Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[The Cape]

Lol combos are more fun to pull off in Brawl because of this very reason.

Also Melee wasn't all inescapable combos either, the difference is the amount of skill it takes to get out of them. It doesn't mean it takes any less skill to pull them off. I'd rather not just play Brawl with easier combos.

Firstly: Then dont. This thread isnt here to tell everyone they have to play. Its for those of us that like parts of Brawl, but hate the rest of it.

and secondly: Melee combos and Brawl+ combos feel SOOOO satisfying because you know that you tricked your opponent into getting the pants spanked off of them, and it brings a sense of fear to you when you know they can do it right back.

Regular Brawl combos were never satisfying (to me) because they always left that "now did that combo actually work, or did he just not air dodge out?" feeling. I like knowing that I smacked the opponent around so well that he was too busy holding his butt hole from the pain to even think that he could have gotten out with a mindgame or two.

Legit combos take mindgames, Brawl combos take mindgames. I prefer the ones where they take mind games to start, and some tech skill, some imagination and a few more mindgames to continue.

 

[MuBa]

The Cape, we are very glad that you like Brawl+

This shows that this game has potential to become very popular in the coming future.

I wished the STL liked Brawl+ but I have no clue how to get tell these ignorant fools that this game is awesome (well except for the ones who already like Brawl as it is).

 

[petre]

Legit combos take mindgames, Brawl combos ARE mindgames. I prefer the ones where they take mind games to start, and some tech skill, some imagination and a few more mindgames to continue.

fixed.

Spoiler

10combosdonexitsinbarwl

 

[The Cape]

As for the hybrid air dodge I will give it an honest try here in the next week sometime. I am still against WDing in Brawl, but I will see what this code is all about.

 

[zxeon]

As for the hybrid air dodge I will give it an honest try here in the next week sometime. I am still against WDing in Brawl, but I will see what this code is all about.

Keep in mind that this isn't it's final form nor has it's code been optimized to make the code smaller.

I think I speak for everyone when I say some actual imput would be a nice change of pace from the usual flame war that goes on in this thread.

 

[The Cape]

Keep in mind that this isn't it's final form nor has it's code been optimized to make the code smaller.

I think I speak for everyone when I say some actual imput would be a nice change of pace from the usual flame war that goes on in this thread.

I was a supporter of the pseudo MAD. Keep momentum out of it, only get one, and can do stuff afterwards. I am hoping for no WD though V.V

Will check this out when I get a chance and report back all my findings.

 

[Deleted member]

I was a supporter of the pseudo MAD. Keep momentum out of it, only get one, and can do stuff afterwards. I am hoping for no WD though V.V

Will check this out when I get a chance and report back all my findings.

That is my stance also, maybe if the WD was significantly shorter, so dashing would still be a better option.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That is my stance also, maybe if the WD was significantly shorter, so dashing would still be a better option.

Or if wavedashing had lag, which is pretty much the most important part to balancing it.

 

[the_judge]

Or if wavedashing had lag, which is pretty much the most important part to balancing it.

The only way to satisfy the majority is if WDing isn't in B+ altogether.
It be kinda useless to nerf it to the point where it's umm..............useless.

 

[petre]

The only way to satisfy the majority is if WDing isn't in B+ altogether.
It be kinda useless to nerf it to the point where it's umm..............useless.

in melee, a much faster game, the wavedash had 10 frames of lag. brawl+'s wavedash has about 2 frames of lag.

it definitely wouldnt make it useless.

 

[the_judge]

in melee, a much faster game, the wavedash had 10 frames of lag. brawl+'s wavedash has about 2 frames of lag.

it definitely wouldnt make it useless.

But according to an earlier dispute, BADers are against WDing altogether.
It doesn't matter if we duplicate Melee's or nerf it even more, ppl just don't want it in.

Also plenty of ppl were lured into B+ being told that WDing isn't coming back.

 

[Levitas]

So I hear WDing's coming back.

Where do I sign up?

 

[petre]

But according to an earlier dispute, BADers are against WDing altogether.
It doesn't matter if we duplicate Melee's or nerf it even more, ppl just don't want it in.

Also plenty of ppl were lured into B+ being told that WDing isn't coming back.

they are.

i was just trying to show you that adding lag wouldn't make the wavedash unusable like you were saying...

EDIT:

Also plenty of ppl were lured into B+ being told that WDing isn't coming back.

So I hear WDing's coming back.

Where do I sign up?

lol

 

[Archangel]

Lets not forget that some where lowered into Brawl+ because they think WD is coming back. See Levitas's post above me.

