Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[lain]

Go ahead Hylian. Post all my bad results from this year.

... oh wait... It looks here like I have WAYYYYYYY less bad placings then you do, while having attended WAY more tournaments, while having beaten WAY more players (literally ****ing everyone at least once).

Look, Hylian. You're 2nd place was great, but there was ONLY Santi and PX there. I'm happy you got 2nd, trust me. But you can't just win (or place high in for that matter) some tourney with almost no one notable there and then make a bunch of claims and try and discredit people that are better then you.

I'm not being a elitist or demanding anything, I just want to put out my thoughts on the character and answer questions and truly let people know that I'm not some random idiot just saying stuff. I'm saying useful, factual information.

And why do I do that? Because I've traveled across the nation (and Canada) and played against literally everyone, coupled with the fact that I place well + beat good well known people all the time--which would lead you to believe that I know what I'm talking about.

 

[lain]

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I could easily post lain and meeps bad placings, but I'm not going to because it's pointless and childish. It's sad that you would discredit someone trying to contribute because they aren't as good as lain/meep. The thoughts people have about top players are amazing. You guys are never going to reach anywhere near their level if you view people as gods.

Oh, and compare that set, with this set:

Match 1
Match 2lol
Match 3

and tell me which one had more overall skill in it from the Sonic. Who was playing smarter?

 

[Hylian]

Go ahead Hylian. Post all my bad results from this year.

... oh wait... It looks here like I have WAYYYYYYY less bad placings then you do, while having attended WAY more tournaments, while having beaten WAY more players (literally ****ing everyone at least once).

Look, Hylian. You're 2nd place was great, but there was ONLY Santi and PX there. I'm happy you got 2nd, trust me. But you can't just win (or place high in for that matter) some tourney with almost no one notable there and then make a bunch of claims and try and discredit people that are better then you.

I'm not being a elitist or demanding anything, I just want to put out my thoughts on the character and answer questions and truly let people know that I'm not some random idiot just saying stuff. I'm saying useful, factual information.

And why do I do that? Because I've traveled across the nation (and Canada) and played against literally everyone, coupled with the fact that I place well + beat good well known people all the time--which would lead you to believe that I know what I'm talking about.

Way to completely miss my point. I said posting placements was pointless. I haven't been trying to discredit anyone, that's what YOU guys are doing. And you guys AREN'T providing useful factual information which is why I'm getting upset. I wouldn't care if you guys were contributing but instead you just ride your placements with little to say about actual match-ups. Look over your posts. You haven't even said what you think about Sonic vs IC's yet. No one is discrediting you or calling you a random idiot you two just ARE being elitest.

And I travel just as much as you do Lain. I've been to every region for tournaments and travel 3-4 hours inside my own state all the time for tournaments. No, I'm not as good as you and I've never claimed anything of the sort. I do have experience against all the top players as well though from every region.

It's frustrating because I'm trying to provide useful information, back it up with videos and logical match-up discussion and it just gets refuted by placements with no regards to the content. No one is learning anything when meep says to pivot grab everything.

Edit:

Also, I don't think it's smart at all to run away from ic's with a 10% lead the whole match considering how much damage their moves do. Running away with 6 minutes left from one climber isn't smart either. As shown in both vidoes. It just gives IC's free damage.

Also unrelated to me talking to lain heres another video, this ones funny as ****:
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[Firestormzero0]

lol everyone should be listening to me. cuz secretly i am the best IC player ever and nobody can even touch my skillz!! You guys just dont know it yet cuz you guys have not seen me play. lol jk jk :D ill just stick with being the best in kansas (for now)

 

[swordgard]

Go ahead Hylian. Post all my bad results from this year.

... oh wait... It looks here like I have WAYYYYYYY less bad placings then you do, while having attended WAY more tournaments, while having beaten WAY more players (literally ****ing everyone at least once).

Look, Hylian. You're 2nd place was great, but there was ONLY Santi and PX there. I'm happy you got 2nd, trust me. But you can't just win (or place high in for that matter) some tourney with almost no one notable there and then make a bunch of claims and try and discredit people that are better then you.

