.
Edit: acually, there is an opportunity for lucario to use AS, to punish occasional moves like blizzard (won't happen very often though) and obviously for killing/gimping. Lucario will use fair -> AS as a mixup for offstage.
Your wrong.Wai- you guys are sneaky devils
I agree that IC is hilarious for lucario, I love dair, iirc it outranges uair (it certainly is faster) and like 90% of the time separates ICs (one flies one way, the other to, well, the other).
AS will only be used when edgeguarding in this MU though, blocks are too icky (although little known fact is that at high percents, lucario's AS charge when turned around will repel blocks, although not entirely helpful).
lingering hitboxes are also very nice (nana will get hit over and over again if you don't shield early, plus make lots of moves decently safe on block unless PS'd), plus low end lag/IASA on moves.
Really good gimping tools, fair -> fair (and after double jump -> fair -> fair)/dair is just too good. fair -> Nair will also be really good for continuing damage + pressure after getting an opening from approaching, and retreating nair will prevent nearly every retaliatory grab or rush-in. B-reversal ASC can also help make fair a less commited approach, but doing it too often could get you grabbed if read properly.
I do really think lucario will need to learn to DI/SDI some moves to maximize on opportunity (esp. with dair), but Lucario will want to use tilts, jabs, and aerials to his fullest extent, practically all lucario specials are nullified in this MU though lol. If lucario is going to make a grab ever in this MU, he's probably going to do fthrow, which is really, really fast, and will allow followups. IC's imo don't have all that great of killers for this MU. Imo this is 45:55 lucario's favor at absolute BEST for ICs, I think it's more in the 60:40 range, maaaaaybe 65:35, but I'm positive in 60:40.
Lucario's recovery breeds a bad misconception that it's completely garbage, and is false, especially if against a character who won't actively go offstage to gimp it with aerials. Arguably really good tools to get back (combine lingering, disjointed warding aerials, projectile that can kill and beats out AD, dair stall and a good second jump, and lucario won't need to use ES very much, especially if he DI's correctly). The biggest weakness in it is wallcling can be killed by FF bair/uair by most chars if fast enough, and startup lag, which if he's recovering from above, shouldn't be a big problem against ICs. The only issue I can see happening is if ICs get on the ball fast enough to get a grab on lucario after he goes onstage to recover, but that's if they can both get there fast enough from ledgehop.
Edit: acually, there is an opportunity for lucario to use AS, to punish occasional moves like blizzard (won't happen very often though) and obviously for killing/gimping. Lucario will use fair -> AS as a mixup for offstage.
Its either even or in ice climbers favor.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
imo this is where most of IC's flaws come back to haunt them.
I can see desych stuff as really, really important in this MU, especially for getting kills, but getting outranged, outlived, and having lots of moves that are safe for lucario is not my idea of "near even".
Lots of IC tools are also really limited, esp. grabs (among the obvious), utilt, uair, Ice block, and maybe blizzard are somewhat confined to trying to wall/punish, but lucario fair, nair and dair (and fsmash, ftilt, and jab) are going to be mad safe in this MU. I really want to hear from those who've played Lee Martin/Trela/Zucco/(insert good lucario here), as most who've posted have probably played/have admitted that lucario's they've played seem pretty iffy. I really want to hear from the opposite side of the MU from some good ICs. Plus I want to hear rebuttals from those who disagree instead of "No U". Please, enlighten me, I'm interested in hearing how the MU is better as opposed to what it is and making brief statements. I think it's 60:40 for the above mentioned, why do you think it's even/in IC favor? This isn't just a mere matter that grab is near unviable, it's a matter of tools, benefits, and safety in this MU, plus outlasting/how well lucario can get nana/popo removed.
Edit: ...
I can see desych stuff as really, really important in this MU, especially for getting kills, but getting outranged, outlived, and having lots of moves that are safe for lucario is not my idea of "near even".
Lots of IC tools are also really limited, esp. grabs (among the obvious), utilt, uair, Ice block, and maybe blizzard are somewhat confined to trying to wall/punish, but lucario fair, nair and dair (and fsmash, ftilt, and jab) are going to be mad safe in this MU. I really want to hear from those who've played Lee Martin/Trela/Zucco/(insert good lucario here), as most who've posted have probably played/have admitted that lucario's they've played seem pretty iffy. I really want to hear from the opposite side of the MU from some good ICs. Plus I want to hear rebuttals from those who disagree instead of "No U". Please, enlighten me, I'm interested in hearing how the MU is better as opposed to what it is and making brief statements. I think it's 60:40 for the above mentioned, why do you think it's even/in IC favor? This isn't just a mere matter that grab is near unviable, it's a matter of tools, benefits, and safety in this MU, plus outlasting/how well lucario can get nana/popo removed.