 

[Archangel]

I never claimed to know you nor would I need to. You're the one judging people you don't know (M2K) and making up **** about him, which is why I told you to stfu. Nothing more.

your saying you don't know me and don't need to know me in order to judge me correct? WTF? That just negates your entire initial response. What I want to know is why you prowling this thread looking for posts on M2K? That must be the case. Unless you just Mr.Magoo came by it by complete coincidence? I couldn't help but notice your from NJ. Maybe your good friends with the guy and don't like the idea of his name getting smeared by some random posters who don't know him without him being around to defend himself? Or your a stalker/ (Nut hugging fan boy) yes man obsessed with with M2K and all of his fights that hangs with him, constantly reminds him of how much greater he is than everyone else, and secretly wishes to be him. If I had to guess I'd say your 1 or the either.

 

[Starscream]

your saying you don't know me and don't need to know me in order to judge me correct? WTF? That just negates your entire initial response. What I want to know is why you prowling this thread looking for posts on M2K? That must be the case. Unless you just Mr.Magoo came by it by complete coincidence? I couldn't help but notice your from NJ. Maybe your good friends with the guy and don't like the idea of his name getting smeared by some random posters who don't know him without him being around to defend himself? Or your a stalker/ (Nut hugging fan boy) yes man obsessed with with M2K and all of his fights that hangs with him, constantly reminds him of how much greater he is than everyone else, and secretly wishes to be him. If I had to guess I'd say your 1 or the either.

Are you dense? Magus never "judged" you at all. He just kindly asked you to shut the f*ck up and stop slandering someone you don't even know which is what you most certainly did. It's not about stalking or lurking around for posts about M2K, it's about having common decency to ask someone to stop being douchebag when they see it. Did it ever occur to you that he may have been following this thread the whole time and only decided to post against what you said? Maybe Magus is friends with M2K, maybe he isn't, why should that matter? I don't even know Magus, does this mean I'm a stalking Magus fanboy? Nope, you're just being a tool. Do you have so much pride that you can't just admit you did something wrong (which you most certainly did) and apologize?


On topic... I finally have my Wii back so I'll be trying HAD soon although I agree with Dark Sonic. The only way to have wavedashing be acceptable is by adding frames of lag where you cannot do anything at all. I thought the problem with the old MAD code was not only stacking wavedashes but also being able to instantly do anything out of them. From the sound of things, the former is gone with a timer, the latter isn't. That doesn't seem good at all. Adding frames of lag would fix both. Although it will still be for nothing (to me) if the length of said wavedashes are still ridiculously long.

 

[Archangel]

Are you dense? Magus never "judged" you at all. He just kindly asked you to shut the f*ck up and stop slandering someone you don't even know which is what you most certainly did. It's not about stalking or lurking around for posts about M2K, it's about having common decency to ask someone to stop being douchebag when they see it. Did it ever occur to you that he may have been following this thread the whole time and only decided to post against what you said? Maybe Magus is friends with M2K, maybe he isn't, why should that matter? I don't even know Magus, does this mean I'm a stalking Magus fanboy? Nope, you're just being a tool. Do you have so much pride that you can't just admit you did something wrong (which you most certainly did) and apologize?

Okay maybe I crossed the line with M2K but still I must ask....who the hell are you? When did this become your business as well. It was between me and Kupo like 1000 years ago. Then Magus decides to cut in on it way later and now you? You can't say I'm a douchebag, Tool, or prideful because we have not only met but haven't until now even exchanged words....Why..who...what the hell is going on here? I'm not a tool I can say that. I'd be on the "Tool Academy" If I was. lmao.

In all seriousness though if you don't have anything to discuss with me then just ignore me. I don't think me, Magus or yourself could ever be friends or ever agree on anything now. It's basically to late. We have taken getting off on the wrong foot to a whole new level. Thus any further conversation would be pointless. Based on this initial interaction we'll just find way to disagree because we now have reasons to not like each other at all life is too short to spend arguing on a Smash Boards Forum on a thread with an entirely different subject. I for won am willing to start off on the right foot.

High I'm Spam what's your name.

 

[Starscream]

First of I never called you a douchebag or a tool, I said you were "being" those. You were merely acting that way, whether you are or not I can't say because I don't know you. I also didn't say you were prideful, I merely asked if you had so much pride. See the difference?

Who the hell am I? I'm a guy who can only read so much ridiculousness and keep quiet before interjecting. I don't mean to be a jerk, being harsh just seemed to be the best way to get through to you. You could have just as easily said to Magus on your first reply "My bad, I don't know M2K, I should probably stop slandering the guy" and everything would be awesome.

And I don't hold any grudges nor would I base my opinion on important topics pertaining to Brawl+ on whether I like a person or not.