I'm not being a elitist or demanding anything, I just want to put out my thoughts on the character and answer questions and truly let people know that I'm not some random idiot just saying stuff. I'm saying useful, factual information.

And why do I do that? Because I've traveled across the nation (and Canada) and played against literally everyone, coupled with the fact that I place well + beat good well known people all the time--which would lead you to believe that I know what I'm talking about.

Right now, lain is definitely the one with the most good placings out there, being mad consistent overall(sometimes he loses quickly in winners randomly but makes it back in losers), followed by meep, they are at the top of the metagame and play on a completely different level than other ice climbers. Yes, we can argue, all im saying is right now hylian seems to be getting a whole lot of backup from other people from texas which makes his points seem more "valid", but hylian simply does not play on the same level as the 2 others do. They also most probably have a better understanding of the matchups than he does.


EDIT: Lain, we need you to come back to canada, and you too meep. Canada is as icy as it gets.

 

[r3d d09]

I'm not siding with anyone. I just want to make that clear. but He does have a point. Meep and lain. being top 3 best IC's in the world. We would like help and stuff. we get it every now and then. and we love it.

but when it's the basic pivot grab stuff. it's kinda disappointing because I know for a fact that you guys could give more info on matches.

Hylian helps out the boards a ton. and I appreciate it. At the same time, i hate constantly asking him stuff because he's one of the head mods and he has other stuff to do as well. So the players below you, literally look up to you.

there are local players that talk about you all the time. give them some satisfaction and help them out by posting more. even if it is just once a day or so.

Love you guys, but come on. step up and get along with eachother.

 

[PhantomX]

Right now, lain is definitely the one with the most good placings out there, being mad consistent overall(sometimes he loses quickly in winners randomly but makes it back in losers), followed by meep, they are at the top of the metagame and play on a completely different level than other ice climbers. Yes, we can argue, all im saying is right now hylian seems to be getting a whole lot of backup from other people from texas which makes his points seem more "valid", but hylian simply does not play on the same level as the 2 others do. They also most probably have a better understanding of the matchups than he does.


EDIT: Lain, we need you to come back to canada, and you too meep. Canada is as icy as it gets.

K, I'm about to respond to this with a couple concepts you may have trouble understanding; mainly logic and coherent thought.

By the same vein that you hold their opinion higher in regard because of their placings and being better than Hylian, shouldn't you look at their opponents as well? In this case, the argument for Sonic can be given to Lain because Lain is better than Hylian and it's hard to tell who between Shugo and Espy is a better player. However, not two weeks ago we did the Wario matchup. Hylian made tons of tons of posts which you instantly disregarded in favor of meep's pivot grab on reaction comment

Now, it's PRETTY **** SAFE TO SAY that I am considerably better than any Warios on the EC that meep has played against on the EC. Therefore, by your logic, Hylian's input should matter more, since his opponent is much more experienced in the matchup and better overall. Of course, since this isnt' about common sense and is about meatriding, you still ignored Hylian in favor of meep.

It's not because they're better, it's a double standard.

In other words. Your posts are worthless **** riding and you should just stop wasting the space.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yes, we can argue, all im saying is right now Hylian seems to be getting a whole lot of backup from other people from Texas which makes his points seem more "valid", but hylian simply does not play on the same level as the 2 others do.

Actually, while I can't vouch for Phantom X, who's the only other Texan in here besides myself (as far as I know)- and Hylian (who actually frequents this board)- I only came here to address several issues that I felt needed my attention, since it concerns the character that I play. This dispute between Meep/Lain and Hylian is there own thing, and I've taken no part in it.

 

[Prawn]

Blah blah blah random crap that doesn't make sense

Ok, now the IC mains are gonna talk about this matchup. Goodbye then.


Someone told me that in order to grab Sonic out of one of his attacks you actually need to be facing away from him, can someone confirm or deny this?

I have little to no experience in this matchup and want to learn it. Can Sonic gimp the climbers well?

 

[lain]

I said posting placements was pointless.

But you threatened it.

I haven't been trying to discredit anyone, that's what YOU guys are doing.

