Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[Funen1]

Okay, here's the deal:
1: Iceblock forces approach- This helps a lot in the MU. When you have both climbers, one will eat AS, the other will get lucario. Simple enough. The ability of this to work beyond forcing an approach is limited though if lucario takes the fight to the air.

The point of using desynched Ice Blocks is to force them to approach in the air. The only problem with this is that Lucario is one of the few whose air game can, at the least, match our ground game.

Another thing, lucario gets killability vs. midweights as early as in the 100% range. Iirc, ICs are on the light side

Last I checked, the Ice Climbers are only 0.97 times the weight of Mario. Compared to other characters, that not very light (by comparison, Jigglypuff and Game & Watch, the lightest, clock in around 0.85 times Mario's weight). And just for clarification, Lucario getting mid-weight kills at 100% is assuming what percentage (or percentage range) for Lucario?

I'm afraid I don't have much experience with Lucario, so I'm not sure I can contribute much else.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sorry, my mistake. I thought they were a tad lighter than that (then again, deceptive weights like wario's always get me weirded out)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Lucario takes a while to kill, then just be patient and wait for the kill. If Lucario continues to keep his spacing game going, then he should be able to keep safely racking up damage on the Ice climbers.

He has the tools to avoid getting grabbed.

Sorry but I don't think this is in IC's favor, but Lucario is no Snake, 60-40 Lucario at worst for Ice climbers, I can see 55-45, 50-50 might be pushing it.

And Meep, Lucario gets a boost for being a stock behind.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm back on the "tips slightly to luca's favor" line again.
Pending (maybe): A conversation with Ksizzle and sliiight johns lol.

 

[meepxzero]

If Lucario takes a while to kill, then just be patient and wait for the kill. If Lucario continues to keep his spacing game going, then he should be able to keep safely racking up damage on the Ice climbers.

He has the tools to avoid getting grabbed.

Sorry but I don't think this is in IC's favor, but Lucario is no Snake, 60-40 Lucario at worst for Ice climbers, I can see 55-45, 50-50 might be pushing it.

And Meep, Lucario gets a boost for being a stock behind.

The stock boost doesnt help that much. People need to throw the idea out of the window that they can avoid getting grabbed for 8 mins especially when their main is specalized in grabbing people out of dumb ****. Ive pivot grabbed marth outta his fair and gaw out of his bair. If you exploit ic advantages with pivot grab you can grab anyone outta anything in brawl.

Unless ur mk every character gets grabbed in brawl.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The stock boost doesnt help that much.

Lucario starts at if he was boosted at 50% if he is a stock behind. I believe it also messes with where the cap of his boost is.

That makes a difference, not major but it does matter.

People need to throw the idea out of the window that they can avoid getting grabbed for 8 mins especially when their main is specalized in grabbing people out of dumb ****. Ive pivot grabbed marth outta his fair and gaw out of his bair. If you exploit ic advantages with pivot grab you can grab anyone outta anything in brawl.

I'm saying he has the tools to avoid getting grabbed, not that it won't happen.

And yeah your going to grab people if they do dumb crap, thats what your main does. Bait moves and look for openings in bad spacing.

Unless ur mk every character gets grabbed in brawl.

MK gets grabbed in Brawl. If he's air camping or not, he can be grabbed.

 

[penguin_and_panda]

Lucario can be gimped pretty easily off stage because his recovery doesn't do any damage or knockback, and if he is ice blocked off the stage which steals both his jumps and is forced to use extremespeed. All ICs need to do is grab the ledge and if Lucario can't make it straight on the stage. He's lost a stock....

 

[Alfa]

Lucario can be gimped pretty easily off stage because his recovery doesn't do any damage or knockback, and if he is ice blocked off the stage which steals both his jumps and is forced to use extremespeed. All ICs need to do is grab the ledge and if Lucario can't make it straight on the stage. He's lost a stock....

