Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

PhantomX · Sep 27, 2009

LOL, you think Sonic is GIMPABLE!? What planet are you living on?

Spring, Spinshot, Homing Attack, Walljumps, you name it. He can recover in tons of ways.

Also, Sonic is one of the characters who is safest against shields.

FrozenHobo · Sep 27, 2009

no national ones. teh umby would be the most notable i can think of, but he switched to maining marth. i've also played some other sonics both in GA and Florida.

the first sonic i lost to fought me to a sudden death on BF and almost 2 stocked me on SV. less than a month later i play him again and i 3 stock him by timing everything he does and landing a grab on everything.

seriously, powersheild his neutral b, desync blizzard for his approaches and grabbing anything else.

he has no projectiles and 2 kill moves. he has to approach you to deal damage and you can camp him for as long as you need to.

certain stages like FD, SV, YI i would agree that the matchup is 55:45 due to the long stretches of land and his ability to quickly use the platforms, but stages like BF/ most stages with platforms can be camped very effectively.

r3d d09 · Sep 27, 2009

the definition of sonic is recovery. haha

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

FrozenPopo said:
no national ones. teh umby would be the most notable i can think of, but he switched to maining marth. i've also played some other sonics both in GA and Florida.

the first sonic i lost to fought me to a sudden death on BF and almost 2 stocked me on SV. less than a month later i play him again and i 3 stock him by timing everything he does and landing a grab on everything.

seriously, powersheild his neutral b, desync blizzard for his approaches and grabbing anything else.

he has no projectiles and 2 kill moves. he has to approach you to deal damage and you can camp him for as long as you need to.

certain stages like FD, SV, YI i would agree that the matchup is 55:45 due to the long stretches of land and his ability to quickly use the platforms, but stages like BF/ most stages with platforms can be camped very effectively.

Sorry just...no. You can't understand until you play a sonic like Espy how many options that character has. It sounds like you don't even know what spinshotting is lol sonic has one of the best recoveries in the game and is not gimpable in the slightest. He moves so fast you cannot pivot grab on reaction most of the time and he has like 20 different things he can do to your shield that are safe. He gets around walls faster than almost any other character and since nana doesn't di gets free insane combos on her and splits up the climbers easily. He doesn't need kill moves he just needs to gimp nana which he's very good at.

You'll see with the videos.

meepxzero · Sep 28, 2009

Hylian said:
He moves so fast you cannot pivot grab on reaction most of the time and he has like 20 different things he can do to your shield that are safe.

false
10 pivot grabs

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

meepxzero said:
false
10 pivot grabs

Or...not false.

And before you say you've played Malcom, so have I, and I beat him 2-0 because he had no idea what to do against Climbers.

Wait till you see the videos of me playing espy.

meepxzero · Sep 28, 2009

Hylian said:
Or...not false.

And before you say you've played Malcom, so have I, and I beat him 2-0 because he had no idea what to do against Climbers.

Wait till you see the videos of me playing espy.

ive played shugo, wes, and i have a ton of sonics in my region (sonic master beat chu?). Im not saying the match up is easy, but u can pivot grab spindash outta reaction. Sonic can jump out of it early to avoid it, but if sonic has a constant fear of spindashing into ur grab its totally at ur advantage (fear factor).

Just remember to ban yoshi against sonic. He has weird glitchy traits on that stage where he can spindash through anything u do even blizzard.

edit: Sorry you can pivot grab anyone out of anything with PERFECT timing. I just pivot grabbed a snake outta ftilt this weekend. Needless to say it was the funniest thing ive ever seen because the hurt box got extended so far.

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

meepxzero said:
ive played shugo, wes, and i have a ton of sonics in my region (sonic master beat chu?). Im not saying the match up is easy, but u can pivot grab spindash outta reaction. Sonic can jump out of it early to avoid it, but if sonic has a constant fear of spindashing into ur grab its totally at ur advantage (fear factor).

Just remember to ban yoshi against sonic. He has weird glitchy traits on that stage where he can spindash through anything u do even blizzard.

edit: Sorry you can pivot grab anyone out of anything with PERFECT timing. I just pivot grabbed a snake outta ftilt this weekend.

Yes you can pivot grab sonic out of spindash and anyone out of anything that isn't disjointed or transcendent I know. I'm saying they can do it so you don't have enough time to pivot grab before they are hitting your shield and they can bait pivot grabs easily and punish you. It's not so simple.

