Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[the_judge]

Some combo's are an exploit of hitstun because at some point they exceed the creators original intentions.

Like 64 Falcon?
Exploit is now the #1 word in this thread.

 

[zxeon]

Like 64 Falcon?
Exploit is now the #1 word in this thread.

Like that yes.

Exploit is the name of the game.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

zxeon you make me hate toon link

 

[Starscream]

zxeon you make me hate toon link

Hahaha, that's awesome.

 

[zxeon]

zxeon you make me hate toon link

You're welcome.

 

[MuBa]

Well I did make a proposal to Air Dashing >_>

Basically a Melee Airdodge but going at a slight downward arc (takes away your 2nd jump mind you) while giving the ability to attack after certain amount of frames during the animation...you know kinda like Mega Man X's air dash.

That could make the game more interesting. If you guys can expand on my little idea then I'd be more than willing to hear it.

 

[CountKaiser]

While that is interesting, that is something for the air game, Muba.

Personally, I would like to try some kind of backpedaling mechanic. Being able to face your opponent as you walk or run away.

 

[Makkun]

While that is interesting, that is something for the air game, Muba.

Personally, I would like to try some kind of backpedaling mechanic. Being able to face your opponent as you walk or run away.

EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE IRC DDD:< People didn't seem to like it. ): I think it would be awesome though. I'm all for airdashing though, as well.

Walking backwards, such as in Street Fighter or other traditional fighting games. This would be awesome, and would also make wavedashing basically obsolete. (For anyone who still wanted it in)

 

[MuBa]

EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE IRC DDD:< People didn't seem to like it. ): I think it would be awesome though. I'm all for airdashing though, as well.

Walking backwards, such as in Street Fighter or other traditional fighting games. This would be awesome, and would also make wavedashing basically obsolete. (For anyone who still wanted it in)

I honestly don't see the point of having a backwards walk (Street Fighter style) when you're able to attack in the opposite direction anyway. It sounds like a cool idea but I just don't see the use of it unless there must be something I'm missing here

 

[Dan_X]

Are they trying to break my fingers?? What the heck kind of button input is that?

You know, you bring up good points, however, I must say that wavedashing is not hard to do in Brawl... It's no where near as technical as it was in Melee. There's no way that it would "break your fingers." It's really easy to do.

Why didn't they streamline it?

Perhaps you'd be willing to streamline wavedashing for us? Think of something new? I don't care about wavedashing as a word, as it quite obviously has a whole host of negative connotations, I care about wavedashing for its function, for its spacing. You have to admit, no matter how you look at it, that it is entirely unique from dash dancing, and dash canceling, and as such I believe it has something to add to the fray.

It's a great spacing tool, and is great alongside DDing and DCing. Call it what you want, call it Ice Skating for all I care, I still think it benefits Brawl. If you can think of a way to "streamline it" I'd be more than willing to try it out.

Please, for those of you who are utterly against wavedashing, do not deny it's usefulness; what it has to offer. How can someone honestly say that it doesn't add anything to the game? The inclusion of it, in my honest opinion, makes the game a ton more interesting. In midst of pursuing your opponent, you can attack them, charge into them, and before clashing, WD backwards, faking them out, then immediately run in for the attack, which could lead to a combo. It's great.

You know, people talk about homogenized movement, and I understand their sentiments, but to them I ask... haven't we already implemented some things that in their own way homogenize the cast? What about dashdancing? Most characters have relatively the same dashdance, and DDing is used for approaches, so the approaches have already become homogenized because generally it's best to dashdance. Why wouldn't you dashdance? Wavedashing is similar in that, the ACT of wavedashing is homogenized. However, like DDing, what matters is how the character/player uses WDing and DDing as an approach. What matters is what they do out of the DDing and WDing. Said opportunities will differ from character to character. So it's really not that homogenized in the end, because each character will have different and yet some similar options.

In the end, if you guys don't like HAD, that's fine. If you hate wavedashing, that's fine to. But, do you really hate wavedashing for what it does? Or, do you instead hate how it's implemented? If you can think of a way to "streamline" it, please do, as I said, I'd love to try it. While you're at it, if you're capable of streamlining it, please feel free to rename WDing. Because no matter how well it works, even if it was "perfect" so long as it's called "wavedash" than we have a problem.