I have never discredited someone wrongfully, and neither has Meep.

And you guys AREN'T providing useful factual information which is why I'm getting upset. I wouldn't care if you guys were contributing but instead you just ride your placements with little to say about actual match-ups. Look over your posts. You haven't even said what you think about Sonic vs IC's yet. No one is discrediting you or calling you a random idiot you two just ARE being elitest.

Lol. Now THERE is the discrepancy we have. You (and quite a lot of people) don't understand what Meep and I are telling you. You're the one saying we're flat out wrong and nothing we say is "factual". You think we're just saying "Oh, pivot grab over and over! too good!" But no. You don't get it.

Also, I don't think it's smart at all to run away from ic's with a 10% lead the whole match considering how much damage their moves do. Running away with 6 minutes left from one climber isn't smart either. As shown in both vidoes. It just gives IC's free damage.

Good luck beating anyone halfway decent in the MW or MD/VA area then.

 

[PhantomX]

K, I'm about to respond to this with a couple concepts you may have trouble understanding; mainly logic and coherent thought.

Blah blah blah random crap that doesn't make sense

I loled pretty freaking hard.

 

[meepxzero]

wow at this thread...

I only say pivot grab because its all you really need. Hylian im sorry you throw WAAYYYY too many unnecessary attacks which leaves you open for sonic to **** ur ****. Thats how ice climbers get ***** they try to look fancy but its stupid. Shielding and grabbing is like 80% of ic game. The other 20% is the other stuff, but all those other things are situational.

If you wanna approach sonic or for that much anyone who doesnt have a projectile to camp you. Just do ice block chaser with basic desynchs (not hylians method cuz its pretty hard to time) and desynch blizzards (but dont alternate because its predictable at high levels). The ice block chaser i do is i pivot desynch with ice block and wait a half second more and throw an ice block with nana. If you wait half a second u can chase the ice block.

I always have nana desynching an ice block or blizzard now when i approach and reacting to how my opponent moves with popo. Its similar to diddy waiting with a banana in his hand while having one on the ground infront of him.

Thats how ive been playin ic for the past few months and its mad effective. Im sorry i dont have recent vids of me playing, but my style ***** like a good 90% of the cast now. Its h0mo as hell but its brawl so who cares.

And i do give a lot of good info from time to time. Its just no one understands a thing i say. I think lain does and i hope he uses the stuff i say because he could be so much more **** than he currently is.

If me and lain come off as elitist well my bad. I use to give good info but i just get shot down so i dont want to anymore.

 

[momochuu]

Yeahhhh. Gonna close this **** for about two hours. We have ~5 posts about Sonic vs. ICs in here. Extremely embarassing. There are no Sonics discussing with us.


Take this crap to PMs please.

@Meatriders (You know who you are)- Give it a rest.

 

[momochuu]

Opened. Any more posts like the ones that got this closed in the first place will result in infractions. No exceptions. You have been warned.


Sonic vs. ICs go.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Opened. Any more posts like the ones that got this closed in the first place will result in infractions. No exceptions. You have been warned.


Sonic vs. ICs go.

what were the posts that got it closed in the first place?

 

[momochuu]

Iunno, probably the 3-4 pages of arguing about useless crap.

 

[swordgard]

Iunno, probably the 3-4 pages of arguing about useless crap.

Its actually important for us to be able to judge on what we can use as good and bad info, its far from being useless. Its called information discrimination to attain knowledge and not get into false knowledge.

 

[lain]

Sooo.... what about Sonic now? He's really fast, and will can run away from you....

 

[Teh Future]

LOL wtf. I dont know that much but Im gonna try to get some conversation going. This IS theory, so if Im wrong by all means tell me im stupid. Sonic uses his side B cancel thing for everything: mindgames, mobility, ect. If you predict he is going to land with it from the air you can probably time an IB chase and grab him out of it. A lot of time sonics will do this at mid distance to bait something and then use the downb spin to actually approach, but if we predict that and we are at mid distance then that is the perfect range to IB chase > grab.

