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Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

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Finns7

Smash Ace
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^ with a better had code of course... I like dark sonics proposition maybe its too good.........(hides and cowers to a conrer to not get flamed and virbally castrated by the nephilim approaching as 2012 is near us zomgtehh4x....)

Also storm im talking about trying the best possible Wd type code, if you tried it nvm and can you please post the code because I dont think orca posted it in the op.


Oh and Prob Kupo
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
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Don't worry about sides. Don't worry about a consensus yet. Just ask yourself if Dark Sonic's idea is a reasonable mechanic that could improve Brawl+. If not, point out it's flaws. If you're into constructive criticism, maybe even suggest ways to make it better. Wouldn't that be crazy?
 

Team Giza

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I am pretty sure that I went into detail on what I think would make HAD better a few pages ago. And I have commented on the same idea Dark Sonic is bring up again months ago. I'm much more open to it if its like that but I still would rather fine tune the system for wavelanding and just remove wavedashing.
 

Finns7

Smash Ace
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I would support that ****, im sure others would tot compared to its current form. I think if we get a good code thats finished and trim it up to the most possible smallest length then we should decide if its bad or not.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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I personally think there should be a frame counter after entering the air to where MAD doesn't work and it revers to BAD. There could still be nonstackable wavedashing (which would need balancing, still) without the 4th jump.
 

Shell

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@TeamGiza

I think your wavelanding only idea would be pretty balanced and a good contribution. I have a few minor gripes:

-you can't do platformdashing in brawl (yet?)
-Wavelanding provides a good mix-up option, but doesn't achieve the instant spacing that WD did. And that's what I'd like to preserve, not the movement aspect. Imagine marth, who wants to keep the opponent right at his tip. WD was one way for Marth to stay facing forward (offensive) while still adjusting his spacing to suit him. Adding a significant enough action lag to the WD would be one way to achieve this without promoting everyone to WD for movement's sake or to WD into attacks all the time.

Does anyone else have ideas on how to promote WDing as a spacing tool but not a movement/multi-tool?
Let's get constructive!
 

Archangel

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I think the difference between MAD and BAD is like the difference between Liberals and Concervatives. No matter how good the middle looks neither side will move. as it stands now BADers control the house and few of them have any interest in finding a middle ground. Therefore I'm 99% sure that BAD will be on the official version. I am willing to except it sense I have little say in it at the end. However you can at least try to finished the HAD and make Wavelanding off the edges and platforms possible for those who think it's better overall or funner. So we can simply enjoy the game at home with friends why you Badders enjoy the tourneys your way.
 

Team Giza

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Well instead of having a timer that stops wavedash from my original idea. The timer could be use to make the slide shorter then usual and have a slight amount of lag. That way wavelanding and wavedashing could be balanced separately.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
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@ Spam arrows: Less fighting. More ideas.

TeamGiza I like your thinking.
 

The Cape

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Been playing with it and honestly I hate it.

I like what it does for recoveries and thats it. The WD is stupid and the lack of the cool things you can do on the stage with the BAD have been completely removed.

If we could do it so that you went a direction when you pressed a direction and did a BAD if you pressed nothing, and could remove WDing I think I would LOVE it. But again, thats just me.
 

xicsrh

Smash Cadet
Joined
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If we could do it so that you went a direction when you pressed a direction and did a BAD if you pressed nothing, and could remove WDing I think I would LOVE it. But again, thats just me.
That is Team Giza's proposed idea, I believe. I personally support it, if it could be made. I support a directional airdodge but am neutral to wavedashing.
 

kupo15

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Been playing with it and honestly I hate it.

I like what it does for recoveries and thats it. The WD is stupid and the lack of the cool things you can do on the stage with the BAD have been completely removed.

If we could do it so that you went a direction when you pressed a direction and did a BAD if you pressed nothing, and could remove WDing I think I would LOVE it. But again, thats just me.
I think any form of directional air dodging will always enable WDing. I think its impossible for one to exist without the other
 

The Cape

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Lets go with BAD then. I think it honestly works best with the game. Keeps the flow and works well. It was well designed, but badly implemented (as were most things with Brawl)

Edit: The Brawl Airdodge that is, not the HAD.

Edit2: When people hear "Hacked Brawl" or "Brawl+" Most of them go straight to thinking about Wavedashing, which then leads them to think about how Melee pros were "good because of WDing" or "The people hacking brawl just want their precious WDing and L cancelling back"

The way I look at it is, Brawl got alot more new gamers than Melee did, mostly because it was MUCH easier to pick up. Nothing amazingly technical, just smart play. Brawl+ offers that in the fact that it is really easy to pick up, and you dont have to have insanely good tech skill to play it. It is very beginner friendly with and without alot of depth. Putting in WDing would alienate players as they would think that it was going back to Melee (a tech game) and this would scare away most of the new players that came in with Brawl. By keeping the game simple (technically) it allows for a wealth of new players and all kinds of openings for people to get good at the game really quickly. That was the appeal of the original Brawl and I feel should continue to be the appeal of Brawl+. This game is looking to bring more people to playing it, but that wont happen if we alienate most of the people who play vBrawl as their first competitive smash game by making Brawl+ technical and "scary" like Melee.