Edit: ...
penguin_and_panda
Smash Apprentice
Lucario is one of my personal terrible match-ups because I never get used to his deceptive range. In terms of projectiles (ice block vs aura sphere), I would say ICs would have the upper hand because a full charges aura sphere can be negated by a ice clock and ice blocks are quite spamable, but so it aura sphere O.o
Moving on, IC approaches will be difficult due to lucario's longish range attacks but they could always wait for Lucario to approach them with their slight better projectile and shield grab and then it's game over. Lucario has a better aerial game by quite a bit (Lucario could take the game to the air)... Squall won't work to well (priority/range), blizzard will be quite useful. so.. yeah. I reackon its 45:50 lucario's way because of his longer range and superior air game. But ICs have grabs (of course) and better projectile. Sorry If I sound a bit like a noob because I am xD
Moving on, IC approaches will be difficult due to lucario's longish range attacks but they could always wait for Lucario to approach them with their slight better projectile and shield grab and then it's game over. Lucario has a better aerial game by quite a bit (Lucario could take the game to the air)... Squall won't work to well (priority/range), blizzard will be quite useful. so.. yeah. I reackon its 45:50 lucario's way because of his longer range and superior air game. But ICs have grabs (of course) and better projectile. Sorry If I sound a bit like a noob because I am xD
choknater
Smash Obsessed
can u tell us how to do it?
Yeah, I find lucario harder than MK >_>. Uair combos don't work on him, blizzard walls don't work, his fsmash is annoying, if he hits nana it's free fair combos for him till she dies...so many annoying things about lucario. I could see it being even, I just don't know how yet or what we are supposed to do exactly.
Teh Future
Smash Master
Lucario has no good approaches though besides rolling behind you from halfway across FD, which doesn't work. Im pretty sure we can make him approach just by spamming ice blocks which = getting grabbed
/theory
/theory
meepxzero
Smash Master
fight him regularly from 0-50%. Then only focus on grabbing at that percentage using blizzard/ice block setups and pray u dont mess up cging him.... Lucario is the ultimate test on ice climber skill imo because he can either be one of the easier or harder match-ups for ic. It all comes down to landing an infinite and not fuking up. Lucario at low percents should never kill you until ur 150%. This match up is all about paying attention to percentages and using his aura boost to your advantage and not against you (cg him at low percents).
I know its predictable to wait for grabs against lucario, but its the only solution. Most of his aerials can be shield or pivot grabbed if timed correctly (yea i always say pivot grab everything, but it really is THAT effective.)
Imo u should practice cging 3 chars in brawl which are mk/snake/lucario. It gives u a range from light, heavy, and mid. Lucario is one of those characters YOU HAVE TO practice cging otherwise ur making it harder for urself for this specific match up.
I may have lost to azen's lucario last time we played, but its only because i messed up cging which many ic mains will feel if they lose to lucario mains. If he ever enters a tourney again im not losing to it. >_>
60:40 ic if your prepared for the match up.
40:60 ic if your unprepared for the match up.
I know its predictable to wait for grabs against lucario, but its the only solution. Most of his aerials can be shield or pivot grabbed if timed correctly (yea i always say pivot grab everything, but it really is THAT effective.)
Imo u should practice cging 3 chars in brawl which are mk/snake/lucario. It gives u a range from light, heavy, and mid. Lucario is one of those characters YOU HAVE TO practice cging otherwise ur making it harder for urself for this specific match up.
I may have lost to azen's lucario last time we played, but its only because i messed up cging which many ic mains will feel if they lose to lucario mains. If he ever enters a tourney again im not losing to it. >_>
60:40 ic if your prepared for the match up.
40:60 ic if your unprepared for the match up.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
You Lie!
10urgoodbutunderestimatecharacterbuildseverelyandazenissemiretiredandonlywenttoonetourneywhenhereturned
More to follow, although I now think it's 55:45 lucario's favor-even.
Azen is also one of the most aggressive Lucario's I've ever seen AND played. That might not be the best way to approach the matchup (although he might have been camping you more Meep, but from what I have seen/experienced in the past with him, he's a bit aggressive.)
meepxzero
Smash Master
Ive played ksizzle in friendlies at SNES. He was winning them most of the time when we played at first, but once i got the infinite timing down i was beating him.
Azen doesnt play aggressive against me. Hell he even took me to cruise and i almost came back (messed up infinites twice the last stock) =\.