I have played this matchup a little and I remember blizzard being good because it will stop pretty much anything, but you want to know its going to hit because sonic can punish everything. If you desync blizzard and they try to go over you then lols you get free upairs.

discuss my nonsense nao :D and no more internet fights lmao

 

[lain]

Ice block ***** this char and makes me a lot more easily readable.

 

[swordgard]

Sooo.... what about Sonic now? He's really fast, and will can run away from you....

Hes too slow to run away, everyone knows that! And stalling is for good players sissies.


Pivot grab side b and down b makes the matchup easy, but jabs also do the trick as a barrage against his attacks. Blizzards are useful but can be punished if you be come predictable. Learn to DI side-B and down B to not get hit with further hits.

 

[r3d d09]

don't IB chase at random. He can jump and all fancy stuff. he can use one jump and cover half out of a special spin.

I suggest that people read a guide on sonic before posting to understand what he's capable of doing. it's some intense stuff. I'd know since i'm starting to pick him up >.> me and my learning curve characters haha

 

[FrozenHobo]

I'd know since i'm starting to pick him up >.> me and my learning curve characters haha

just gonna keep bringing that up till someone pats you on the back, aren't you?

 

[Firestormzero0]

i do believe ice block chasing in this matchup is a huge part in winning. It will probably help us all get grabs in so much easier than trying to catch him or predict his attacks and approaches to pivot grab. But yes you can pivot grab sonic out of all of his attacks if you do wait for him and predict how he is going to attack. But Ice Block Chasing is a Very good method in getting grabs in. Probably Desync Blizzard to grab would work also.

 

[meepxzero]

i know i stated it before, but please dont throw attacks out. Sonic baits u to do unnecessary moves and spindashes into you... Wait for sonic to do stuff and punish accordingly.

If you must throw out attacks desynch with nana (ice block chaser/blizzard) and use popo to react to how sonic moves. You want to create walls against sonic and pressure him off the ledge.

 

[Teh Future]

Well isn't Sonic's entire game just baiting and punishing? So what does he do if we just stand there LOL

Characters so wierd. Im just going to read everyone else input LOL. Oh sonic....

 

[meepxzero]

my bad read my edits. You can ice block/blizzard with nana to force him to do attack you. They dont do much damage, but the fact they create enough hitstun for you to walk up and grab with popo is enough to make sonic attack you.

 

[r3d d09]

just gonna keep bringing that up till someone pats you on the back, aren't you?

nope, it's just there is a lot more that meets the eye. If you understand the character, how to play the character, etc. then you are most likely to understand how to play against the character.

 

[FrozenHobo]

not necessarily. i second link and jiggs and neither give me a clear discernible edge in the match beside the fact i know link will spam and jiggs will stay in the air.

 

[r3d d09]

we all have different views on how things should be done. I usually read up on characters. know their styles and what not.

here is the link to sonic's view. it isn't that well written at all like their other match up summaries are...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=137

 

[Teh Future]

LMAO my posts are ******** im going back to only posting about characters I know. I blame everyone else because they started being dumb and internet fighting.

Sonic's still dumb.

 

[Prawn]

So I'm pretty sure ICs have a big advantage over Sonic for one reason,

what can Sonics do if you stay in shield? If he grabs you can Fsmash since to my knowledge his grabs aren't ridiculously fast or powerful. What exactly can he do if you abuse the hell out of shield? Does he have any moves that do good damage to shields?

 

[r3d d09]

a sonic should never really shield. he is fast enough to get out of the way. and with SDJ he can retreat from it if the move didn't land.

 

[choknater]

sonic?

i just blizzard all dai

 

[r3d d09]

SH blizz, full hop, desync SH blizz, Desync full hop? what one. there are pros and cons of each one against this match up.


this was just taken a minute ago from KB asking for help in the sonic vs IC matchup

lol at the ICs needing our help in their matchup discussion.

heres the ICs matchup against sonic

when he spins at you(it doesnt even matter which spin), run away and pivot grab him.

GG

also, what DJB said

Use MEEP LOGIC!!!