In short: WDing makes people think this game is becoming more like Melee and scares away the new community. No WDing = more appeal to the newer people since WDing isnt what made people love Melee.
 

kupo15

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Lets go with BAD then. I think it honestly works best with the game. Keeps the flow and works well. It was well designed, but badly implemented (as were most things with Brawl)

Edit: The Brawl Airdodge that is, not the HAD.
I agree. It just flows really nice.
 

Jiangjunizzy

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i don't think this is an important issue at all. what a ****ing fuss over something that hardly contributes anything to the game- and has a 99% chance of not being used at all.

can we move all this brain-power (or lack of) to something more relevant?
 

The Cape

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i don't think this is an important issue at all. what a ****ing fuss over something that hardly contributes anything to the game- and has a 99% chance of not being used at all.

can we move all this brain-power (or lack of) to something more relevant?
*big cape hug* [/totally gay moment]

WDing (IMO) is bad for Brawl+'s image. Get rid of it (except as a fun code).
 

zxeon

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It has no place in Brawl+ because people won't give it a chance because it's so hated. Because of thier shortcomings.

I don't understand this mentality. When my friends and I found out about Melee ATs we all stepped up to the challange. We practiced and practiced for the love of the game. We weren't big fighting game players either. So you can understand where I'm coming from. This concept is foreign to me.

To me people who love this series transend they don't try to bring others down.

Being weak isn't a crime dragging people down with you is.
 

kupo15

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I dont hate wavedashing, I just feel that it has no place in Brawl+.

Melee WD is excellent, Brawl+ WD isnt really very good.
Yea, we have said this countless times but it somehow doesn't get across.

Zxeon, I don't see how you don't see how different wavedashing is in brawl+ opposed to melee.
 

petre

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It has no place in Brawl+ because people won't give it a chance because it's so hated.

I don't understand this mentality.When my friends and I found out about Melee ATs we all stepped up to the challange. We practiced and practiced for the love of the game. We weren't big fighting game players either. So you can understand where I'm coming from. This concept is foreign to me.

To me people who love this series transend they don't try to bring others down.
this is completely different from 'discovering something in a game'. we are actually MAKING the game. it's now a question of 'is it necessary?', not 'is it useful?'.
 

The Cape

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In Melee WDing was useful and balanced.

In Brawl+ it is definetly not balanced and with all the speed increases to the game it honestly feels better without it. The BAD system is great the way it is, and the WDing doesnt bring anything new to the game. In Melee, WDing was awesome, useable, and not broken. In Brawl+ its kind of broken.

I did give it a chance, when the code first came out I played with it, and I played with it now. It does not fit into the game in the least.
 

zxeon

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It is not our responsibility in the first place to introduce exploits in the physics of the game.
It's no different from DD and DC. Since we practically broke Brawl dashing in half with it.

No one ever says "You shouldn't be able to turn around if you start running in one direction no matter how quickly you input the command" or "You shouldn't be able to duck until after you have stopped running and finished your skidding animation" but as soon as people start sliding arcross the ground we have a problem.
 

kupo15

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It's no different from DD and DC. Since we practically broke Brawl dashing in half with it.

No one ever says "You shouldn't be able to turn around if you start running in one direction no matter how quickly you input the command" or "You shouldn't be able to duck until after you have stopped running and finished your skidding animation" but as soon as people start sliding arcross the ground we have a problem.
unlike wding, those actually fit and are not broken. They were also intended techniques in melee and not an exploit that we are carrying over which will most certainly imbalance the game and or not fit in a COMPLETELY different physics engine. An engine specifically designed to not support WDing
 

zxeon

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unlike wding, those actually fit and are not broken. They were also intended techniques in melee and not an exploit that we are carrying over which will most certainly imbalance the game and or not fit in a COMPLETELY different physics engine. An engine specifically designed to not support WDing
How can you say that this engine was built to support DDing or DCing? Where you there when they were making the game? They certainly don't work the same way that they did in Melee or SSB64 in the case of DD. We just got lucky with those. Even if they hadn't worked all that well people would still have worked to make it better as opposed to WDing.

You can stop throwing around the word "exploit" since the meaning can easily change from person to person. Why don't you refer to it as an Advanced Techinque which is all it really is.
 

the_judge

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D@mmit Sakurai, look at what you've done.
We're argueing over a modded version of your game since you didn't like us competitive players using the game's mechanics and a couple of AT's that made Melee more fun.
You took out everything in Brawl, we put it back in, and in the end no one is satisfied still.
 

kupo15

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How can you say that this engine was built to support DDing or DCing? Where you there when they were making the game? They certainly don't work the same way that they did in Melee or SSB64 in the case of DD. We just got lucky with those. Even if they hadn't worked all that well people would still have worked to make it better as opposed to WDing.