Few things I'd like to point out here:
1. Lucario's recovery is very versatile, and can move around a lot, so it isn't as easy as people think to gimp him.
2. How can Lucario being Ice blocked off stage steal both his jumps? Lucario only has one off stage jump...
3. How will Lucario be put into this position in the first place? If he gets, say, chaingrabbed to spike, he can Double Jump, Up B and curve his recovery to land him on the stage, until he get to really high percents.
4. Also
"All ICs need to do is grab the ledge and if Lucario can't make it straight on the stage."
Ledge =/= stage
(You didn't need the 'if' in there as well)

PS. I saw that your Location is Victoria Australia, have you considered coming to the Melbourne tourny, Stigma B, and the east coast tourny, Rocky? Stigma B has about 40 people each month, and Rocky will have somewhere from 80-100 people.
Stigma B: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210245
Rocky: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226449
Rocky signups: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245186

 

[penguin_and_panda]

Few things I'd like to point out here:
1. Lucario's recovery is very versatile, and can move around a lot, so it isn't as easy as people think to gimp him.
2. How can Lucario being Ice blocked off stage steal both his jumps? Lucario only has one off stage jump...
3. How will Lucario be put into this position in the first place? If he gets, say, chaingrabbed to spike, he can Double Jump, Up B and curve his recovery to land him on the stage, until he get to really high percents.
4. Also
"All ICs need to do is grab the ledge and if Lucario can't make it straight on the stage."
Ledge =/= stage
(You didn't need the 'if' in there as well)

PS. I saw that your Location is Victoria Australia, have you considered coming to the Melbourne tourny, Stigma B, and the east coast tourny, Rocky? Stigma B has about 40 people each month, and Rocky will have somewhere from 80-100 people.
Stigma B: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210245
Rocky: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226449
Rocky signups: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245186

Srry for all my mistakes. What I mean't is straight on to the platform. (I'm not sure if that's write either =/) Lucario COULD be put in that position because ICs dtilt is a semi spike and therefore a an ice block could steal his jump, forcing him into extremespeed. And I can't go to tourneys because my parents think I'm too young and that it's a waste of time to the chance I'm gonna ever go to a tourney is about 0%....

 

[ksizl4life]

ive never played iceys with lucario outside the friendlies with meep at SNES

alot of people told me not to play seriously in friendlies with meep becuz he supposedly sandbags intensly lol. so idk. it looked like we were having fun. basically all i did was stay on the platforms and tried not to get grabbed. and if id get off the platforms id spam pivot f smash.

thats it lol. id play differently in tourney.

no disrespect to you meep but i didnt wana take a chance with playing at my fullest while you read me like everyone told me you would. id go snake/lucario on you in tourney. dont worry im not like md va who hates u for iceys lol. your a pretty kewl player.

 

[meepxzero]

ive never played iceys with lucario outside the friendlies with meep at SNES

alot of people told me not to play seriously in friendlies with meep becuz he supposedly sandbags intensly lol. so idk. it looked like we were having fun. basically all i did was stay on the platforms and tried not to get grabbed. and if id get off the platforms id spam pivot f smash.

thats it lol. id play differently in tourney.

no disrespect to you meep but i didnt wana take a chance with playing at my fullest while you read me like everyone told me you would. id go snake/lucario on you in tourney. dont worry im not like md va who hates u for iceys lol. your a pretty kewl player.

yea none taken i agree with friendlies not to be taken seriously. I was basing most of the stuff i was saying with my experiences with azen in tourney and just generally thinking about the match up in general.

You have to have a gameplan fighting lucario because he has weird attributes that no other chars has. I really have no idea what beats what vs lucario. All i know is not to uair lucario through platforms unless spaced perfectly and his dair beats our uair some of the tme. I feel like the match up is handled just like marth because lucario is pretty aerial based character.

If these were the johns i was hearing phiny they are pretty legit we were both having fun with our friendlies and not taking it that seriously.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Would pulling a MikeHaze and scream canceling be effective on Ice Climbers?

 

[choknater]

i bet some ic players could still cg even with that extra metamindgame tactic, especially if they expect it

LOL

 

[phi1ny3]

yea none taken i agree with friendlies not to be taken seriously. I was basing most of the stuff i was saying with my experiences with azen in tourney and just generally thinking about the match up in general.

You have to have a gameplan fighting lucario because he has weird attributes that no other chars has. I really have no idea what beats what vs lucario. All i know is not to uair lucario through platforms unless spaced perfectly and his dair beats our uair some of the tme. I feel like the match up is handled just like marth because lucario is pretty aerial based character.

