Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[zxeon]

Yo momma was having a shootout all over the table.

ROFL! That is discusting Falco.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

because we want to you dufus and you can't stop us

nanana na naaaa naaaaaaa

 

[Dark Sonic]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

I played melee competitively. I still do. In fact, I may just go cross the country on a trip that costs several hundreds of dollars to get to GENISIS, a major melee tournament (I'm working on how to make it more affordable). But you know what? I want to play Sonic the ****ing hedgehog, and melee won't let me. But brawl is a terrible game and I don't want to play that sorry piece of ****. But then this project comes along and I can change that last one (the brawl being a piece of **** thing) and you're saying that I'm a bad person because of it? I want to play as my favorite character and am actively pursuing that goal, and you think you can stop me? Under the scrubish notion that we should not use the tools available to us, but rather completely ignore this unique opportunity for your skewed sense of morality?

**** YOU!

And MuBa, you don't know that it will be more balanced, you're just supposing.

Because we will make it more balanced that's why! It is an evolving project, not limited to one iteration.

 

[Skrah]

Then why are you here?

MookieRah once said:
"Screw that, I want Fun Speed Activate!"
I rest my case

Cause I don't agree and want to debate. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start a flame war, but I need a concrete answer and you're not giving it to me.

Well, we have the tools to balance the game as much or as little as we want, so yes, it is a fair thing to say that brawl+ will be more balanced than melee.

That's just my point. By implementing these changes into Brawl, you would send all metagame into disarray. If you decided to nerf MK (which I agree on) all MK users would feel awkward with him, at least for a while. If, lets say, everyone did the changes to brawl, and suddenly you decide this or that isn't unfair, and that you must change it, then EVERYONE would have to change it too.

Or imagine the tourneys. What if some tourneys didn't accept Brawl+ or w/e? If players with Brawl+ wanted to go, they would have to practice with the OTHER Brawl, and when the tourny is over they would have to input the codes again.

 

[Revven]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

And MuBa, you don't know that it will be more balanced, you're just supposing. From what I've read it would be even more broken than it already is.

Edit: Wanted to edit, not double post..

Because both of those games don't have the characters Brawl does and as such, vBrawl didn't do those characters justice competitively so, why NOT modify Brawl into our own game? We're already too far into it to quit so, don't even try to change our minds.

And, not everything sounds good on paper, you have to try it before you make an opinion, which is the exact opposite of what you're doing. I'm sorry sir, but, I think I'm going to have to go to your house, steal your Wii, put the HBC onto it and force you to try it.

 

[Shadic]

What do you mean, inputting the codes? If you want to play Brawl, pick such on the Wii Menu, if you want Brawl+, go through the Homebrew channel. It's really not complicated at all.

And we like Brawl, along with the changes that it has made. The stages, the characters, the music, the rebalancing of the characters. However, we find that some of it is flawed, and we have the ability to change things. And so we are.

 

[Almas]

You realise that enabling/disabling codes is literally five seconds work, decided when you load up Brawl?

You can make the same claims about what Brawl is to Melee. The skills of each, while transferable, are still distinct. I can't practise Melee for a week then expect to beat all my friends at Brawl. Why should the same be true of Brawl to Brawl+?

Care must be taken when tweaking a game to ensure balance, I agree. But the operative feature here is that the game CAN be tweaked. With a suitable governing body, a standard is set up. Changes are only made when they clearly benefit the overall game, and at a careful and controlled pace. At the moment we are living in chaos, trying to discover exactly what each character can do. But once the bulk of codes desired are available and set up, it can settle.

 

[zxeon]

You chose the wrong thread to troll Skrah

 

[the_judge]

@Skrah: Um, you did get an answer (though it wasn't from me)

@Dark Sonic and Falco400: lol

 

[Skrah]

Because both of those games don't have the characters Brawl does and as such, vBrawl didn't do those characters justice competitively so, why NOT modify Brawl into our own game? We're already too far into it to quit so, don't even try to change our minds.

And, not everything sounds good on paper, you have to try it before you make an opinion, which is the exact opposite of what you're doing. I'm sorry sir, but, I think I'm going to have to go to your house, steal your Wii, put the HBC onto it and force you to try it.

