Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[Archangel]

Personally, I think wavedashing would be fine if it actually had some lag on it. In melee, when you wavedash you have your character's initial jump frames +10 frames of which you can do absolutely nothing. This is what prevented you from stacking wavedashes and this is also what ensured that wavedashing was not the optimal choice of movement, but rather something to be simply combined with dash dancing and dash canceling.

I think being able to move backwards while facing foward (what I used wavedashing for the most) would be a very nice addition to brawl. At the moment, I'm limited to pivoting to achieve things like this, which is much more difficult for some moves and thus much harder to implement into my average game.

I can't say I was ever a huge fan of BAD ever sense the game first came out. Not because of the WD but because some characters(including my main) Could do BS attacks without any chance of punishment. I was maybe the biggest fan of MAD on here until my brother came down over new years and showed me how Broken Some of the Bigger characters where with Stacked WD. It is COMPLETE BULL****! This left me with basically nowhere to go so I kind of tuned out of Brawl+ until Dash Dancing was released. It helps everyone but the slow characters. However it is so far the most useful have. Still I have a problem with Diddy(****ty) Kong He's with the current code set he is very difficult to fight. Most of his deaths are a result of him BSing himself at the edge. Once that is fixed he'll probably be the new Metaknight. Just not as broken. I don't have a Problem with Diddy being the top character if he is in the long run. I just think it would be fun if the others had more of a chance. Some of you don't want a WD so badly your willing to make hack that is far worse.

 

[Archangel]

Notice how he specifically mentioned fox and falco when referring to comboing...

And luigi is an exception. He's one of the few characters who truly had WDing dominate his game, but even then he still ran when the situation called for it.

Running was still the primary form of movement for most characters.

I agree. Even people who overused WDing still ran from time to time just because it's the simplest way to move.

 

[Plum]

I really don't see why anyone could have a problem with this...
If you don't like wavedashing, think the code is too long, or whatever, just don't put the code on your SD card...
The code is out for those who want it, right?

I for one don't want to see wavedashing in Brawl + but this is fine. I won't have MAD or HAD on my SD card and the problem is solved.

And I'm fairly certain we can safely say that if B+ goes to a mainstream level and we see tournies hosting this, chances are in favor of no wavedashing. The idea of B+ is to change the general feel of Brawl as little as possible while making it more competitive, am I right? That alone pushes more towards BAD.

But this is an option for those who want it for when they have friends over and play a hacked version of Brawl.

I tried it out out of curiosity though. The fact that you can't repetitively wavedash does make me like this and it isn't as broken as the old MAD at all. There is still options out of the wavedash but it feels much more like it was in Melee: A spacing tool with some offensive options added in there. I still found myself running more often and I was only using it to make a quick get away and then come in with an aerial or something. The "4th jump" is useful like it was in Melee for characters like Solo Ice Climbers or Solo Olimar as a last ditch when you need a small boost in height but at the same time I didn't use it as much as you might think. Solo Olimar gets a vertical boost from Up B anyways, Solo Ice Climbers has Side B and etc. If you really want wavedashing I would suggest it because it does work well while still preserving options in the air and it isn't as broken as the old MAD.

I'm not going to use it but it is nice work from PW.

 

[leafgreen386]

Plum, you see, there are people who are pushing for this to be included in the mainstream brawl+, and that is the whole reason this debate even exists in the first place. It doesn't matter what anyone uses in their own home version of brawl+, but when we make a standard for tournies, it is going to need to be as ideal as possible.

 

[Archangel]

Plum, you see, there are people who are pushing for this to be included in the mainstream brawl+, and that is the whole reason this debate even exists in the first place. It doesn't matter what anyone uses in their own home version of brawl+, but when we make a standard for tournies, it is going to need to be as ideal as possible.

there are some who are so afraid they'll lose if MAD of HAD is included that they want a code to make everyone's DI twice as much as Wario's and increase running speed of people like Bowser's to people like Sonic's speed. That is FAR more broken then any kind of Wavedash. People need to think it threw. The best option is to continue to make a better HAD or An interchangeable Air dodge system in which case L does a BAD and R does HAD that keeps them from stacking Wavedashing.

 

[kupo15]

there are some who are so afraid they'll lose if MAD of HAD is included that they want a code to make everyone's DI twice as much as Wario's and increase running speed of people like Bowser's to people like Sonic's speed. That is FAR more broken then any kind of Wavedash. People need to think it threw. The best option is to continue to make a better HAD or An interchangeable Air dodge system in which case L does a BAD and R does HAD that keeps them from stacking Wavedashing.

