Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Blank Mauser]

The problem with the L/R idea is that people have varying tastes on which one to use as their airdodge button. Saying "ok, you now have to learn to airdodge using the other shoulder button" would hurt the userbase.

There's also the fact that people who want BAD typically also don't want HAD. It has nothing to do with keeping the ability to perform a BAD. It has to do with the added mechanics of the HAD and their effect on the game.


Bad troll is bad. kthnxbi

Lol I only troll because everything else I say is ignored. I wish I could say what was on my mind like Kupo, but I guess it wouldn't be any more useful either.

And I'm honestly sick of this "Userbase" argument. I already enjoy Brawl competitively, and I think at a high level of play it has some things to offer that Melee doesn't. Just the same I like my Brawl 2 to have something different to offer besides more guaranteed knees. MAD helps the game so much, but I don't care about whats "official" anymore because I lose more and more faith in the community every time I come back.

I thought arguing coherently and as logically as possible would work, but all I can really feel is flaming and people wasting breath with no one getting anywhere.

 

[Archangel]

Blank Mauser may be a troll but I feel he speaks for hundreds of players. When Brawl first came out like 10 million people got it. maybe more. most of them where Melee players that made the jump. Aside from those that play for money A huge majority of them maybe 60% -70% of those that played Melee have gone back to melee. I was one of them. Until Brawl+. It isn't entirely for the air dodge for me. I can play well with both I just think having both would bring more people in the long run. Like Blank Mauser there are still hundreds that will not play without a WD. That's just the way it is. Too much you can do with it in melee but somethings you can't do in Brawl. If you could Wave off of platforms and ledges it would be so much better and so much more useful. If they could make the edges of stages and platforms less sticky and lower the lines used I think it could work really well.

 

[Dark Sonic]

What I want to know is what exactly is wrong with the concept of wavedashing in brawl+. So many people say that they don't want wavedashing in brawl+ in any form and to that I ask why?

Is the simple act of being able to slide backwards so odd to you?

I don't want wavedashing in it's current form because it is still a messy mechanic. But...we can fix it. I personally believe wavedashing would be better if it had more lag on it, and only taveled a little bit farther than the character's initial dash animation.

My reasoning? For all distances smaller than the initial dash animation, you can pivot. For all distances after the full run animation, you can dash cancel. However, we are still missing the inbetween (yes, there is an in between). Pivoting is also limited in it's applications because of it's difficulty in many aspects (for instance, pivot up tilts vs wavedash up tilts). That is why I would chose that specific distance for the wavedash to travel.

As for the amount of lag, it is not only to prevent stacking wavedashes, but also to make the act of wavedashing itself punishable. So that it is not the optimal form of movement (as you'd be better of in either a dashing or walking state), but still a unique movement option to add to all the others, with it's own pros and cons.

Now then, that is my little rant about why wavedashing is not necessarily a bad thing. Directional airdodges however, is a completely different subject. However, this is my ideal wavedash, which likely would be extremely dificult to code and take up a lot of space. Were this able to be done without taking a lot of space, I'd wholeheartedly support it, but anything else I'm pretty much against.

 

[Team Giza]

I don't think the separate shield buttons will work out. I really think smash direction+shield button for a directional airdodge is the only way for it to feel finely tuned into the game. In order for it to actually work well and not mess up the edge game it would also have to be a bit more melee-like in its design as well.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I'm still at a loss for words when it comes to these threads. Is the game really that horrible without L canceling, wavedashing, etc. that you have to hack it to make it like melee? Brawl is a new game, and it is meant to be a NEW game. Now we're trying to change it back into melee, apparently. I don't understand. You can't do some things in brawl that you could in melee, get over it.

 

[Archangel]

yeah the Wavedash itself is still incomplete. The problem with those against it is perhaps a lack of imagination. If it had few lines and worked exactly like Melee's WD with Brawl+'s mechanics would work perfectly to me. However the single air dodge does hurt the game when you have people like Zss that will make you pay if you get caught in the air. with some kind of combined or duel air dodge system with the ability to Waveland off of platforms and stages you and you kept the invincibility frame for a split second longer like in Melee then it would even out the edge game.