Finally I get an answer! Wanting to do so because of the characters is completely valid. I was just stating the difficulties that may arise on the run, don't get all pissed off because of some resistance lol. And by all means, continue, I actually had a good lol at people saying I was a bad person cause I didn't want you to do this and that I wanted to change your mind

Excuse me and my "screwed sense of morality", and please don't break into my house.

 

[Revven]

Finally I get an answer! Wanting to do so because of the characters is completely valid. I was just stating the difficulties that may arise on the run, don't get all pissed off because of some resistance lol. And by all means, continue, I actually had a good lol at people saying I was a bad person cause I didn't want you to do this and that I wanted to change your mind

Excuse me and my "screwed sense of morality", and please don't break into my house.

That's just one answer though, there are plenty more reasons too as stated above by a few other posts after mine.

And I'll do whatever I want!

*Breaks into your house* >_>

 

[Blank Mauser]

Have you been PLAYING Brawl+ with hitstun at all? Or wut? This whole time you've been talking, it sounds like you DON'T play it with it hitstun, BAD is NOT OP in B+ like it is in vB. If you HAVE been playing it, play it with some GOOD people and I guarantee you that you'll come out of it saying "BAD isn't as bad as I thought it was."

You're arguing for MAD in a HAD thread, you want MAD, you don't want BAD because you're basing all your facts and **** on what happened in vB which has YET TO HAPPEN in B+. You claim you know **** yet you don't know **** when it comes to the discussion at hand, you're already throwing yourself off topic by supporting MAD so wtf are you doing?

Hell, one of your "cons" from earlier on in the topic against BAD was that it cancels hitstun when IT DOES NOT in B+, the code restricts attacking and or ADing to cancel the hitstun THEREFORE it is not as OP anymore.

A ton of things make vBrawl a campfest. I'll list them:

1. Shield grabbing is too good
2. Shielding is too safe
3. Projectile spamming is Godly
4. Spamming moves is safe despite the decay system (see Wolf Fsmash, Dsmash, MK Dsmash and Shuttle Loop).
5. Perfect Shielding helps both sides but, caters more to the approacher however happens mostly on accident than anything else.
6. People. Never. Die.
7. Getting a Star KO is like trying to shove something up your ***.
8. Camping is too good of a strategy and can always overcome someone who is actually skillful.
9. Meta Knight is too good.
10. Planking/ledge stalling is overpowered
11. The edgeguarding game is crap.
12. Air dodging is ridiculously good
13. Hitstun is nonexistent
14. Chaingrabs and infinites rule the game.
15. People ACTUALLY have to debate whether or not infinites should be banned. WTF??

Did I forget anything else? I probably did, but, you get the point. All these things make vBrawl a campfest (you gotta camp against MK for #9). The game is just TOO defensive and is like rock paper scissors (not that there's anything wrong with that, however, it's a problem when rock doesn't beat rock ala shielding), it's NOTHING like Smash 64 or Melee.

Blank, GTFO of the thread, your only purpose in this thread so far has been to annoy everyone with your ******** logic.

RAAAGGEEEE

See I wanted to say that maybe YOU should play with better people but the fact that you beat me to it already makes me feel bad. I'm getting out of this thread but its not for Brawl+'s benefit, its for mine. =\

EDIT: Also those things aren't dominant at a high level of play.

EDIT2: Nvrm.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I was just stating the difficulties that may arise on the run

We've already thought of that.

don't get all pissed off because of some resistance lol.

Don't ask stupid questions

And by all means, continue, I actually had a good lol at people saying I was a bad person cause I didn't want you to do this and that I wanted to change your mind

You're a bad person because you're trying to dictate your beliefs to other people. Simply put, don't tell us what we can and can't do.

Excuse me and my "screwed sense of morality", and please don't break into my house.

Skewed, not screwed.

 

[leafgreen386]

Cause I don't agree and want to debate. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start a flame war, but I need a concrete answer and you're not giving it to me.



That's just my point. By implementing these changes into Brawl, you would send all metagame into disarray. If you decided to nerf MK (which I agree on) all MK users would feel awkward with him, at least for a while. If, lets say, everyone did the changes to brawl, and suddenly you decide this or that isn't unfair, and that you must change it, then EVERYONE would have to change it too.