What are you talking about? I can say there are some people out there that are so afraid they'll lose if we don't change the air dodge at all. We have thought things through and despite the negative stuff its funny how people push HAD so much as to say its the best option STILL. You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

 

[Archangel]

What are you talking about? I can say there are some people out there that are so afraid they'll lose if we don't change the air dodge at all. We have thought things through and despite the negative stuff its funny how people push HAD so much as to say its the best option STILL. You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

You can do what you want. Your in control of the hacking basically. I have no connects to any of the hackers so you guys can do whatever but I can tell you that alot of us are bulling out of Brawl+ once the final Air dodge is set as BAD and the DI is doubled or tripled and Gannon runs as fast as sonic.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Why would you want to add back in a garbage mechanic like wavedashing? Its bad design, really, and there's no good reason for it to be in the game. It was one of the things they were wise to remove.

 

[kupo15]

You can do what you want. Your in control of the hacking basically. I have no connects to any of the hackers so you guys can do whatever but I can tell you that alot of us are bulling out of Brawl+ once the final Air dodge is set as BAD and the DI is doubled or tripled and Gannon runs as fast as sonic.

First off who is we? Second off, many melee pros already showed their dislike for an sort of AD changing including m2k and cape. Third, DI will not be touched at all. Fourth, Ganon will never go that fast.

Even more proof that you have no idea what your talking about

 

[Archangel]

one more thing. I have yet to loose with Toon Link, Pit, or Diddy Kong. I'm not afraid to lose. I want to loose it the thing LOL. I'm sick of Mirror shielding people off the edge with Pit because there is no Auto Sweet spot. Why are you so angry Kupo. It isn't like I was talking to you. Unless you felt that I was...did something I say strike a nerv?

 

[Archangel]

Why would you want to add back in a garbage mechanic like wavedashing? Its bad design, really, and there's no good reason for it to be in the game. It was one of the things they were wise to remove.

I guess they where also wise to remove L-canceling, dash dancing/canceling and putting in a trip and fall. They are Wise indeed.

 

[kupo15]

one more thing. I have yet to loose with Toon Link, Pit, or Diddy Kong. I'm not afraid to lose. I want to loose it the thing LOL. I'm sick of Mirror shielding people off the edge with Pit because there is no Auto Sweet spot. Why are you so angry Kupo. It isn't like I was talking to you. Unless you felt that I was...did something I say strike a nerv?

Why am I angry? Have you any idea the amount of uninformed people who troll across these threads posting stupid crap and ideas and you should do this and that and I like this and that and your doing this and that wrong that have no idea what they are talking about? Your are borderline this with saying the stuff your saying while being totally uniformed

Your sick of mirror shield people and beating everyone? Play good people because recovering is obviously too hard in brawl and TL and Pit are just broken in B+.

 

[plasmatorture]

I've tried out HAD, and despite wanting something similar I realize now it's unbalanced and broken as hell. There are times when it works well and that's awesome, but most of the time it just serves as a 4th jump which makes recovery piss easy for everyone - nice for Link, Ivysaur, Olimar, and the like, but for everyone with decent to good recoveries, it's broken.

 

[Osi]

Really I think no ASL leading to shield kills added more to the game for me. People need to just time their recovery right... it's not that hard.

 

[Archangel]

Why am I angry? Have you any idea the amount of uninformed people who troll across these threads posting stupid crap and ideas and you should do this and that and I like this and that and your doing this and that wrong that have no idea what they are talking about? Your are borderline this with saying the stuff your saying while being totally uniformed

Your sick of mirror shield people? Play good people because recovering is obviously too hard in brawl.

If there are so many of us "Uninformed Idiots" and you are study running us off then perhaps you and the other 10 Archers that constantly shoot people down will be the only ones that at "Official" Brawl Tourneys? The Recovery is basic is the reason what I mean. Most character have 2 options with their 3rd jump. Sideways or Diagonal. All I have to do is position myself right and I can Shield either one. It's why I stopped using Pit....to much gayness not enough fun. I believe that HAD maybe not the current one but some kind of HAD is your best bet. What I want and what you want isn't what matters. Consider us in the same situation as the Founding fathers of the USA. Southern/Slave States vs Northern/Free states whatever else they where called. We need to find a "3/5ths" Compromise or this project will fail overall. It will remain an underground project....that people play in their basements or over a friends house but never official.