If these were the johns i was hearing phiny they are pretty legit we were both having fun with our friendlies and not taking it that seriously.

Yeah I wasn't sure lol.

Anywho, I saw someone mention lucario's recovery being "gimpable", and I want to clarify. Esp. with ICs, that's very false. It's easier to edgeguard against because lucario gets limited options for ES itself, but he has some much better tools for getting back besides recovery, plus I think that you're misusing the term "gimp" itself. Unless lucario is too far away from the stage to do it, he can go onto the stage, which in "Super Theorycraft Land" is punishable, but in reality if done correctly the most a person can get on lucario is a ledgehop fair (unless they're snake and they just decided to stay on the stage near the edge, then you're screwed, but lucario shouldn't be going for the stage anyways in that instance). ICs don't have a very fast nor long ranged fair/nair, which are the only things I can see lucario being smacked with for doing that, so no, Lucario is not easily "gimped".
I'm back on the 55:45 lucario boat, platforms (not that ICs can't do CGs on platform stages lol) and some safe lucario tools can make gimp very possible, which is what lucario is going to do obv. early in the game, and with fair strings, dair for separation, and retreating FF nair for safe landings, it helps a lot, plus lucario's ground game though normally unsafe on PS, will do very well in the MU with good shield "push", low end lag, and longer range disjoints are helpful, but once again, it's very dependent on who gets the first stock. If lucario gets CG infinited because of a mistake, it's as good as over, he can try a come back, but it's tough X_X, but the same applies to if the ICs get 1/2 gimped (leaving Sopo), or if they trip/mess up CG, which isn't a very good argument for a MU discussion, but it is good to know the risk. This MU is very fun, nearly the epitome of "high risk, high reward" for both chars.

 

[DMG]

Lucario has to try and kill IC's? What happened to just running away the Whole Match?

Are you guys going SOFT on me?

 

[momochuu]

Okay uhh...I'm doing these write-ups. I don't know very much about the Wario vs. ICs matchup because I've played about four/five Wario mains in my entire life. I'm requesting that another one of the ICs mains make a write-up for this matchup. I really want to avoid having false data, which would probably happened if I wrote something for Wario vs. ICs.


That's why the OP is behind by two updates. I've been trying to figure out what to say about Wario. >_>

 

[DMG]

Wario: Best Character in Game. Give Up When Facing This Beast.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario has to try and kill IC's? What happened to just running away the Whole Match?

Are you guys going SOFT on me?

Oh yeah *facepalms*.
I think I have a possible new custom title lol
something like "I can't believe it's not Butter Stalling!"

 

[r3d d09]

KB, stop johning jk... atleast you've played more Warios than i have. ha

 

[PhantomX]

Okay uhh...I'm doing these write-ups. I don't know very much about the Wario vs. ICs matchup because I've played about four/five Wario mains in my entire life. I'm requesting that another one of the ICs mains make a write-up for this matchup. I really want to avoid having false data, which would probably happened if I wrote something for Wario vs. ICs.


That's why the OP is behind by two updates. I've been trying to figure out what to say about Wario. >_>

Should probably get Hylian to do it. He probably has more high level ICs vs Wario matchup knowledge than anyone else.

 

[swordgard]

Should probably get Hylian to do it. He probably has more high level ICs vs Wario matchup knowledge than anyone else.

It starts all over again...

 

[PhantomX]

It starts all over again...

Oh right... I forgot you were satisfied with "Just pivot grab him."

 

[meepxzero]

Oh right... I forgot you were satisfied with "Just pivot grab him."

mannnnnnnnnn..... we can win every match up just pivot grabbbing. I SEE THE FUTURE!!! SEE me in tourney son id **** you. yea drunk post ftw. Ignore this pleaseeeeeee i have no idea what im talkin about hahahahahahaahhaa. Sorry bunny dont infract me. T_____T i love youuU!

 

[momochuu]

Lol, no problem Meep. Love you toos.


I'm hearing people say Lucario can gimp ICs. How does this happen?