Or imagine the tourneys. What if some tourneys didn't accept Brawl+ or w/e? If players with Brawl+ wanted to go, they would have to practice with the OTHER Brawl, and when the tourny is over they would have to input the codes again.

There will be brawl tournies, and then there will be brawl+ tournies. They're separate entities. Brawl+ is not trying to replace brawl. It's providing an alternative to it.

As for buffs/nerfs... what's your point? It's going to take several months before we have a pretty firm idea of what balancing codes we really want to use, and even that can change if it turns out there's a problem. But that's the whole thing... we can change things if problems arise. It's not like there's the initial development process of a game and then it's shipped to market and the game's balance is then set in stone. If some characters turn out to be over or underwhelming, they can be adjusted slightly to keep the balance of the game. These changes would have to be done very carefully the further down the road they are, but they are possible.

The whole game is getting turned upside down with these changes. Characters like falcon are actually... good, instead of being bottom tier. Characters' playstyles change with the addition of combos. Who cares if it takes a little getting used to in order to use your character effectively again? Brawl is a very shallow game to begin with, so if we're going to expand its depth of course you're going to have to be expected to relearn some stuff. While MK will no longer enjoy his easy kill options, he will have even better comboing options, which can even combo into kill moves (which would now be killing at later percents).

Also, changing code files is not that big of a deal. It's very easy to do and should not even be considered a problem for brawl+'s distribution.

 

[Revven]

See I wanted to say that maybe YOU should play with better people but the fact that you beat me to it already makes me feel bad. I'm getting out of this thread but its not for Brawl+'s benefit, its for mine. =\

Dude, I've been to two vB tournaments both of which I played against VERY competent players (Sliq, nojoes, vidjogamer, lain, and so on). In B+, the people I've played against are good, and there are TONS of videos on YT that prove that BAD isn't overpowered in B+. Watch The Cape's matches, hitstun practically rules everything. BAD is NOT ridiculously overpowered and honestly, I don't know why you think so other than you play too much vB rather than B+.

 

[Skrah]

Somebody's butthurt D:

I doubt you've thought of EVERYTHING.
I can ask whatever the hell I want to, and no, I'm not dictating my beliefs on anyone. Who do you think I am, the inquisition?

Aaand, go out and play.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Dude, I've been to two vB tournaments both of which I played against VERY competent players (Sliq, nojoes, vidjogamer, lain, and so on). In B+, the people I've played against are good, and there are TONS of videos on YT that prove that BAD isn't overpowered in B+. Watch The Cape's matches, hitstun practically rules everything. BAD is NOT ridiculously overpowered and honestly, I don't know why you think so other than you play too much vB rather than B+.

It doesn't have to be overpowered. The fact is its the safest and best option to use in the air. MAD would make the air game more varied because it takes skill to use and makes you focus more on DI. BAD makes you focus on not getting hit by a Snake's utilt on landing.

And I didn't say you didn't play good people, MI has tons of good people. You were the first to bring it up and I was saying it made me feel bad to have the same thoughts, seeing as we can't really argue anything without getting to the point "You're bad and play scrubs."

Edit: And I didn't say BAD cancels hitstun, I said BAD lets you airdodge out of multi-hit moves like Aether for one.

 

[The Cape]

BAD is actually excellent in Brawl+

It allows you to get out of combos at points where you could jump out anyway, giving you an alternative. Jump is faster, BAD is (arguably) safer. Its different in the fact that you are now committed to it, but it usually puts you in a safer position for the short period, and you dont have to waste your jump.

BAD is no overpowered in the least due to the fact that you can AD out of combos when they stop being combos, not at any time like in vBrawl. And dont tell me thats not true, I can make the combo counter read 15 hits, and you can still BAD out in vBrawl.

Going with what Falco400 said as well. I went to a few vBrawl tournies and I could AD out of every combo, and got sheild grabbed out of every approach. Making the game a HUGE camp fest.

 

[cultofrubik]

Somebody's butthurt D:

I doubt you've thought of EVERYTHING.
I can ask whatever the hell I want to, and no, I'm not dictating my beliefs on anyone. Who do you think I am, the inquisition?

Aaand, go out and play.

If it wasn't for your name, I'd have something dirty to say.