 

[Archangel]

First of I never called you a douchebag or a tool, I said you were "being" those. You were merely acting that way, whether you are or not I can't say because I don't know you. I also didn't say you were prideful, I merely asked if you had so much pride. See the difference?

Who the hell am I? I'm a guy who can only read so much ridiculousness and keep quiet before interjecting. I don't mean to be a jerk, being harsh just seemed to be the best way to get through to you. You could have just as easily said to Magus on your first reply "My bad, I don't know M2K, I should probably stop slandering the guy" and everything would be awesome.

And I don't hold any grudges nor would I base my opinion on important topics pertaining to Brawl+ on whether I like a person or not.

Your a funny guy I must admit. Almost as slick as myself...possibly slicker....yeah I'm sure of it. I don't know how to get this across to you but...This has nothing to do with you. Who died and made you the ref bud? Nobody that's who. Your not a thread superhero that interjects for justice and truth man. You just jumped in on someone else who was jumping in. If I had to guess I'd say someone else will jump in you jumping in on someone else jumping in. Why? Because nobody can seem to mind there own business (Myself included). It's seems to come with the territory but I'm saying that your best bet is to let it go. This whole thing started with M2k a guy that I can't say for sure that Any of us know. I will admit that a personal attack on the guy based entirely on hear say was a bit much. However you and your bud Magus aren't much different from where I'm standing. It's obvious at this point we will waist are time for a few lines but I don't mind. You've seen a few posts of mind and decided you knew where I was coming from. Its not like I hate M2K. I respect his Marth in Melee. I don't respect his or any other Meta Knight in regular Brawl. That is where I stand just to fill you in. I've seen M2K vids where he's lost in tourney's and made excuses(in his defense they are reasonable I guess) The fact that he PWNED my friend in there match could have also clouded my friends judgment of him. However that's basically all I have to go on. Same goes for you and your friend. I'll say again that M2K may be a cool guy...but I don't know him. Even if I did I'd tell him that his MK is a *** I don't mean to go way off into space here. You and Magus might feel your doing justice by stepping in on Kupo and I's conversation, cutting out words from my posts and calling me a tool and I might even be a tool at times. but I'm just saying showing up with an S on your chest and a cape of Justice flowing in the wind doesn't make you right either.

 

[Archangel]

getting back to the topic who aside from Luigi has a ridiculously long WD? I noticed that some characters have longer WD ability then others but none quite like Luigi's. However sense Luigi's recovery is FAR betting in Brawl I wonder if he really needs to slide as far. Another person who is seemingly unstoppable now is Lucas. I tested him out and he's a BEAST! with the wavelanding. even if you slightly nerf the slide and WD's can't be stacked in HAD's final form Lucas will be a pretty **** good character in the future. I'm not going to class. I'm going to sleep off the leftover drowsiness I have from yesterday.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Someone said it before, Brawl+ is not to replace Brawl, its to provide an alternative. We are not trying to make Melee 2.0 here. I do in fact enjoy Brawl+ more than I do Melee.

Not trying to convince you of something different here, but I just can't see something like this being as good in Brawl+ as in Melee. I guess I'll need to test it with some friends, but right now I don't see it. :/

 

[kupo15]

Spam. Stop double posting

 

[Shell]

What I want to know is what exactly is wrong with the concept of wavedashing in brawl+. So many people say that they don't want wavedashing in brawl+ in any form and to that I ask why?

Is the simple act of being able to slide backwards so odd to you?

I don't want wavedashing in it's current form because it is still a messy mechanic. But...we can fix it. I personally believe wavedashing would be better if it had more lag on it, and only taveled a little bit farther than the character's initial dash animation.

My reasoning? For all distances smaller than the initial dash animation, you can pivot. For all distances after the full run animation, you can dash cancel. However, we are still missing the inbetween (yes, there is an in between). Pivoting is also limited in it's applications because of it's difficulty in many aspects (for instance, pivot up tilts vs wavedash up tilts). That is why I would chose that specific distance for the wavedash to travel.

As for the amount of lag, it is not only to prevent stacking wavedashes, but also to make the act of wavedashing itself punishable. So that it is not the optimal form of movement (as you'd be better of in either a dashing or walking state), but still a unique movement option to add to all the others, with it's own pros and cons.

Now then, that is my little rant about why wavedashing is not necessarily a bad thing. Directional airdodges however, is a completely different subject. However, this is my ideal wavedash, which likely would be extremely dificult to code and take up a lot of space. Were this able to be done without taking a lot of space, I'd wholeheartedly support it, but anything else I'm pretty much against.