 

[kupo15]

If there are so many of us "Uninformed Idiots" and you are study running us off then perhaps you and the other 10 Archers that constantly shoot people down will be the only ones that at "Official" Brawl Tourneys? The Recovery is basic is the reason what I mean. Most character have 2 options with their 3rd jump. Sideways or Diagonal. All I have to do is position myself right and I can Shield either one. It's why I stopped using Pit....to much gayness not enough fun. I believe that HAD maybe not the current one but some kind of HAD is your best bet. What I want and what you want isn't what matters. Consider us in the same situation as the Founding fathers of the USA. Southern/Slave States vs Northern/Free states whatever else they where called. We need to find a "3/5ths" Compromise or this project will fail overall. It will remain an underground project....that people play in their basements or over a friends house but never official.

And I'm pretty sure the default is already 3/5ths in BADs favor.

I mained pit in VB and if your opponents were tricky enough, the shield is hard to land. Your opponents are just not good enough

 

[Archangel]

First off who is we? Second off, many melee pros already showed their dislike for an sort of AD changing including m2k and cape. Third, DI will not be touched at all. Fourth, Ganon will never go that fast.

Even more proof that you have no idea what your talking about

Perhaps you should read more of these"Idiotic Misinformed" Posts. Maybe their are stupid ideas being presented for both sides. Personally I couldn't give a **** what M2k or any other "Pro" Metaknight player on normal brawl. I have no respect for them. Zero. I respected M2k's game on Melee though. I always wanted to play him. however I wouldn't play him in Brawl if he payed me. MK is bull**** IMO. And Gannon can go that way if he is hacked to go that speed.

 

[Archangel]

And I'm pretty sure the default is already 3/5ths in BADs favor.

I mained pit in VB and if your opponents were tricky enough, the shield is hard to land. Your opponents are just not good enough

I'm not saying it can't be avoided by some but the people I play against only use 1 or 2 people. I have little to no experience against some characters on the game.

 

[kupo15]

Perhaps you should read more of these"Idiotic Misinformed" Posts. Maybe their are stupid ideas being presented for both sides. Personally I couldn't give a **** what M2k or any other "Pro" Metaknight player on normal brawl. I have no respect for them. Zero. I respected M2k's game on Melee though. I always wanted to play him. however I wouldn't play him in Brawl if he payed me. MK is bull**** IMO. And Gannon can go that way if he is hacked to go that speed.

He was an example but The Cape is also for BAD. In fact, a lot of top level players are for BAD and you should care what they think because they no more about competitive gaming then we do. The pros are important also to bring the competition to us. And why the hell would ganon be as fast as mk?

I'm not saying it can't be avoided by some but the people I play against only use 1 or 2 people. I have little to no experience against some characters on the game.

And that is what you base your assumptions on? You speak falsely with your accusations...

 

[Archangel]

Kupo. Are you saying that if the dodge system in the final version isn't a BAD that you won't play the game? Say you where in my position and you had no influence 1 way or the other and you wanted a BAD and those in control and connected to the project directly choose MAD or HAD? Would you not play the game officially?

 

[kupo15]

Kupo. Are you saying that if the dodge system in the final version isn't a BAD that you won't play the game? Say you where in my position and you had no influence 1 way or the other and you wanted a BAD and those in control and connected to the project directly choose MAD or HAD? Would you not play the game officially?

Probably not competitively. . There is too much negative aspects HAD brings to the game that has been studied and talked about. There is nothing wrong with BAD and it feels the best for this game. Yes I am really connected in the project but I don't have the final say

 

[Archangel]

He was an example but The Cape is also for BAD. In fact, a lot of top level players are for BAD and you should care what they think because they no more about competitive gaming then we do. The pros are important also to bring the competition to us. And why the hell would ganon be as fast as mk?



And that is what you base your assumptions on? You speak falsely with your accusations...

I guess you can say Pros have more experience in competitions then we do. However will you ever play against 1 of them? I've always respected Cape simply because he'd use the underdog characters and actually managed to win. I would for once like to see 20 tourney's with 20 different characters winning the tourney's. I will not quite if BAD is the dodge system chosen. I just don't think enough people will back it. There are alot of Pro's that also quite playing brawl all together.

 

[kupo15]

I guess you can say Pros have more experience in competitions then we do. However will you ever play against 1 of them? I've always respected Cape simply because he'd use the underdog characters and actually managed to win. I would for once like to see 20 tourney's with 20 different characters winning the tourney's. I will not quite if BAD is the dodge system chosen. I just don't think enough people will back it. There are alot of Pro's that also quite playing brawl all together.

I have access to m2k (nvm you don't care) ninjalink, DSF ect....I live in NJ and I have a friend who hosts DSF and others at his house when they visit.