 

[Magus420]

So basically he was a noob to Brawl+ when MAD came out and he got his *** kicked and decided he didn't like it... A ***** move to me. EVEN MORE respect lost for him now

However from what I've heard M2K is the kind of guy that would never give up an advantage. I don't know how he feels about Brawl+. Or if he will still main MK but I'm not sure if I want to take advise from who I feel is the most ******ish MK Player alive.

"I don't know him personally."

Exactly, you don't know him so kindly stfu and not make assumptions about him as if you do.

 

[the_judge]

I do like the wavedash, and if you can make it less than 10 lines I could see it making the set in the end maybe... right now it's not important enough IMO to take up space. I'd want it for the edge game additions and wavelanding on platforms is all..

That's just impossible, this is such a huge mechanic being added in, not changed. I personally don't ever see it reaching below 60

The problem with the L/R idea is that people have varying tastes on which one to use as their airdodge button. Saying "ok, you now have to learn to airdodge using the other shoulder button" would hurt the userbase.

There's also the fact that people who want BAD typically also don't want HAD. It has nothing to do with keeping the ability to perform a BAD. It has to do with the added mechanics of the HAD and their effect on the game.


Bad troll is bad. kthnxbi

L/R idea is really a minor inconvenience
We learned they didn't want HAD when they said you'll still have your BAD's.

It seems most HAD supporters (all 2 of them) don't really mind if BAD is part of HAD, not the other way around

BAD is in the final set already, why?
1.) BAD supporters (all 6,000 of them) hate WDing and say it destroys the game
2.) Some BAD supporters lack the ability to negotiate on a HAD that satisfies both parties
3.) WDing would have to be nerfed to the point where it might as well not have been included
4.) BADers are not willing to change their game to work w/ M/HAD and WDing, thus losing a huge following that were told to believe WDing is not coming back.

Personally, this is the most one-sided debate I've ever been involved in.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm still at a loss for words when it comes to these threads. Is the game really that horrible without L canceling, wavedashing, etc. that you have to hack it to make it like melee? Brawl is a new game, and it is meant to be a NEW game. Now we're trying to change it back into melee, apparently. I don't understand. You can't do some things in brawl that you could in melee, get over it.

THANKS FOR COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT THAT MOST OF US HERE ACTUALLY DON'T WANT THE INCLUSION OF DIRECTIONAL AIRDODGING!

Hating on the inclusion of one specific mechanic is fine. Hating on the whole project? Get. The. Frick. Out. We'll play this game the way we want to play it. You can play your awful campfest of a game people call "brawl." And furthermore, brawl+ is not melee 2.0.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Lol @ calling Brawl a campfest. Its so easy to say that.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Lol @ calling Brawl a campfest. Its so easy to say that.

Because it is a campfest.

 

[Archangel]

I'm still at a loss for words when it comes to these threads. Is the game really that horrible without L canceling, wavedashing, etc. that you have to hack it to make it like melee? Brawl is a new game, and it is meant to be a NEW game. Now we're trying to change it back into melee, apparently. I don't understand. You can't do some things in brawl that you could in melee, get over it.

dude. If Brawl didn't suck so bad then it would be getting hacked. Nobody hacked 64 or Melee. Besides great games don't have trips in them. The best players around the world all agree that Brawl is second to Melee with the exception of them having more characters. We are trying to make the best out of a failed game with a failed battle system and a failed adventure mode and most of all a failed online mode that makes a mockery of competitive gaming everywhere. Now...we have MUCH more important things to talk about so if you have nothing to offer on Brawl plus GET THE **** OUT!

 

[Archangel]

"I don't know him personally."

Exactly, you don't know him so kindly stfu and not make assumptions about him as if you do.

what? You don't know me....so please don't bull out pieces of a back and forth conversation and judge me on it. If you have nothing else to talk about kindly STFU...please.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Because it is a campfest.

This is why Brawl+ will fail, because people who don't know anything about Brawl.

 

[Archangel]

This is why Brawl+ will fail, because people who don't know anything about Brawl.

I only think it will fail if people will let down there barriers and try to reach and agreement. We can start vote but having a "Winning side" isn't good because all those invested in the loosing side will withdraw from Brawl+ completely. That isn't what I want.