P.S. I'm not going to deny for a SECOND that HAD is to facilitate wavedashing, by and large. Sure it was to add something slightly different to the air game, but one of the major points of HAD is wavedashing. I'm sick of people asking for a HAD without WDing, what's the point? Wavelanding is great, some of you suggest only allowing wavelanding..... okay. How? It's the same input as WDing. It's the same act. When you jump, you dodge into the ground at an angle and thus you wavedash. When you fall, you dodge down at and angle and thus you wavedash. It's essentially the same thing. Even if it could be separated, and one could only waveland, it'd still lack the spacing that WDing offers. When I asked for HAD, I did so on the basis that I saw Iggly say that he wants to make a code, but couldn't think of anything to write, so he asked for some ideas. I innocently projected HAD, as it has been formed by many, in numerous discussions regarding HAD. It just so happened that Phantom Wings saw my request, and took it up. If I was thinking outside the box, trying to think of a way to "streamline" wavedashing, sure, I'd have done that, but instead I went with something that we're familiar with. I didn't make up HAD as we now know it, there were many ideas for HAD in the beginning, this just became the most popular back when HAD was first being thought up....

P.S. Guys, what the heck is "Air Dashing?"

 

[MuBa]

Brawl+, no matter what we do, will never be as technical or as fast paced as melee. Never.

I have to disagree when it comes to the speed of Brawl+'s gameplay. Considering the the fact that we can CHANGE the variables of ANYTHING around in this game we can make Brawl+ faster paced than Melee any time we want.

 

[alex3]

i thought you guys wanted to keep brawl accessible to newcomers and such? why would you go and implement this drastic change with "air dash?"

 

[goodoldganon]

I think it's just a fun idea alex. A code might be made one day but I doubt it would make it into a final codeset.

Also, I agree with everything Jiang said.

 

[Dan_X]

I think it's just a fun idea alex. A code might be made one day but I doubt it would make it into a final codeset.

Also, I agree with everything Jiang said.

I don't disagree with his main points, however I can't help but retort certain things.

A) Wavedashing is easy in Brawl.

B) Invent for me a "streamlined" spacing tool that facilitates what wavedash does and I'll be happy.

 

[MuBa]

B) Invent for me a "streamlined" spacing tool that facilitates what wavedash does and I'll be happy.

Air Dash maybe...?

1. Stand
2. Jump
3. Air Dash (Beginning)
4-5. downward arc and land (waveland perhaps?)

 

[Blank Mauser]

I see it this way. We are essentially designing the next Smash Bros game. A completely new, fresh product that advances the formula of Super Smash Brothers.

When a company designs a product, they take and expand upon the features that worked from the past games, remove the features that didn't work too well (or fix them), and streamline the gameplay and other things out (this is important).

Brawl+, no matter what we do, will never be as technical or as fast paced as melee. Never. So, instead of dwell upon the fact that the clickity clack players won't shine as brightly as the creative players, we should capitalize on this strength, and try to streamline the gameplay, similar to how Apple makes their products very easy to use, yet very efficient and versatile. An example of a step towards this simplification is the reduction of aerial lag. Much like Brawl simplified jump canceled up smashes, fox's shine, and a plethora of other things, we should do what we can to remove any completely tech based abilities (and honestly i don't think there many if any left) that have messy button inputs or unneeded complexities without compromising the underlying strategems that are present within the developed metagames of the overall smash bros franchise, so that means that things like no tripping and auto ledge snapping will have to go (and go they have).

So what does this have to do with Wavedashing?

Wavedashing is a messy button input, and is unneedingly complex. I don't care if you wavedash in your sleep. I don't care used bells and catnip to train your cat to wavedash. It's unnecessarily complex and it is in COMPLETE contrary to the whole theme of Brawl+, which is simplifying the gameplay yet keeping the intense, skillfull and fun. Fighting games usually have very simple button inputs, but it's up to you to perform them strategically. Imagine presenting a new fighting game to a huge audience of gamers, you show them all these new features, faster aerials, shield stun, combos, then on the last slide of your power point presentation, you show them the wavedash and an accompanying video to show how it is done.. They would be appalled! Booo! What the hell? Are they trying to break my fingers?? What the heck kind of button input is that? Why didn't they streamline it?

What I love about Brawl+ is that unlike melee, it's very blunt with you. It doesn't play hard to get. It spreads its legs wide open and lets you bask at all that it has to offer. You don't need to worry about any extraneous stuff; every tool that is available is present to you; it is simply up to you to make use of them. And wavedash isn't a tool that falls within this school of knowledge. It's obscure, it's grandiose, and honestly, doesn't do much of anything. If we need better spacing tools, why don't we think of a better, more effecient way of accomplishing this, then resurrecting something that was an exploit of ANOTHER game's air dodge system.

And that's my 2 cents.