I've played all the East Coast sonics, and the ones in California, and they don't really compare to Espy.

And you are talking about his invincible spindash on yoshis. Yes, always ban yoshis vs them.

lain · Sep 28, 2009

I've played Shugo who is no doubt the best at fighting climbers with Sonic (and the best sonic).

You can pivot grab Sonic out of him approaching you the wrong way (spin shot and w/e). If your matches didn't go to 8 minutes every game, Hylian, then that Sonic was playing the completely wrong way.

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

lain said:
I've played Shugo who is no doubt the best at fighting climbers with Sonic (and the best sonic).

You can pivot grab Sonic out of him approaching you the wrong way (spin shot and w/e). If your matches didn't go to 8 minutes every game, Hylian, then that Sonic was playing the completely wrong way.

How can you honestly say Shugo is the best sonic?

I don't say Espy is the best sonic because I haven't played shugo, but shugo is the ONLY sonic I haven't played and Espy far outclasses all the other sonics. You haven't played Espy.

Also, yes sonic can run after he kills nana. He doesn't need to though. Shugo does that because he doesn't understand the match-up imo. I've watched you two play.

And spin shotting is not really an approach. Or one used on the ground anyways.'

Edit:

Just to give an idea of how good espy is with sonic..I'm sure you all know how good mikehaze is:

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r3d d09 · Sep 28, 2009

Sonic is just a BA

__X__ never goes to YI, I'd basically CP BF, just because the platforms will help you. wait for a SDJ, predict it and grab him.

EDIT: wait, from the video of espy and Mike, and you say mike is good??????

No way. I think mike is a bk from the looks of that video

in conclusion. Espy is a beastly sonic. and you're not playing good sonic players. nuff said.

momochuu · Sep 28, 2009

You guys make Sonic sound like the coolest ****ing character.

How can ICs bait Sonic? If he gets a lead, he can avoid you REALLY easily. =/

lain · Sep 28, 2009

....What the hell are you talking about Hylian? Sonic running away is gay as hell.

And from my perspective, I've played all the other sonics too, and I KNOW Shugo is the best from that. I'm pretty sure I played Espy at some point when I was in Texas.

Sonic doesn't HAVE to run away, but he can and that's what's important. He can do it REALLY ****ing well vs IC.

momochuu · Sep 28, 2009

red dog, mike haze is good. I just watched that video. Espy doesn't like.....completely blow Shugo and whatever other good Sonics (MalcolmM I'm guessing) out of the water. I think lain's experience playing Shugo could be just as good, if not better than playing Espy.

r3d d09 · Sep 28, 2009

Nya~! :3 said:
red dog, mike haze is good. I just watched that video. Espy doesn't like.....completely blow Shugo and whatever other good Sonics (MalcolmM I'm guessing) out of the water. I think lain's experience playing Shugo could be just as good, if not better than playing Espy.

i was just teasing. i know he is one of the best marths in the world. i was just teasing silly. you should know my humor by now KB. >.>

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

lain said:
....What the hell are you talking about Hylian? Sonic running away is gay as hell.

And from my perspective, I've played all the other sonics too, and I KNOW Shugo is the best from that. I'm pretty sure I played Espy at some point when I was in Texas.

Sonic doesn't HAVE to run away, but he can and that's what's important. He can do it REALLY ****ing well vs IC.

I don't believe you ever played him at whobo. I knocked espy out of losers at Whobo. Besides, that was awhile ago.

You can't KNOW shugo is the best. You need to play espy. I used to think Malcom was the best until I played and beat him. I don't claim to know that espy is the best sonic even though I think he is because I haven't played shugo. You're not being logical. And I'm pretty sure Espy has tournament wins over bigger names than Shugo does.

And I know sonic running away is gay as hell trust me. It's just another thing sonic can do to IC's making it an even match-up. I'm saying sonic has more options then that though that he can use, he doesn't have to rely on one strategy. Versatility will take you a long way in a match-up.

meepxzero · Sep 28, 2009

shugo was the best sonic i played thus far and probably wes. But i dont wanna count wes cuz we were just playin friendlies and d1cking around. The way he played lain in the recent vids i saw he learned not to spindash into pivot grab anymore :laugh:

hylian shugo actually has ic practice with lain and me. I played him in a buncha friendlies (if i remember?) at the hotel then we had to play in pools again LOL @ SNES

lain · Sep 28, 2009

Yeah I'm pretty sure Shugo would wreck any IC player who doesn't know what they **** they should really be doing.