 

[Wavedash Master]

This is why Brawl+ will fail, because people who don't know anything about Brawl.

Look on the front page of the code agenda thread and then tell me what a failure Brawl+ is.

 

[the_judge]

This is why Brawl+ will fail, because people who don't know anything about Brawl.

And all of the sudden you're a Brawl genius?

Troll mode, ACTIVATE!

EDIT: It's sad to see a lack of understanding.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Lol because I know Brawl isn't a campfest?

 

[the_judge]

Lol because I know Brawl isn't a campfest?

You must main MK just like me

Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying that.

Speaking of which, does MK still **** in B+? (didn't play him)

 

[Blank Mauser]

If people really want to make Brawl not campy, why do people still support BAD?

 

[Archangel]

You must main MK just like me

Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying that.

Speaking of which, does MK still **** in B+? (didn't play him)

I'll put it this way. Boweser can hold his own against MK. If your not an expert MK player camping is dangerous. If you miss-time your Up B you'll miss the edge or possibly float under the stage.

 

[Team Giza]

He needs to be nerfed.

 

[the_judge]

If people really want to make Brawl not campy, why do people still support BAD?

Wait..wah?
It won't be a tool to accommodate camping like it did.

Several codes have fixed that so that ppl actually go for the attack w/o being scared of having it dodged, PSed, shield grabbed or countered.

It was because the lack of hitstun.

EDIT: No don't nerf my MK.
If you wanna nerf any part of him, get rid of his gliding (makes him more interesting)

 

[Team Giza]

I want him to have a very similar playstyle but just have a harder time KOing and dishes out less damage.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Wait..wah?
It won't be a tool to accommodate camping like it did.

Several codes have fixed that so that ppl actually go for the attack w/o being scared of having it dodged, PSed, shield grabbed or countered.

It was because the lack of hitstun.

EDIT: No don't nerf my MK.
If you wanna nerf any part of him, get rid of his gliding (makes him more interesting)

None of those things made Brawl campy, but BAD is always the safest situation in the air and it rewards you too, theres almost no point in not doing it with better fast falling. All those other things took skill and could be punished, while BAD is super easy to abuse.

 

[Magus420]

what? You don't know me....so please don't bull out pieces of a back and forth conversation and judge me on it. If you have nothing else to talk about kindly STFU...please.

I never claimed to know you nor would I need to. You're the one judging people you don't know (M2K) and making up **** about him, which is why I told you to stfu. Nothing more.

 

[Skrah]

dude. If Brawl didn't suck so bad then it would be getting hacked. Nobody hacked 64 or Melee. Besides great games don't have trips in them. The best players around the world all agree that Brawl is second to Melee with the exception of them having more characters. We are trying to make the best out of a failed game with a failed battle system and a failed adventure mode and most of all a failed online mode that makes a mockery of competitive gaming everywhere. Now...we have MUCH more important things to talk about so if you have nothing to offer on Brawl plus GET THE **** OUT!

DUDE, JUST PLAY MELEE!

You are trying to make Brawl a melee 2.0, instead of just playing the real game! I mean, if you HAVE to hack it for you to be happy, instead of having a winsome game as melee. I just don't get your point. Is it the characters, or WTF?

 

[Revven]

None of those things made Brawl campy, but BAD is always the safest situation in the air and it rewards you too, theres almost no point in not doing it with better fast falling. All those other things took skill and could be punished, while BAD is super easy to abuse.

Have you been PLAYING Brawl+ with hitstun at all? Or wut? This whole time you've been talking, it sounds like you DON'T play it with it hitstun, BAD is NOT OP in B+ like it is in vB. If you HAVE been playing it, play it with some GOOD people and I guarantee you that you'll come out of it saying "BAD isn't as bad as I thought it was."

You're arguing for MAD in a HAD thread, you want MAD, you don't want BAD because you're basing all your facts and **** on what happened in vB which has YET TO HAPPEN in B+. You claim you know **** yet you don't know **** when it comes to the discussion at hand, you're already throwing yourself off topic by supporting MAD so wtf are you doing?