I like it more when people do things that aren't pick and choose situations, where they bend the rules and surprise people. I doubt many people from competitive communities would be so "appalled" by wavedashing. Look at other fighting game communities. They practically focus on breaking the game. MvC2 has tons of broken infinites and combos that require insane tech skill, crazy fast button inputs and timing to pull off. Theres even a huge DVD that showcases some of the most creative combos and its all from the work of people who are willing to take a game to its limits. Fighting game communities always look to do that with every game.

Wavedashing adds tons of options with JC moves and techs, and we've yet to even let the community test its uses so how can anybody say its just the ability to slide or whatever. Its not so alien a technique because its from Melee, so no I don't think its overstepping boundaries. Anyone who thinks its just clickity clack showoff skills and overshadows creativity isn't doing much with it, because applying it takes creativity too.

 

[MuBa]

The main thing I'm really worried about wavedashing is the stupid stigmata people would give off Brawl+ as MELEE 2.0

 

[kupo15]

Orca: The method of getting WDing does a lot more harm than good. You can't just say WDing is great and forget about the harm it does to the rest of the game. In any case, WDing is sloppy and looks sloppy and I don't think it has that much to offer considering all the other uses melee's had are taken away from brawls game mechanics. You don't need it for spacing either. You have DDing and many other ways to space yourself that you don't need to add ANOTHER spacing tool to help you out. You don't need wavedashinig to space yourself successfully and it just doesn't fit in brawl's movement IMO

Blank are there even JC moves?

Zxeon: I still am waiting for my answer as to how you can exploit hitstun. A one word sentence w/o an explanation doesn't suffice.

 

[Archangel]

So your saying they honestly knew of every exploit in the game today and that they intended us to be able to do the things we can do now. Don't play the devils advocate zxeon. They intended wavedashing to make the game not crash but you cant honestly think they intended it to be exploited like that. Its pretty well known and agreed that wavedashing is an exploit that and its effects were not intended whether you like it or not.

Snake's Dash Upsmash or Metaknight's Infinite Cape. However these abilities still got threw and were people use them. If Wavedashing is an exploit then so are half the moves on Brawl. Are you going to band those moves as well? What about Wolves ability to go threw walls with his side B move? You taking that out as well Kupo ol pal? I told you guys yesterday what was going to happen. BADers hold the cards....they win. THE END

 

[kupo15]

Snake's Dash Upsmash or Metaknight's Infinite Cape. However these abilities still got threw and were people use them. If Wavedashing is an exploit then so are half the moves on Brawl. Are you going to band those moves as well? What about Wolves ability to go threw walls with his side B move? You taking that out as well Kupo ol pal? I told you guys yesterday what was going to happen. BADers hold the cards....they win. THE END

Do you have anything better to do then to spam our threads?

 

[Shell]

I completely agree with Jiang's post. Accessibility is very important to the game.

I also think that a quick, easy to use yet balanced spacing tool would be a great contribution to Brawl+, and I agree with his mentality that it doesn't need to be a recycled mechanic, but can be (almost) anything we can construct.

To separate this creative process from the stale, stigma-laden WD, I suggest opening a new thread. Does anyone else like the idea of an easy-to-use but balanced spacing tool? If there's enough interest in brain-storming, I will create a (strictly moderated) thread on our forums for discussion.

 

[zxeon]

I completely agree with Jiang's post. Accessibility is very important to the game.

I also think that a quick, easy to use yet balanced spacing tool would be a great contribution to Brawl+, and I agree with his mentality that it doesn't need to be a recycled mechanic, but can be (almost) anything we can construct.

To separate this creative process from the stale, stigma-laden WD, I suggest opening a new thread. Does anyone else like the idea of an easy-to-use but balanced spacing tool? If there's enough interest in brain-storming, I will create a (strictly moderated) thread on our forums for discussion.

Why not? Let's get started.

 

[kupo15]

I completely agree with Jiang's post. Accessibility is very important to the game.

I also think that a quick, easy to use yet balanced spacing tool would be a great contribution to Brawl+, and I agree with his mentality that it doesn't need to be a recycled mechanic, but can be (almost) anything we can construct.

To separate this creative process from the stale, stigma-laden WD, I suggest opening a new thread. Does anyone else like the idea of an easy-to-use but balanced spacing tool? If there's enough interest in brain-storming, I will create a (strictly moderated) thread on our forums for discussion.

I don't think we need anymore spacing tools tbh. DDing and DCing are easy enough, combined with jumping a little and your characters special way to space and control the field with their moves are more than enough ways to effectively space yourself

 

[Archangel]

Do you have anything better to do then to spam our threads?