 

[kupo15]

Somebody's butthurt D:

I doubt you've thought of EVERYTHING.
I can ask whatever the hell I want to, and no, I'm not dictating my beliefs on anyone. Who do you think I am, the inquisition?

Aaand, go out and play.

And you think you know more than us?

Its funny how when codes are made for stupid fun (aka big swords, taunt activated final smashes) everything is fine and dandy. But when we ask for competitive fun hacks, everyone is like "Go back to melee" So the non competitives can have fun with their game but we can't with ours? Makes a ton of sense...

Anyone who says, "go back to melee" has NO idea what they are talking about. They have NO idea that B+ is NOT melee. Everyone who is against this project is a troll and there has been a lot of trolls in this thread who think they know more....

 

[Blank Mauser]

BAD is actually excellent in Brawl+

It allows you to get out of combos at points where you could jump out anyway, giving you an alternative. Jump is faster, BAD is (arguably) safer. Its different in the fact that you are now committed to it, but it usually puts you in a safer position for the short period, and you dont have to waste your jump.

BAD is no overpowered in the least due to the fact that you can AD out of combos when they stop being combos, not at any time like in vBrawl. And dont tell me thats not true, I can make the combo counter read 15 hits, and you can still BAD out in vBrawl.

Going with what Falco400 said as well. I went to a few vBrawl tournies and I could AD out of every combo, and got sheild grabbed out of every approach. Making the game a HUGE camp fest.

If you jump you still have to land. Oh hey whats the safest way to land? Fast fall airdodge to the ground, and hey it can land you a free safe hit too! I know its not the only option, I'm saying its just the safest and easier way to get rewarded.

 

[kupo15]

If you jump you still have to land. Oh hey whats the safest way to land? Fast fall airdodge to the ground, and hey it can land you a free safe hit too! I know its not the only option, I'm saying its just the safest and easier way to get rewarded.

Its called being a good player by predicting that and being there when he lands. I honestly have a hard time believing that you have every played B+

 

[The Cape]

I had an arguement with a friend today who complained that the hackers need "their precious L cancelling and WDing, so they had to change the game."

Dude we have L cancelling and WDing in the competitive sets?

Ok, who DIDNT tell me this.

 

[Skrah]

And you think you know more than us?

Its funny how when codes are made for stupid fun (aka big swords, taunt activated final smashes) everything is fine and dandy. But when we ask for competitive fun hacks, everyone is like "Go back to melee" So the non competitives can have fun with their game but we can't with ours? Makes a ton of sense...

Anyone who says, "go back to melee" has NO idea what they are talking about. They have NO idea that B+ is NOT melee. Everyone who is against this project is a troll and there has been a lot of trolls in this thread who think they know more....

So.. Just cause I'm stating my opinion I'm a troll? I don't resort to thoughtless insults and retorts like Sonic something. I'm actually want to know whats going on.

I never said I knew more, I just said that there might be some complications and he said "We have thought of everything". Also, idc about hacks for stupid fun, and I just said that you were trying to create a melee 2.0, which ain't far from the truth. You want wavedash, hitstun, etc., so all I said was play the real game. THEN someone said that they wanted the characters, so I said "okay, sounds fine to me", so it should have ended then and there.

"Everyone who is against this project is a troll". Now who is dictating their beliefs. So if someone likes regular Brawl, they are trolls? This is ridiculous.

 

[The Cape]

Thing is we really dont want WDing.

The point of Brawl + is to take the broken aspects of original Brawl (ie: speed of the game, ridiculously overpowered defensive options, and the lack of depth) and trying to oomph it up a bit so that those of us who love fast combo heavy games where you can be super aggressive can still enjoy Brawl.

I like the new parts of Brawl, but I dont like the fact that its slow and no combos, so this kind of a game is great for me and I get my 50 dollars worth out of Brawl.

Someone said it before, Brawl+ is not to replace Brawl, its to provide an alternative. We are not trying to make Melee 2.0 here. I do in fact enjoy Brawl+ more than I do Melee.

 

[kupo15]

So.. Just cause I'm stating my opinion I'm a troll? I don't resort to thoughtless insults and retorts like Sonic something. I'm actually want to know whats going on.