Hell, one of your "cons" from earlier on in the topic against BAD was that it cancels hitstun when IT DOES NOT in B+, the code restricts attacking and or ADing to cancel the hitstun THEREFORE it is not as OP anymore.

A ton of things make vBrawl a campfest. I'll list them:

1. Shield grabbing is too good
2. Shielding is too safe
3. Projectile spamming is Godly
4. Spamming moves is safe despite the decay system (see Wolf Fsmash, Dsmash, MK Dsmash and Shuttle Loop).
5. Perfect Shielding helps both sides but, caters more to the approacher however happens mostly on accident than anything else.
6. People. Never. Die.
7. Getting a Star KO is like trying to shove something up your ***.
8. Camping is too good of a strategy and can always overcome someone who is actually skillful.
9. Meta Knight is too good.
10. Planking/ledge stalling is overpowered
11. The edgeguarding game is crap.
12. Air dodging is ridiculously good
13. Hitstun is nonexistent
14. Chaingrabs and infinites rule the game.
15. People ACTUALLY have to debate whether or not infinites should be banned. WTF??

Did I forget anything else? I probably did, but, you get the point. All these things make vBrawl a campfest (you gotta camp against MK for #9). The game is just TOO defensive and is like rock paper scissors (not that there's anything wrong with that, however, it's a problem when rock doesn't beat rock ala shielding), it's NOTHING like Smash 64 or Melee.

Blank, GTFO of the thread, your only purpose in this thread so far has been to annoy everyone with your ******** logic.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I never claimed to know you nor would I need to. You're the one judging people you don't know (M2K) and making up **** about him, which is why I told you to stfu. Nothing more.

You have the coolest avatar on smashboards.

That is all.

 

[the_judge]

DUDE, JUST PLAY MELEE!

You are trying to make Brawl a melee 2.0, instead of just playing the real game! I mean, if you HAVE to hack it for you to be happy, instead of having a winsome game as melee. I just don't get your point. Is it the characters, or WTF?

YOU GO PLAY MELEE!
Obviously we're bringing back some Melee mechanics (except WD) otherwise we would be making a completely different game. We are following an old example (which is a good one) and adding some of the feeling back, but it can never simulate Melee.

 

[zxeon]

What happened to this thread! We haven't made any progress it's just Spam and Kupo having a shootout.

 

[Revven]

Kupo having a shootout.

Yo momma was having a shootout all over the table.

 

[Team Giza]

We are using melee as the old example? I could have sworn we were using ssb64.

 

[the_judge]

What happened to this thread! We haven't made any progress it's just Spam and Kupo having a shootout.

I personally say it has calmed down since before, mainly because everyone is convinced that HAD won't be in the final codeset.

Yes, we are kinda babbling right now.

EDIT: Melee was the prime example, 64 is kinda already covered since Melee did nothing but add better stuff from 64 (plus I haven't played 64 that much, combos are too crazy)

 

[Revven]

We are using melee as the old example? I could have sworn we were using ssb64.

Both actually, I really hate it when people think all these things are just from Melee when they were ALSO in Smash 64...

 

[MuBa]

DUDE, JUST PLAY MELEE!

You are trying to make Brawl a melee 2.0, instead of just playing the real game! I mean, if you HAVE to hack it for you to be happy, instead of having a winsome game as melee. I just don't get your point. Is it the characters, or WTF?

No we aren't =/

And just for the record Brawl+ will be more balanced than Melee.

 

[Skrah]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

 

[the_judge]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

Then why are you here?

MookieRah once said:
"Screw that, I want Fun Speed Activate!"
I rest my case

 

[Skrah]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

And MuBa, you don't know that it will be more balanced, you're just supposing. From what I've read it would be even more broken than it already is.

Edit: Wanted to edit, not double post..

 

[leafgreen386]

You're not getting my point. Why modify Brawl when you got two better, unmodified games before this one? Apart from the fact that everyone that wanted to play "competitively" would have to hack their Brawl, why can't you just accept it and go play melee, heck, even smash 64?

Because we can.

And MuBa, you don't know that it will be more balanced, you're just supposing. From what I've read it would be even more broken than it already is.

Well, we have the tools to balance the game as much or as little as we want, so yes, it is a fair thing to say that brawl+ will be more balanced than melee.