I do agree, Sonic can do other things in this matchup besides run away, but it's easier to do that. *shrugs*

I personally think the only good sonic is Shugo,

oh BTW I just watched the match. I didn't know Mikehaze getting baired twice for free and then recovering dumb against Espy in a friendly made Espy the best

Shugo's done WAY more impressive things tournament-wise (as in, where it matters) then any other Sonic I've seen.

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

lain said:
Yeah I'm pretty sure Shugo would wreck any IC player who doesn't know what they **** they should really be doing.

I do agree, Sonic can do other things in this matchup besides run away, but it's easier to do that. *shrugs*

I personally think the only good sonic is Shugo,

oh BTW I just watched the match. I didn't know Mikehaze getting baired twice for free and then recovering dumb against Espy in a friendly made Espy the best Shugo's done WAY more impressive things tournament-wise (as in, where it matters) then any other Sonic I've seen.

What has shugo done tournament wise? Espy has beaten players like Roy_R and Infinity(when he played and was good) in tournament as well as melee1, and a lot of other really good players taking razer to last game last hit, doing well against dojo...tons of stuff.

And I never said espy was the best. I said I think he's the best but will refrain from claiming so when I haven't played Shugo. That was also just an example, there are plenty more friendlies espy won that I could show you, but they are just friendlies so why bother? The point I was trying to make was that you are ignorant in reguards to espys skill so your claims that shugo is better are baseless. You haven't played Espy. You can't just discredit people so fast.

Anyways, you haven't even posted your thoughts on the match-up. This is getting off topic. Sonic vs IC's is even or slight advantage to IC's imo.

swordgard · Sep 28, 2009

lain said:
Yeah I'm pretty sure Shugo would wreck any IC player who doesn't know what they **** they should really be doing.

I do agree, Sonic can do other things in this matchup besides run away, but it's easier to do that. *shrugs*

I personally think the only good sonic is Shugo,

oh BTW I just watched the match. I didn't know Mikehaze getting baired twice for free and then recovering dumb against Espy in a friendly made Espy the best Shugo's done WAY more impressive things tournament-wise (as in, where it matters) then any other Sonic I've seen.

So im wondering, why does it always turn out meep and lain vs hylian, with meep and lain obviously placing higher but somehow hylians opinion is worth more to these boards.

Seriously, meep and lain are right on this one, and on the wario one too.

6-4 for ice climbers imo if not around 6.5-3.5 . Yes sonic can run and everything, its still a hard matchup for him. He needs to play much better than the ice climber player to win.

Hylian said:
You can't just discredit people so fast.

Hylian, 17th at hobo 18th, MK banned tourney.

There i just did.

Prawn · Sep 28, 2009

swordgard said:
Hylian, 17th at hobo 18th, MK banned tourney.

There i just did.

**** just got real.

meepxzero · Sep 28, 2009

lol ouch....

swordgard makes a point. I always look at the match-up from the other chars perspective assuming im playing an ice climber whos proficient with grabbing and doesnt mess up infinites a 100% of the time. I know its dumb thinking i can play the other char, but i do it in my head not physically. I know what sonic can and cant do. His spindash game is completely nullified and what he relies on most cant ever be used against ic. Then it always comes to my mind *** this match up is not gonna be easy regardless as sonic.

Its 60:40 ic in my book. People not familar with it but can infinite well its 50:50.

lain · Sep 28, 2009

****. JUST. GOT. REAl.

Prawn · Sep 28, 2009

PhantomX · Sep 28, 2009

It's good that you guys are taking placement in tournaments as an indicator of knowledge, b/c they're totally related. I mean, Infinity was third in our state, and didn't even know what buffering was. Obviously he's also a better source of info than Hylian, b/c he'd place higher!

You have to realize at some point in time that you guys are taking advice from someone who said both that only ICs can pivot grab MK out of tornado and that Einstein invented the light bulb

Prawn · Sep 28, 2009

PhantomX said:
Einstein invented the light bulb

THIS IS PRETTY RELEVANT.