It seems to be the trend to crucify those that appreciate the ideal of wavedashing in B+, regardless of how balanced the proposition.

While I maintain my feelings of neutrality for many reasons, I think that Dark Sonic hit the nail on the head for the pros of a balanced wavedash. A shorter WD with lag would keep it as a mid-range spacing tool, not a movement tool. This is something we lack right now, and I think that if it worked like Dark Sonic is proposing and also left BAD in place, it would add significantly to Brawl+'s metagame.

If it did achieve this depth without the consequence of homogeneity and overpowered options, I think the only argument I could have against it would be line space.

Now, crucify me.

 

[Starscream]

*snip*

Um, wow, I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Not only do you completely miss the point, not address what people actually say, you also make up tons of nonsense. Yeah I was wrong to interject but man, what I say is nothing compared to the stuff you make up and completely misinterpret. Doesn't seem like you can be reasoned with. Have a nice day.

 

[Shell]

Is anyone who abhors the notion of WD able to refute Dark Sonic's post? I think it was very reasonable. Please don't less this bit of constructive reasoning be lost in the bickering and potshots of this thread.

 

[Eaode]

I don't feel like getting tangled up in this thread at the moment, but I must drop in to say that Spam sounds like a blabbering 8 year old that was never taught manners, doesn't know when to shut up, and doesn't know a thing about American History.

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Archangel]

You couldn't resist could you Eaode? I could understand Magus and even starscream...but you are a ********. I mean really. Showing up a day late and a dollar short

 

[Shell]

Guys, be the bigger man/woman and get over it. If we can't shape this up it needs to get locked.

Discuss Dark Sonic's post, please. I think it's a great point and I'm waiting for a great counter.

 

[Finns7]

THere is too much going on in here idk

There is no point anymore, brawl+ will most likely split, The Haders madders have issues with Bad and they want a finished code, the badders feel that Bad is the best fit for the game. Both codes have pros and cons and it is based on the player opinion and biases.

This thread is basically flame thread. I see no winner in this atm

The had code insnt finished and should be. Just like how we fixed up the other codes. If it doesnt fit, it doesnt fit. I personally think other accepted codes will not fit down the line.

 

[goodoldganon]

Wavedashing isn't needed is enough for me. It homogenizes movement and ruins what I feel is a perfectly good dodge. I know it sounds lame but as a counter point, what exactly does wavedashing bring that furthers the depth of the game by a significant enough level?

THere is too much going on in here idk

There is no point anymore, brawl+ will most likely split, The Haders madders have issues with Bad and they want a finished code, the badders feel that Bad is the best fit for the game. Both codes have pros and cons and it is based on the player opinion and biases.

This thread is basically flame thread. I see no winner in this atm

This x1000. I'd love to say we could get one side to be the bigger man and concede for the sake of moving on with the project, but I'm not sure even I would be a bigger man...

 

[storm92]

THere is too much going on in here idk

There is no point anymore, brawl+ will most likely split, The Haders madders have issues with Bad and they want a finished code, the badders feel that Bad is the best fit for the game. Both codes have pros and cons and it is based on the player opinion and biases.

This thread is basically flame thread. I see no winner in this atm

I said this on like the fourth page.
It's like Republicans and Democrats, we're split ideologically.
You think a different AD and WD benefits Brawl+, and our side doesn't.
There's no compromise there.

What goodoldganon said as well.

 

[Finns7]

I want to see vids on how wd homogenizes the game.........Remember there is no finished code yet.

Gooldoldganon do you think DD and DC = wd? well I dont all have diff uses.


^ storm it might also be what you got used too, I got used to the old mad code. Even though I knew it wasnt finished I thought it had potential.

The DD, DC , speed dash and air moementum are said to increase mobility. So far IMO DD and DC do not = wd, then the question comes do we need it? Well some can say do we need this and that, what makes this game fun and more competetive?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I like wavedashing to have no lag because it provides more applications with platforms and for use in combos. I don't find it overpowered, but I could see why people wouldn't want it to be the MAIN form of movement.

Also what do people expect the opinion on wavedashing to be on the General BRAWL Discussion boards lol. A lot of my friends were interested in Brawl+ because of MAD and don't understand why anyone would want to remove it.

Wavedashing isn't needed is enough for me. It homogenizes movement and ruins what I feel is a perfectly good dodge. I know it sounds lame but as a counter point, what exactly does wavedashing bring that furthers the depth of the game by a significant enough level?



This x1000. I'd love to say we could get one side to be the bigger man and concede for the sake of moving on with the project, but I'm not sure even I would be a bigger man...