I never said I knew more, I just said that there might be some complications and he said "We have thought of everything". Also, idc about hacks for stupid fun, and I just said that you were trying to create a melee 2.0, which ain't far from the truth. You want wavedash, hitstun, etc., so all I said was play the real game. THEN someone said that they wanted the characters, so I said "okay, sounds fine to me", so it should have ended then and there.

"Everyone who is against this project is a troll". Now who is dictating their beliefs. So if someone likes regular Brawl, they are trolls? This is ridiculous.

No. People who are against this project and come on the threads to say so are trolls. We don't want wavedashing. Idk where you got that idea. If you want to know more, you could approach it in a different way instead of assuming we want melee 2.0 or something

I do in fact enjoy Brawl+ more than I do Melee.

Melee was a great game and phew, I didn't want to be the first person to admit that but I agree.

 

[goodoldganon]

Melee was a great game and phew, I didn't want to be the first person to admit that but I agree.

Haha, same.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Its called being a good player by predicting that and being there when he lands. I honestly have a hard time believing that you have every played B+

I could say the same thing Kupo. Its called being a good player and not mashing the airdodge button.

Also thats not even my point. I never said it was overpowered.

 

[kupo15]

I could say the same thing Kupo. Its called being a good player and not mashing the airdodge button.

Also thats not even my point. I never said it was overpowered.

I coulda sworn you said BAD was OP which is why you want MAD. You sure do post like its OP...

 

[goodoldganon]

You can't mash the airdodge button Blank. It's not tough to predict the down time between dodges and how to capitalize. Try and fake a player out to bait an air dodge, then capitalize. Try and think outside the box...

 

[leafgreen386]

I thought blank said that he was going to stop posting here...

maybe I was just daydreaming or something.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I never said BAD was overpowered, I'm saying theres almost no point in NOT airdodging. Faster fastfalling means you can do it at faster heights and land into perfect shield or spot dodge or even worst you can just utilt them when you get to the ground (Bleh Snakes do this all the time).

Not to mention its even worst with Brawl 2 then in Brawl. At least in Brawl you might feel safe mashing out of combos instead of just airdodging, because if you got hit you wouldn't get combo'd. In Brawl+ theres even more incentive to airdodge all the time to be safe from combos and land a better setup move. (Seeing as how tilt combos rule this game)

You don't need to tell me how to predict airdodges. I enjoy comboing in regular Brawl already. =\

I thought blank said that he was going to stop posting here...

maybe I was just daydreaming or something.

No johns, I did come back. Hopefully I'll be done after this post though.

 

[The Cape]

Blank, have you ever played Brawl+ with the codesets in the first post?

This is a good example of what it looks like played right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLlnyQ0EFXA

Cant AD out of most of THOSE combos, and no tilt combos, because the players can DI well.

 

[Blank Mauser]

But...

I said BAD being overpowered and making it easy to stop combos wasn't my point.

And tilts are still most of the best setups in this game.

 

[The Cape]

But...

I said BAD being overpowered and making it easy to stop combos wasn't my point.

And tilts are still most of the best setups in this game.

Tilts are amazing in Smash 64 and Melee too.

Aerials are the fastest moves you have, tilts have good priority and speed, and smashes have killing power.

Tilts are EXCELLENT setup moves in all four smashes, why is it so bad that they happen to be one of the major setups in this one?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Tilts are amazing in Smash 64 and Melee too.

Aerials are the fastest moves you have, tilts have good priority and speed, and smashes have killing power.

Tilts are EXCELLENT setup moves in all four smashes, why is it so bad that they happen to be one of the major setups in this one?

I didn't say it was bad lol. I like tilting because its something unique to smash, especially wavedash tilts. <3

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

You don't need to tell me how to predict airdodges. I enjoy comboing in regular Brawl already. =\

 

[The Cape]

*funny*

Dude, I mained Dedede. Massive combos!

Oh wait, grabs dont combo >.>

 

[goodoldganon]

^^


lol, that's hilarious.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Lol combos are more fun to pull off in Brawl because of this very reason.

Also Melee wasn't all inescapable combos either, the difference is the amount of skill it takes to get out of them. It doesn't mean it takes any less skill to pull them off. I'd rather not just play Brawl with easier combos.