I'm not Spamming. This is my last post on this thread. I'm giving up on the game....the Air dodge game that's being played. The whole us vs them. Even you saying "Our" Thread. It's not good for the Brawl+ community. Agreed. Peace.

 

[Shell]

I know jiang, MuBa, Dark Sonic, and zxeon would be opened to brainstorm alternatives, anyone else? I think I'll set up the thread over there later tonight. Work on ideas.

Kupo, I respect your stance on the spacing, but who knows? Maybe someone will come up with an idea that really clicks. If not, no one's loss -- we'll move on.

 

[The Cape]

"I need to space backwards" (Runs backwards and crouches). "Wow, that was easy"

As for the HAD I did a bit more testing. It seems that it helps some more recoveries than I initially thought.

Snake can AD to the ledge when caught under a platform, and AD to the ledge from below to avoid being hit out of his recovery.
Gives Falco and Wolf more distance to the ledge
Gives the grapplers (Olimar, Ivysaur, etc) more distance towards the ledge before they need to up and B.
Gives Sonic an ability to get a bit more distance after his up and B.
Recovery seems to be its best use.

Also, the one thing that made me actually like it was that Samus can do Jump, AD, to grapple and it hits just above the ground *giggles*

Overall I still really dont like it too much.

 

[Dan_X]

I know jiang, MuBa, Dark Sonic, and zxeon would be opened to brainstorm alternatives, anyone else? I think I'll set up the thread over there later tonight. Work on ideas.

Kupo, I respect your stance on the spacing, but who knows? Maybe someone will come up with an idea that really clicks. If not, no one's loss -- we'll move on.

Sign me up, I'd love to try something that we the community created. Why not? We can do anything!

"I need to space backwards" (Runs backwards and crouches). "Wow, that was easy"

As for the HAD I did a bit more testing. It seems that it helps some more recoveries than I initially thought.

Snake can AD to the ledge when caught under a platform, and AD to the ledge from below to avoid being hit out of his recovery.
Gives Falco and Wolf more distance to the ledge
Gives the grapplers (Olimar, Ivysaur, etc) more distance towards the ledge before they need to up and B.
Gives Sonic an ability to get a bit more distance after his up and B.
Recovery seems to be its best use.

Also, the one thing that made me actually like it was that Samus can do Jump, AD, to grapple and it hits just above the ground *giggles*

Overall I still really dont like it too much.

Would you be interested in some sort of additional spacing tech that acts in someway to facilitate the idea behind WDing, made exclusively by the community? Better yet, would you have any interest with regards to what we should do, or should not do? I myself am open to trying something new, I'd be interested to see if someone can utterly surprise me with a really unique idea that's appealing to new comers.

 

[kupo15]

I know jiang, MuBa, Dark Sonic, and zxeon would be opened to brainstorm alternatives, anyone else? I think I'll set up the thread over there later tonight. Work on ideas.

Kupo, I respect your stance on the spacing, but who knows? Maybe someone will come up with an idea that really clicks. If not, no one's loss -- we'll move on.

Call me closed minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of more options like this. I fear that anything new will take imbalance the characters more because you can control the stage more than you should. I also feel that anything new will make the natural spacing from moves obsolete and I don't like that. I think the smash formula is perfect as is but w.e I guess

 

[Finns7]

I dont believe DD and Dc give you the same options wd can. Wd Is not needed but what is needed in braw+? Some additions arnt needed but still add to great game that is b+. Also if people say this will be melee 2.0 because pros wavedash or w/e there prob nubz, I doubt they know anything about how to compete at the high levels of play in melee or brawl....


Im down for some type, if we can make it so you can crouch during the inintial dash at any times maybe that could give us some type of wd, but idk about that.

 

[The Cape]

I really dont think we need another tech to facilitate spacing. The came has plenty of options as it is now and we really dont need to be submitting more time or resources to find something new. Why cant we concentrate on what really needs fixed right now first?

 

[Finns7]

^ We should of been concentrating on far more important things before the other codes that where really wants instead of needs, like fixing grab releases ect.

All 3 have diff uses, I dont think it would be that broken or op.

 

[Shell]

I really dont think we need another tech to facilitate spacing. The came has plenty of options as it is now and we really dont need to be submitting more time or resources to find something new. Why cant we concentrate on what really needs fixed right now first?