Im not saying we win or lose because he is one of the harder chars to cg like luigi. Im saying if ic dont mess up cging ic usually win. It all comes down to landing infinites perfectly. If you mess up at 130% than u can kinda kiss that stock good bye (u wont ever grab him again and hes gonna kill you in 3 hits), but if you land the infinite ~> kill lucario is at a huge disadvantage because he has to start over again at 0% with no aura boost.
Hes not that hard to grab. If your having trouble grabbing him u seriously need to step up ur ic grab game.
Azen doesnt play aggressive against me. Hell he even took me to cruise and i almost came back (messed up infinites twice the last stock) =\.
Im not saying we win or lose because he is one of the harder chars to cg like luigi. Im saying if ic dont mess up cging ic usually win. It all comes down to landing infinites perfectly. If you mess up at 130% than u can kinda kiss that stock good bye (u wont ever grab him again and hes gonna kill you in 3 hits), but if you land the infinite ~> kill lucario is at a huge disadvantage because he has to start over again at 0% with no aura boost.
Hes not that hard to grab. If your having trouble grabbing him u seriously need to step up ur ic grab game.
momochuu
Smash Legend
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I don't find Luigi or Lucario hard to CG at all. :x In fact, I think they're some of the easiest to CG. That's mostly personal preference.
This matchup isn't that hard for me, but I can see why it can be for others.
This matchup isn't that hard for me, but I can see why it can be for others.
penguin_and_panda
Smash Apprentice
The only reason I find this match up hard is a deceptive range. Other then that most of his attacks have fair amount of ending lag where you can rush in and grab. As meepxzero said you really don't want to mess up chain grabs at 130%.
So ICs are probably gonna camp until he approaches then shield grab/or makes an error then CG and hope you don't stuff up =]
So ICs are probably gonna camp until he approaches then shield grab/or makes an error then CG and hope you don't stuff up =]
r3d d09
Smash Master
So says the mysterious Thief
I hope to play some of this matchup in the OoS tourney i'm going to this weekend.
EDIT:
making others approach brings out routines in playing styles. after awhile, you will see a pattern. this is the best thing for IC's because noticing a pattern = a stock.
I hope to play some of this matchup in the OoS tourney i'm going to this weekend.
EDIT:
making others approach brings out routines in playing styles. after awhile, you will see a pattern. this is the best thing for IC's because noticing a pattern = a stock.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Okay, here's the deal:
1: Iceblock forces approach- This helps a lot in the MU. When you have both climbers, one will eat AS, the other will get lucario. Simple enough. The ability of this to work beyond forcing an approach is limited though if lucario takes the fight to the air.
2: Spaced dair is virtually unpunishable- This is normally a hard issue against a char with good grab range like D3, but ICs are terrible dealing with dair, it separates them in opposite directions in knockback, it outranges and outspeeds uair/utilt, and when on a platformed stage, is going to be a bugger to deal with, since it has enough range to connect from an immediate jump-> dair. Shield pressure of this move against ICs and the double hitbox of this move is crazy safe.
3: Ground moves: Good lucarios know that in this MU, they'll have to use them wisely. If fsmash somehow gets PS'd by both climbers without being properly spaced/strutterstepped, it's the lucario's fault completely. This move is pretty safe on block vs. ICs + has IASA frames, so it isn't punishable really at the end unless something outranges it outright (blizzard does this, though not very useful). ftilt is pretty much the same story, two hitboxes, FASTER than fsmash, nearly safer on block, and punishes the CPU climber unless you shield in anticipation, in which PS alone getting the grab is relinquished. Dair and ftilt alone are really, really good IC separators.
Offstage game: Lucario gimps solo IC really easily, and if there's an attempt to rescue offstage, lucario has the advantage. Dair makes this a strong reality, in conjunction with fair.
Nair autocancels, has a lingering hitbox, and has range + comes out of fair's IASA frames, making his landing much easier. Once again though, lucario + platforms = better chance at this MU.
1/2 gimp is nearly just as bad for IC as lucario getting infinited, safest MU for lucario to face, sopo gets outcamped (AS fires faster), out-ranged, out sped (ICs are probably the highest on the tier list that are overall slow framewise where it counts). Plus Lucario moves are safe on block, and solo dthrow CG hardly gives any gain.
Stages with platforms give lucario a ton of safety. uair is ICs most reliable reply to aerial harassment, and is once again, outranged and is slower.
If and when Lucario gets CG'd, if lucario can get a gimp (once again, some really good separator tools), he's back in.