There are tons of applications if you are creative enough with it. Considering Brawl's floatiness you can waveland after all your aerials a lot more to make combos seem fluid, platforms and slopes can be taken advantage of to showcase some smartz, and anything that can be JC'ed can be wavedash canceled. Pikachu can wavedash out of QAC, and Sonic can practically wavedash out of all of his moves and cancel them with platforms. I think it'll add tons to the game and I've barely scratched the surface with its uses. If people tested it out more I'm sure they'd discover more than what I have.

 

[storm92]

^ storm it might also be what you got used too, I got used to the old mad code. Even though I knew it wasnt finished I thought it had potential.

I gave this code a chance since it came out, and played around 125 matches with it or so, and I stuck with my conclusion that I didn't like it in B+.
There's no lag on WD, the WD are way too long, I believe that we're trying to bring in a completely foreign mechanic (and this is WAY different than no ASL, DD, DC, etc.) from one Smash game, and we're trying to fix something that's not broken.
BAD is not OP in Brawl+, and I can agree that DC+DD do not equal WD, but we don't need WD. This WD is completely different than how it was in Melee, and if we continue trying to make it into how it was in Melee (a spacing tool mainly) then we're going to waste more lines of coding by adding traction and lag onto the beginning of it. Not to mention how we might have to fix any problems which arise with increased traction.

 

[Team Giza]

I want to see vids on how wd homogenizes the game.........Remember there is no finished code yet.

See even if we showed a video about it, though really its obvious, then you would just say "Well thats not gonna be in the final version". Come up with a better idea for how to fine tune the wavedashing and directional airdodge and then we can discuss the problems with that.

 

[Finns7]

Storm thats all unknown unless we try, you can say where wasting time, but I dont think so, brawl+ is not close to being finalized mainly because the fact that most of us play our friends, we need way more play testing we dont want to put out brawl - 2.0 (VB)

And Giza I kno the current form of mad is flawed and the had is hella shafty and doesnt fit. But I dont think a finished mad will homogenize the game.

Im sure people will have problems with this ^ either way, well the same can be said for bad, bad is finished and people have problems with it, personally I dont think bad is bad in b+, but I still want a wd.

 

[storm92]

I have tried, when you can determine something doesn't fit right away I'm fairly certain that's when you really have to look at the idea and go "hm, something here isn't right".
BAD works just fine.

Once again, why fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Shell]

See even if we showed a video about it, though really its obvious, then you would just say "Well thats not gonna be in the final version". Come up with a better idea for how to fine tune the wavedashing and directional airdodge and then we can discuss the problems with that.

What I want to know is what exactly is wrong with the concept of wavedashing in brawl+. So many people say that they don't want wavedashing in brawl+ in any form and to that I ask why?

Is the simple act of being able to slide backwards so odd to you?

I don't want wavedashing in it's current form because it is still a messy mechanic. But...we can fix it. I personally believe wavedashing would be better if it had more lag on it, and only taveled a little bit farther than the character's initial dash animation.

My reasoning? For all distances smaller than the initial dash animation, you can pivot. For all distances after the full run animation, you can dash cancel. However, we are still missing the inbetween (yes, there is an in between). Pivoting is also limited in it's applications because of it's difficulty in many aspects (for instance, pivot up tilts vs wavedash up tilts). That is why I would chose that specific distance for the wavedash to travel.

As for the amount of lag, it is not only to prevent stacking wavedashes, but also to make the act of wavedashing itself punishable. So that it is not the optimal form of movement (as you'd be better of in either a dashing or walking state), but still a unique movement option to add to all the others, with it's own pros and cons.

Now then, that is my little rant about why wavedashing is not necessarily a bad thing. Directional airdodges however, is a completely different subject. However, this is my ideal wavedash, which likely would be extremely dificult to code and take up a lot of space. Were this able to be done without taking a lot of space, I'd wholeheartedly support it, but anything else I'm pretty much against.

This is the last time I'm going to bring Dark Sonic's idea up. Then I'll let you all ignore it in peace.

 

[the_judge]

I have tried, when you can determine something doesn't fit right away I'm fairly certain that's when you really have to look at the idea and go "hm, something here isn't right".
BAD works just fine.

Once again, why fix something that isn't broken.

I'm sorry to bring this up, but vB was never broken. We just weren't satisfied in the new direction the series took.

So we changed it for the better. Same w/ WDing in B+, we believe it would be for the better when every1 is saying that it's making it worse.

And I'm w/ Finns7. Show me footage that clearly shows how bad WDing is messing up B+.

 

[kupo15]

Does Ike still have his stupid counter and eruption slide with HAD? Do a counter/erruption right after a wavedash.