 

[Archangel]

Probably not competitively. . There is too much negative aspects HAD brings to the game that has been studied and talked about. There is nothing wrong with BAD and it feels the best for this game. Yes I am really connected in the project but I don't have the final say

You have alot more say then 90% of us though. And a good bit of us thing that a compromise is a good Idea. I'm all for making dodging button related. R for HAD and L for BAD. Would really mix things up in the air. You Bashing everything and everyone that isn't completely for BAD I think has more of an impact on the final decision than you think. If you consider that every 1 post represents 100 people and you ran off 50 people from Brawl+ so far then you've lost 5000 potential Brawl+ player.....consider carefully who you bash is all I'm saying.

 

[kupo15]

You have alot more say then 90% of us though. And a good bit of us thing that a compromise is a good Idea. I'm all for making dodging button related. R for HAD and L for BAD. Would really mix things up in the air. You Bashing everything and everyone that isn't completely for BAD I think has more of an impact on the final decision than you think. If you consider that every 1 post represents 100 people and you ran off 50 people from Brawl+ so far then you've lost 5000 potential Brawl+ player.....consider carefully who you bash is all I'm saying.

I'm not the only one bashing HAD. Not only are there several other anti HADers that are well connected in the project, but two pro HADers who are also connected in the project switched over. And from talking with the pro HADers and there reasons why and seeing what HAD actually does, it doesn't look very good.

 

[Archangel]

I have access to m2k (nvm you don't care) ninjalink, DSF ect....I live in NJ and I have a friend who hosts DSF and others at his house when they visit.

I like Ninja Link's Diddy. I was so glad when he beat M2k. Nothing against M2k. I have a friend who goes to NJ every once in awhile. He plays against them from time to time. He is was a decent Sonic player but he quite playing Brawl. However from what I've heard M2K is the kind of guy that would never give up an advantage. I don't know how he feels about Brawl+. Or if he will still main MK but I'm not sure if I want to take advise from who I feel is the most ******ish MK Player alive. lmao! But that's your friend. I don't know him personally. He might be a cool guy. We may even be friends if we ever met and played eachother...who knows.

 

[Team Giza]

Hey Spam, what is your opinion on my ideas for a HAD system?

 

[kupo15]

I like Ninja Link's Diddy. I was so glad when he beat M2k. Nothing against M2k. I have a friend who goes to NJ every once in awhile. He plays against them from time to time. He is was a decent Sonic player but he quite playing Brawl. However from what I've heard M2K is the kind of guy that would never give up an advantage. I don't know how he feels about Brawl+. Or if he will still main MK but I'm not sure if I want to take advise from who I feel is the most ******ish MK Player alive. lmao! But that's your friend. I don't know him personally. He might be a cool guy. We may even be friends if we ever met and played eachother...who knows.

Im not friends with m2k. He had one bad exp with b+ with MAD and MLC and bad grav ect bad code set so he hates b+. Hopefully he will give my set a chance

 

[Archangel]

I'm not the only one bashing HAD. Not only are there several other anti HADers that are well connected in the project, but two pro HADers who are also connected in the project switched over. And from talking with the pro HADers and there reasons why and seeing what HAD actually does, it doesn't look very good.

I see.....That is really a shame. Monopolizing Brawl+ like that lol. Nah but seriously I think a vote would be better. However making decisions without everyone's consent is something you and your buds can do if you want. You hold all the cards and can make all the rules. However you can enjoy the final game all by yourself because most have decide that they will just play the game at home. If I had the means of getting out my own hacks I would have no need to show up here. However saying "it is a waist of time to better HAD" is rather selfish of a statement to you. Even if it isn't in the final version you can at least put in a word to your connects for those of us that want to use the code at him. It's not like I'm good pal with Phantom wing.

 

[Archangel]

Hey Spam, what is your opinion on my ideas for a HAD system?

I think it could work. But most in charge of the actual project won't give you much of a chance is what it seems.

 

[Team Giza]

If we try to better HAD again we should come to some sort of agreement on how he are going to fix it before hand. Right now HAD doesn't work well with the system and it doesn't even feel finely tuned in the least bit. It looks too much like a sloppy add in.

 

[Archangel]

Im not friends with m2k. He had one bad exp with b+ with MAD and MLC and bad grav ect bad code set so he hates b+. Hopefully he will give my set a chance

Just as I thought. My friend is really good at picking up on peoples personality traits. So basically he was a noob to Brawl+ when MAD came out and he got his *** kicked and decided he didn't like it... A ***** move to me. EVEN MORE respect lost for him now. Don't tell me your the type to let people influence your decision? no disrespect but I'm just wondering now if his response to the game influenced your positions on Brawl+? Are you trying to satisfy him and his group of fan boys/nuthuggers or are you doing you feel is best overall?