 

[phi1ny3]

Simple, fair strings = WoP at low-mid percents, plus dair/ftilt helps get them separated in the first place for it to occur. Lucario has some good moves to get this going.
Once IC (especially a lone climber) is offstage, there's fair -> fair again and again, fair -> dair, fair -> AS (not a common one unless they suspect an AD to follow the fair, or if the opponent has a slow fair).
Dair can also hit Popo out of Belay while nana's already jumped, not that it'll happen often, but good to keep in mind.
Like I said though, dair outranges and is faster than uair, and is one of the best IC splitters, one flies one way, the other goes the other which even at low aura buffs allow for lucario to try to throttle the lone climber and fair string him/her offstage until they can't recover. Think Melee Jiggly WoP, only slightly more damage dependent and slightly easier to get out of.
I don't remember, but I think lucario can also dair ICs out of Squall Hammer, which is another recovery option, and will reset the situation again.

 

[momochuu]

Having computer issues. x___x Very big computer issues. Putting this on hold for now.

 

[phi1ny3]

I wanna hear from Ksizzle about the MU after he plays Meep again (if he does soon).

 

[Hylian]

Should probably get Hylian to do it. He probably has more high level ICs vs Wario matchup knowledge than anyone else.

I don't agree with the match-up being even like most of the others in this thread, so while my write-up would be good, I don't think I could do one portraying this as even.

Doesn't matter that I've played all the warios and have a ton of tournament experience against him if no one agrees :/.

 

[Smoom77]

Does Lucario's dair beat our uair? I was playing Trela and we both got hit.

 

[r3d d09]

I don't agree with the match-up being even like most of the others in this thread, so while my write-up would be good, I don't think I could do one portraying this as even.

Doesn't matter that I've played all the warios and have a ton of tournament experience against him if no one agrees :/.

ban the none agree'ers

 

[momochuu]

I guess this can go on. I won't able to update the OP as much as I'd like, (typing from a phone sucks x_x) but I can just take notes and update when I can.


Next character is Sonic.

 

[FrozenHobo]

sonic (as is see it) is 60:40 ICs at least. take him to BF and he can't do anything. if he goes FD, just camp and grab. its an annoying match at times because of how hard he is to catch, but if you play carefully and don't just wiff attacks its in the bag. plus, he's really simple to CG. like, fthrow -> bthrow easy. true, he can split up nana, but he has no kill moves/mediocre recovery so even if he does separate and gimp her he's easy as **** to ledge guard/hog.

in summary, he has speed and can *sort of* gimp nana, and then we have everything else.

EDIT: plus, you can grab him out of any of his attacks with good timing. no, really, anything. you can even pivot grab his usmash. its crazy.

 

[Hylian]

Sonic vs IC's is not that simple at all lol. It's easily even or maybe slightly in ics favor. I'll have some videos up vs espy soon. Sonics hard :/.

The thing is most sonics suck so it's usually easy lol. But sonic has a TON of options that most characters just don't against IC's.

 

[DMG]

Sonic's recovery is actually pretty decent.

 

[r3d d09]

I definitely need to learn this matchup. one of my best state players is a sonic. top 3 atleast. anyways. I haven't played him via IC's yet.I will try and get some experience in this before posting.

Yes, please Hylian upload the espy vids xD

Another thing, i'm kinda picking up sonic. Learning him is helping me understand how to play against him.

Last thing, I will ask the sonic boards to see if they can help us with a write up, or just get some discussion going.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Sonic's recovery is actually pretty decent.

but really really really predictable/gimpable.

 

[Hylian]

but really really really predictable/gimpable.

Huh?

Not at all. It's one of the hardest. Spinshot clears them of like everything.

 

[r3d d09]

i think he's talking about his spring recovery. a good sonic will always spring to ledge, not over do it and land on stage unless it's not punishable and doesn't steal his spring. aka by not entering fall animation.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i never find it to be hard to predict what they're going to do. its either spin or jump and both are fairly easy to counter.

like i said, you can grab him out of anything he does. spin dash is incredibly easy to grab, actually.

also, as a note, nana on the ledge and popo on the stage means if they springs they have to go for the stage, other wise, they attack nana and fall to their death. they land on the stage and its a grab/attack.


i used to think it was a hard matchup, too, until i realized platforms **** him up and anything he does is a grab.

 

[r3d d09]

what sonics have you played? just curious.