Yeah, I guess you're right. While I'm unconvinced that a new tech would necessarily be a bad thing, I'll wait to create a thread to discuss it until the rest of our important codes (inc. character tweaks) are completed.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Orca: The method of getting WDing does a lot more harm than good. You can't just say WDing is great and forget about the harm it does to the rest of the game. In any case, WDing is sloppy and looks sloppy and I don't think it has that much to offer considering all the other uses melee's had are taken away from brawls game mechanics. You don't need it for spacing either. You have DDing and many other ways to space yourself that you don't need to add ANOTHER spacing tool to help you out. You don't need wavedashinig to space yourself successfully and it just doesn't fit in brawl's movement IMO

Blank are there even JC moves?

Zxeon: I still am waiting for my answer as to how you can exploit hitstun. A one word sentence w/o an explanation doesn't suffice.

Pikachu's QAC, Sonic's spindash, along with a few reflectors (When they actually reflect something) can be JC'ed. Maybe more I don't know. There are also moves that can be canceled by airdodge and ledge cancelable moves that could benefit from some applications of wavedash.

Pikachu's QAC and Sonic's spindash are just the ones that stick out the most to me because they're my mains. I'm sure there are more applications.

 

[Strong Badam]

JC moves?
Running upsmash/up-b, or those two out of shield.

 

[kupo15]

I dont believe DD and Dc give you the same options wd can. Wd Is not needed but what is needed in braw+? Some additions arnt needed but still add to great game that is b+. Also if people say this will be melee 2.0 because pros wavedash or w/e there prob nubz, I doubt they know anything about how to compete at the high levels of play in melee or brawl....


Im down for some type, if we can make it so you can crouch during the inintial dash at any times maybe that could give us some type of wd, but idk about that.

Similarly I can say that anyone who thinks WDing is needed for this game to be good doesn't know how to make a good game


I think we should perfect the original design before thinking about new stuff. We shouldn't waste our efforts there now.

 

[Makkun]

I know jiang, MuBa, Dark Sonic, and zxeon would be opened to brainstorm alternatives, anyone else? I think I'll set up the thread over there later tonight. Work on ideas.

Kupo, I respect your stance on the spacing, but who knows? Maybe someone will come up with an idea that really clicks. If not, no one's loss -- we'll move on.

I'm definitely for a "brainstorming" thread. Although the IRC works well for it...

 

[storm92]

JC moves?
Running upsmash/up-b, or those two out of shield.

To run Usmash just Usmash while dashing ._.

Important codes out of the way first, then we can worry about further techs if we see it necessary by that time.

 

[petre]

Pikachu's QAC, Sonic's spindash, along with a few reflectors (When they actually reflect something) can be JC'ed. Maybe more I don't know. There are also moves that can be canceled by airdodge and ledge cancelable moves that could benefit from some applications of wavedash.

Pikachu's QAC and Sonic's spindash are just the ones that stick out the most to me because they're my mains. I'm sure there are more applications.

no, no, no. jump cancelling is when you CANCEL your JUMP with another action.

the way you perform an usmash, as we all know, is by tapping up and pressing A (ignore the cstick for now plz). however, it would be very hard to input both of these on the exact same frame. to rectify this problem, the game was programmed to allow you some time to press A after pressing up, and still perform an upsmash. when you press up alone, you normally jump. however pressing A before you leave the ground will cancel the jump and perform an upsmash.

now in melee, normally when running you could only perform a dash attack (even with the cstick). however by jumping (press up) for whatever reason the game defaults to saying you are in standing animation for the time you are still on the ground right before you actually leave the ground. pressing A in this time would then result in a usmash (up + A). this same concept can be applied to grabs so you can perform your standing grab animation during a run by jumping during a run and then grabbing before you actually leave the ground, because the game thinks you are standing during the first frames of a jump. and since you could jump while shielding to immediately exit the shield, you could perform any of these actions from a shield instead of having to wait for the shield drop animation to finish.

alot of this is carried over to brawl, except they simplified JC usmashes so you don't have to jump before you usmash, you can just press the cstick up anytime to usmash. you can still JC usmash out of shield though, so it's still possible, just simplified. however JCgrabs are no longer possible, because sakurai loves his pivot grab too much and you can no longer grab at all before a jump.

note: all cases of up + A or usmash can be replace with up + B

sorry for the offtopic rant, i just can't stand people running around using wrong terminology.

 

[kupo15]

Yea and QAC is not a JC move either.

 

[leafgreen386]

@petre: have you ever heard of a JC shine? "Jump cancel" can refer to both canceling a jump with something and canceling something with a jump. The terminology used was correct in that post (with the exception of pika's QAC since it actually causes you to bounce off the ground very slightly putting you into your neutral falling position while still in the air).