I'm sorry but even as a TERRIBLE Ice Climber main I can still say Meep and Lain are miles above anyone else.

PhantomX · Sep 28, 2009

It's as relevant as placings with respect to how much you know about the game.

They are both great players because they can read their opponents and notice their patterns quickly and then punish. This means nothing with respect to how much their knowledge compares to that of another. People need to WAKE THE **** UP and notice that "PREDICT YOUR OPPONENT AND GRAB THEM" has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH A MATCHUP. Someone tries to give constructive advice and people ignore it for **** like that.

I would be less adamant about this if it wasn't for the fact that I had a similar experience with DMG and Wario advice.

Funen1 · Sep 28, 2009

The only notable Sonic I've played in tournament was Wes, back at Viridian 5. I lost, but that's due more to my lack of skill/match-up experience (at the time). Based on what I saw, he tried pretty hard not to get grabbed, and for the most part pulled it off (I did grab him twice, but messed both up early). Near the end of the second match, however, I started catching on to his playstyle and was able to stop some of his approaches with some pretty simple moves (it was too little too late, but you get the idea).

Sonic may be hard to grab, he has a bunch of moves that are safe on block (these tend to involve him getting behind the Climbers after the hitbox ends), and he has some tools with which to separate and gimp Nana. But at the same time his moves aren't nearly as destructive as the ICs'. They're such low priority that even something as simple as jabs can knock him out of approaches (this is what I started doing in that second match above). Even if he runs away, the ICs have desynch combos for flat stages (keep in mind that his aerial movement speed isn't nearly the fastest) and Up-airs for platform assaults (though I hear Sonics don't like platforms), and in general they have more potential for damage-dealing than Sonic does, provided you remain wise about what he's trying to do. Sonic is a mid-weight (0.985 times Mario's weight), so CGing is only slightly faster than the standard for Mario. CGing would also be the best way to get your kills, as Sonic does not die off the side as easily as you think (mid-weight plus great recovery). Overall, I'd say the match-up is in the Ice Climbers' favor, though not by a whole lot - Sonic has enough ways to effectively fight them that he can still stand a chance. No more than 60:40 in my opinion.

Prawn · Sep 28, 2009

How do placings NOT represent how much you know about a game >_<

They're almost directly related if you're comparing the placings of nationals/large regionals.

PhantomX · Sep 28, 2009

You don't have to know more than someone else to beat them at this game. Brawl is like a glorified dumbed-down, high-speed game of chess, where your pieces are more or less stacked depending on character choice (i.e. playing with Ganon is like having all pawns, while playing with MK is akin to having 3 or 4 queens). Sure, you have to have some good understanding of the game in order to predict your opponent, but you don't need to understand it as much as someone else in order to beat them or do better than them.

This is the point I'm trying to drive into people, b/c disregarding knowledgeable opinions based on placement is ********. You could know absolutely everything there is to know about a game in practice and in theory, but just never win because you are terrible at handling pressure, or fatigue easily, or don't have the necessary tech skill. People here would disregard his opinion just b/c he's not winning, which, once again, is bull****.

FrozenHobo · Sep 28, 2009

but if you're winning, doesn't that have some indication that you may know what you're doing, and subsequently might be able to have more accurate input than someone who has trouble at the matchup? you can know everything there is to know about the game, but if you can't implement it, then how can you test your knowledge to know if you are actually correct in your assessments? i feel more confident trusting the judgement of people who consistently place high in tourneys and who have both a strong grasp of the character and how to use that character against other characters.

true, hylian does not place top as consistently as meep or lain and that is no reason to disregard his comments, but i trust the judgement of top players like lain/meep over him simply for the fact that they can actually implement strategies against other characters and place high due to their experience.

momochuu · Sep 28, 2009

swordgard stop being a ****ing *******.

FrozenHobo · Sep 28, 2009

Nya~! :3 said:
swordgard stop being a ****ing *******.

off topic, but what word is "*******"? fill in a couple letters so i can see.

momochuu · Sep 28, 2009

***hole .

Back to the matchup please. >_> And listen to PhantomX, please. When covering a matchup it's important to listen to everyone, not just your top players and discredit everything else.