 

[Archangel]

If we try to better HAD again we should come to some sort of agreement on how he are going to fix it before hand. Right now HAD doesn't work well with the system and it doesn't even feel finely tuned in the least bit. It looks too much like a sloppy add in.

I agree. However it could be a really good start. I've talked to good Melee players who said they picked up Brawl once played for an hour and haven't played sense. We need them to take an interest in the game as well. Not just M2K.

 

[leafgreen386]

Just as I thought. My friend is really good at picking up on peoples personality traits. So basically he was a noob to Brawl+ when MAD came out and he got his *** kicked and decided he didn't like it... A ***** move to me. EVEN MORE respect lost for him now. Don't tell me your the type to let people influence your decision? no disrespect but I'm just wondering now if his response to the game influenced your positions on Brawl+? Are you trying to satisfy him and his group of fan boys/nuthuggers or are you doing you feel is best overall?

No. He did quite well playing it. He just thought the game was broken and... bad. He hates regular brawl but he plays it for the money. You know this, right? The same with most brawl pros... it's not that he did poorly when he played. He just thought that the game sucked with the codeset that was in effect at the time.

 

[the_judge]

And I'm pretty sure the default is already 3/5ths in BADs favor.

I mained pit in VB and if your opponents were tricky enough, the shield is hard to land. Your opponents are just not good enough

Of course it's in BAD favor because you all don't want wavedashing in.

It's not even about the AD itself anymore, it's all about the wavedashing.

Spam makes perfect sense, BAD for L, MAD for R (or vice versa)

If you're against WD's brokeness so much, put a timer on it so it can't be stacked and add landing lag, but preserve that you still go into freefall afterwards thus solving the 4th jump problem.

There, WD is still in w/ some nerfs, and BAD is still there.
Or are you all against it that much?

 

[Archangel]

Of course it's in BAD favor because you all don't want wavedashing in.

It's not even about the AD itself anymore, it's all about the wavedashing.

Spam makes perfect sense, BAD for L, MAD for R (or vice versa)

If you're against WD's brokeness so much, put a timer on it so it can't be stacked and add landing lag, but preserve that you still go into freefall afterwards thus solving the 4th jump problem.

There, WD is still in w/ some nerfs, and BAD is still there.
Or are you all against it that much?

As it stand you and I are on the same page.

 

[Blank Mauser]

BAD sucks takes no skill and is fail+ AIDS kthx.

 

[Osi]

Of course it's in BAD favor because you all don't want wavedashing in.


It's not even about the AD itself anymore, it's all about the wavedashing.

Spam makes perfect sense, BAD for L, MAD for R (or vice versa)

If you're against WD's brokeness so much, put a timer on it so it can't be stacked and add landing lag, but preserve that you still go into freefall afterwards thus solving the 4th jump problem.

There, WD is still in w/ some nerfs, and BAD is still there.

I do like the wavedash, and if you can make it less than 10 lines I could see it making the set in the end maybe... right now it's not important enough IMO to take up space. I'd want it for the edge game additions and wavelanding on platforms is all..

 

[leafgreen386]

The problem with the L/R idea is that people have varying tastes on which one to use as their airdodge button. Saying "ok, you now have to learn to airdodge using the other shoulder button" would hurt the userbase.

There's also the fact that people who want BAD typically also don't want HAD. It has nothing to do with keeping the ability to perform a BAD. It has to do with the added mechanics of the HAD and their effect on the game.

BAD sucks takes no skill and is fail+ AIDS kthx.

Bad troll is bad. kthnxbi

 

[Archangel]

No. He did quite well playing it. He just thought the game was broken and... bad. He hates regular brawl but he plays it for the money. You know this, right? The same with most brawl pros... it's not that he did poorly when he played. He just thought that the game sucked with the codeset that was in effect at the time.

I was basically the same way but didn't play the game for money. I thought The game was really cheap. So I played the cheapest characters I could find. I picked Pit as my main with MK as my secondary and DDD and Snake as my 3rd string. I did really well losing rarely online and in person except to others who used top characters. I never felt like I was winning because I was the best player or even because I was skilled but because the characters I used thrived given brawls original designs. The original Codesets biggest addition was no tripping. Aside from that the original MAD and No tripping was basically all they had. And I eventually found that the stack ability is broken.