Another thing, lucario gets killability vs. midweights as early as in the 100% range. Iirc, ICs are on the light side, and being behind one stock makes lucario more killworthy than what people make him out to be (for those who don't know, he gets a buff for when he's behind a stock), which gives him a decent 65% or so to have some killpower against ICs assuming they're in the 80% range or so.
Lucario has safe options, platform superiority, and good separating/gimp capability, plus longer ranged, lingering hitboxes make for safer moves on shield + are icky against Nana. I don't see how this is IC favor, I'm sorry, let alone 60:40.
Another note: Fair will not be used close to the ground, it has landing lag, I'm getting implications that people haven't seen lucario zone effectively once within SH distance. In a very crude sense of the MU, it's like Lucario has traded a little less range and speed for more safeness on block.
Blizzard is going to help a bit, as are Ice blocks, and pivot grab.
Edit: I can now see it possibly being in ICs favor. I kind of get where Meep is going with this, and with the neutrals on hand, I'd say it's 50:50. The fact that lucario is hard to grab is negated a bit by the fact that he takes a long time to kill. I also think that whoever gets the first stock/if lucario gimps one/if ICs infinite (or miss) determines a whoooole ton of who wins the MU. Meep has been approaching this correctly, minus the pluses of lucario's game.
1: Iceblock forces approach- This helps a lot in the MU. When you have both climbers, one will eat AS, the other will get lucario. Simple enough. The ability of this to work beyond forcing an approach is limited though if lucario takes the fight to the air.
2: Spaced dair is virtually unpunishable- This is normally a hard issue against a char with good grab range like D3, but ICs are terrible dealing with dair, it separates them in opposite directions in knockback, it outranges and outspeeds uair/utilt, and when on a platformed stage, is going to be a bugger to deal with, since it has enough range to connect from an immediate jump-> dair. Shield pressure of this move against ICs and the double hitbox of this move is crazy safe.
3: Ground moves: Good lucarios know that in this MU, they'll have to use them wisely. If fsmash somehow gets PS'd by both climbers without being properly spaced/strutterstepped, it's the lucario's fault completely. This move is pretty safe on block vs. ICs + has IASA frames, so it isn't punishable really at the end unless something outranges it outright (blizzard does this, though not very useful). ftilt is pretty much the same story, two hitboxes, FASTER than fsmash, nearly safer on block, and punishes the CPU climber unless you shield in anticipation, in which PS alone getting the grab is relinquished. Dair and ftilt alone are really, really good IC separators.
Offstage game: Lucario gimps solo IC really easily, and if there's an attempt to rescue offstage, lucario has the advantage. Dair makes this a strong reality, in conjunction with fair.
Nair autocancels, has a lingering hitbox, and has range + comes out of fair's IASA frames, making his landing much easier. Once again though, lucario + platforms = better chance at this MU.
1/2 gimp is nearly just as bad for IC as lucario getting infinited, safest MU for lucario to face, sopo gets outcamped (AS fires faster), out-ranged, out sped (ICs are probably the highest on the tier list that are overall slow framewise where it counts). Plus Lucario moves are safe on block, and solo dthrow CG hardly gives any gain.
Stages with platforms give lucario a ton of safety. uair is ICs most reliable reply to aerial harassment, and is once again, outranged and is slower.
If and when Lucario gets CG'd, if lucario can get a gimp (once again, some really good separator tools), he's back in.
Another thing, lucario gets killability vs. midweights as early as in the 100% range. Iirc, ICs are on the light side, and being behind one stock makes lucario more killworthy than what people make him out to be (for those who don't know, he gets a buff for when he's behind a stock), which gives him a decent 65% or so to have some killpower against ICs assuming they're in the 80% range or so.
Lucario has safe options, platform superiority, and good separating/gimp capability, plus longer ranged, lingering hitboxes make for safer moves on shield + are icky against Nana. I don't see how this is IC favor, I'm sorry, let alone 60:40.
Another note: Fair will not be used close to the ground, it has landing lag, I'm getting implications that people haven't seen lucario zone effectively once within SH distance. In a very crude sense of the MU, it's like Lucario has traded a little less range and speed for more safeness on block.
Blizzard is going to help a bit, as are Ice blocks, and pivot grab.
Edit: I can now see it possibly being in ICs favor. I kind of get where Meep is going with this, and with the neutrals on hand, I'd say it's 50:50. The fact that lucario is hard to grab is negated a bit by the fact that he takes a long time to kill. I also think that whoever gets the first stock/if lucario gimps one/if ICs infinite (or miss) determines a whoooole ton of who wins the MU. Meep has been approaching this correctly, minus the pluses of lucario's game.
Prawn
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
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