PhantomX · Sep 28, 2009

FrozenPopo said:
but if you're winning, doesn't that have some indication that you may know what you're doing, and subsequently might be able to have more accurate input than someone who has trouble at the matchup? you can know everything there is to know about the game, but if you can't implement it, then how can you test your knowledge to know if you are actually correct in your assessments? i feel more confident trusting the judgement of people who consistently place high in tourneys and who have both a strong grasp of the character and how to use that character against other characters.

true, hylian does not place top as consistently as meep or lain and that is no reason to disregard his comments, but i trust the judgement of top players like lain/meep over him simply for the fact that they can actually implement strategies against other characters and place high due to their experience.

This would be a good argument if they said something of substance. If they know things, they certainly don't let on that they do. I never said they don't know, I just said you guys are disregarding Hylian's attempts at constructive input just because he isn't meep or lain, who haven't really said much of anything. I also already gave reasons why someone who might know more than another person doesn't place as well

DMG used to outplace me a lot at tournaments b/c I would sandbag singles; it used to bore me. Fiction is a better player than myself but even he consents that I know more about Wario than he does.

Also, Bunny's word contains the word "hole" in it.

FrozenHobo · Sep 28, 2009

Nya~! :3 said:
***hole .

so why did you edit out the 'hole' part?

edit: @ PhantomX:
i can't speak for lain and meep and if i did they would probably tell me i was misinterpreting something, so i'll let them comment on their opinions.

Hylian · Sep 28, 2009

Espy Rose · Sep 28, 2009

meepxzero said:
ive played shugo, wes, and i have a ton of sonics in my region (sonic master beat chu?). Im not saying the match up is easy, but u can pivot grab spindash outta reaction. Sonic can jump out of it early to avoid it, but if sonic has a constant fear of spindashing into ur grab its totally at ur advantage (fear factor).

Chu decimated SonicMaster5 in loser's bracket.

And pivot grabbing out of reaction? That doesn't make that much sense. It gives me the assumption that when they spin dash or spin charge at you that a pivot grab is all it takes, disregarding the handful of options Sonic has during the attack (correct me if I'm wrong). Sonic can shield cancel the Spin charge (leading to options like spot dodge, dodge roll, and jump oos), iSDJ both the spin charge and the spin dash, Spinshot both, SDJ both, turn around, roll straight toward you, or hell, if you're honestly going to expect them to release it right away...

...they can just HOLD it and wait for you to approach. A good Sonic isn't trapped if they're stuck in the charging stages of a spin dash or spin charge.

I'll give you a hint, only ~2-3 out of 7 of those choices have a risk of pivot grabbing.

Oh, and did I mention that one of the spins has invincibility on the initial hop? I'm pretty sure I did.

lain said:
I'm pretty sure I played Espy at some point when I was in Texas.

Sonic doesn't HAVE to run away, but he can and that's what's important. He can do it REALLY ****ing well vs IC.

No. The ONLY time you played me at WHOBO back in APRIL was in a teams match. It was You and CO18 vs. Zori and myself in regular teams, and Zori and I won.

And why any Sonic would ever run away and camp is beyond me- unless they are winning and there's only several seconds left. Sonic's defensive game is nowhere near as good as his offensive capabilities, at least, in my opinion (especially so against the Ice Climbers, who happen to have a projectile and several attacks that dwarf Sonic's own attacks in range.

meepxzero · Sep 28, 2009

PX you have to understand me and lain play ic on a completely different level than say hylian or anyone else. Lain is just an overall smarter player than me and im like the total opposite where im technically really good with ic.

Me and lain will just give a straight up answer and tell you key things to do. I always say pivot grab because duh it works, but yea you have to perfect how to use it to take its full advantage (have a good idea how far the hurt box actually extends).

No one has to listen to us, but if we say something is wrong its usually wrong.

swordgard · Sep 28, 2009

Nya~! :3 said:
swordgard stop being a ****ing *******.

I cant believe you gave me an infraction for trolling on my last post.

Trolling (intentionally instigating trouble or provoking others through outrageous statements) is not permitted.

Outrageous statements? I did not give out any, i just quoted his tourney placing. His placing, his fault. I simply proved him wrong. Stop being so subjective, what YOU just did was trolling. I even gave out my matchup opinion.

The problem in this matchup is sonic has trouble matching your survival rate. Meep is right though, you guys are always assuming you wont get the grab, but a good ics will.

Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

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