It wouldn't have been this easy and short lines to make nor would it have fit like a glove so quickly
You can stop throwing around the word "exploit" since the meaning can easily change from person to person. Why don't you refer to it as an Advanced Techinque which is all it really is.
Its an AT on an exploit. Its an exploit because you were using the AD system in an unintended way
 

zxeon

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It wouldn't have been this easy and short lines to make nor would it have fit like a glove so quickly

Its an AT on an exploit. Its an exploit because you were using the AD system in an unintended way
I think they always intended us to airdodge downward. And they knew about it before release and all that jazz.
 

Jiangjunizzy

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I see it this way. We are essentially designing the next Smash Bros game. A completely new, fresh product that advances the formula of Super Smash Brothers.

When a company designs a product, they take and expand upon the features that worked from the past games, remove the features that didn't work too well (or fix them), and streamline the gameplay and other things out (this is important).

Brawl+, no matter what we do, will never be as technical or as fast paced as melee. Never. So, instead of dwell upon the fact that the clickity clack players won't shine as brightly as the creative players, we should capitalize on this strength, and try to streamline the gameplay, similar to how Apple makes their products very easy to use, yet very efficient and versatile. An example of a step towards this simplification is the reduction of aerial lag. Much like Brawl simplified jump canceled up smashes, fox's shine, and a plethora of other things, we should do what we can to remove any completely tech based abilities (and honestly i don't think there many if any left) that have messy button inputs or unneeded complexities without compromising the underlying strategems that are present within the developed metagames of the overall smash bros franchise, so that means that things like no tripping and auto ledge snapping will have to go (and go they have).

So what does this have to do with Wavedashing?

Wavedashing is a messy button input, and is unneedingly complex. I don't care if you wavedash in your sleep. I don't care used bells and catnip to train your cat to wavedash. It's unnecessarily complex and it is in COMPLETE contrary to the whole theme of Brawl+, which is simplifying the gameplay yet keeping the intense, skillfull and fun. Fighting games usually have very simple button inputs, but it's up to you to perform them strategically. Imagine presenting a new fighting game to a huge audience of gamers, you show them all these new features, faster aerials, shield stun, combos, then on the last slide of your power point presentation, you show them the wavedash and an accompanying video to show how it is done.. They would be appalled! Booo! What the hell? Are they trying to break my fingers?? What the heck kind of button input is that? Why didn't they streamline it?

What I love about Brawl+ is that unlike melee, it's very blunt with you. It doesn't play hard to get. It spreads its legs wide open and lets you bask at all that it has to offer. You don't need to worry about any extraneous stuff; every tool that is available is present to you; it is simply up to you to make use of them. And wavedash isn't a tool that falls within this school of knowledge. It's obscure, it's grandiose, and honestly, doesn't do much of anything. If we need better spacing tools, why don't we think of a better, more effecient way of accomplishing this, then resurrecting something that was an exploit of ANOTHER game's air dodge system.

And that's my 2 cents.
 

petre

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I think they always intended us to airdodge downward. And they knew about it before release and all that jazz.
they obviously knew what would happen when you airdodged into a surface, seeing as how they programmed it to keep you from going through the surface. but what they didn't know then is how much people would use the sliding as an alternate form of movement. it was just that way because it's the most logical way of dealing with what to do when you airdodge into a surface (as opposed to the alternative where you would stop completely when you hit a surface or would go through).
 

kupo15

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I think they always intended us to airdodge downward. And they knew about it before release and all that jazz.
So your saying they honestly knew of every exploit in the game today and that they intended us to be able to do the things we can do now. Don't play the devils advocate zxeon. They intended wavedashing to make the game not crash but you cant honestly think they intended it to be exploited like that. Its pretty well known and agreed that wavedashing is an exploit that and its effects were not intended whether you like it or not.
 

zxeon

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they obviously knew what would happen when you airdodged into a surface, seeing as how they programmed it to keep you from going through the surface. but what they didn't know then is how much people would use the sliding as an alternate form of movement. it was just that way because it's the most logical way of dealing with what to do when you airdodge into a surface (as opposed to the alternative where you would stop completely when you hit a surface or would go through).
That's what happens with most mechanics programed into games People take them far beyond the creators expectations. In that way it's ok to to call them exploits but you can't give only one a negative connotation. Some combo's are an exploit of hitstun because at some point they exceed the creators original intentions.
 

kupo15

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That's what happens with most mechanics programed into games People take them far beyond the creators expectations. In that way it's ok to to call them exploits but you can't give only one a negative connotation. Some combo's are an exploit of hitstun because at some point they exceed the creators original intentions.
How the hell do you exploit hitstun? I seriously want to know...
 
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