Pivot grab > everything.
100:0 ICs.

lol. Meep is too good. his basic answer is the best answer

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I play with both Sonic and ICs (Played this match too on both sides) so I can help a bit here.

Your gonna wanna try to wall the crap out of Sonic. DO NOT attack him, unless you know your gonna put pressure on him. As you know, he's extremely good at punishing. Homing attack is now unpredictable, especially when your separated since it could hit either Nana or Popo (Doesn't mean Sonic is gonna spam it).

In a nutshell, don't get baited into doing moves that leave you vulnerable. Desynched anything helps alot and keeps you safe. Now the problem ICs will face is:

- Sonic is one of the harder characters to grab due to that speed of his. So forget about focusing on grabs, you'll be killing him the old fashioned way most of the time. Only go for grabs when you pin him down and he doesn't have much room to move.

- On the note of Spin Dash, it has invincibility frames at the start of his Side B. The down B one is faster than the Side B one and will be used as a punishing tool most of the time. If you get hit, Popo might escape (Not likely) but Nana will feel the full force of the attack and follow up most of the time. Study up on his spins, it's a bit much to post all that stuff here. On the side note, his spin dash roll from his Side B is invincible if he starts it from a slope(Ex: edge's of Yoshi's Island- Brawl version).

- NEVER GET SEPARATED!!!! He WILL keep you two apart for a long time for obvious reasons.

- Try to focus on a ground game more, Sonic can take advantage of you more in the air. Be extremely careful when recovering, 9/10 times one of you (Worst case scenario none of you) will make it back. He can also drop springs while your recovering.

This match is just something you need more experience in to do well. He has alot of tricks to contend with ICs, if he gets predictable, you already won. Most Sonic's will play a hit and run game on ICs since they don't want to get their stock *****. It's also important that you do not lose Nana. If you do, Sonic can either:

A) Finish you off quickly with little fuss from you.

B) Be a jerk and run away (NEVER fun when your by yourself)

So what about stages? Well, FD is good as usual (Let's be honest, it's getting banned if you're a IC main) so try these:

- Battlefield is great against Sonic. Stay under the platforms and you shoundn't have to worry about him zooming over your head. It's also good Homing Attack repellant :D. It's small size also strenthens your grab game against him.

- Smashville is okay too. Helps with your recovery and your projectile game is useful here. Sonic's will try to control the platform so you'll have to deal with that. Once again, a good stage against him.

- Pokemon Stadium 1 is great too. Some transformations like the rock one limits Sonic's movement. If anything, pick this one.

- Castle Siege is okay, the first part is very small and we all know what that means. Second part is grounded, but it is large so it isn't so good here. 3rd part is like FD but tilts around, it's ok. I would pick this against Sonic if I can't think of anything else, you'll only have to be careful of the 2nd transformation since it gives Sonic the freedom to run around the place.

Any other stage isn't so good against Sonic. He pretty much outshines ICs on the rest of the stages.

Overall I would call this even, the match could switch very easily depending on the stage. Sonic has much more stage options than ICs and one mistake from either side could end very poorly for said player. It's probably 55:45 ICs though but I haven't really seen anything to warrant that or anything higher than that yet (Same goes for Sonic, but it looks like it can go to 55:45 Sonic due to said things above).

 

[ChamP_SlayZ]

Ive played Shugo's sonic many times. Desync Ice breath til he try to jump in the air for an attack. its cat and mouse all game til sonic makes a mistake and u get the grab, and once u get this grab u better not drop it cuz its not hard to CG sonic. its a very even match-up id give Icys the favor with 55-45 as well. **but please dont let that **** hedgehog split u and Uair ur nana it makes me sad face lolZ**

 

[r3d d09]

what CG do most of you feel comfortable with...i've been practicing on comp and B throw hobble seems to be okay with me, but i try and never rely on hobbling.

your opinion?

 

[Firestormzero0]

actually i am opposite. if i think i am going to mess up alternating CG's or somethin other than hobbling. I just revert to hobbling, its my slow but safe method. But i usually dont have to do that anymore

 

[Teh Future]

Bunnnnny if you can edit the GD name you can at least change teh character or let someone else take over who willll