Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Ace55]

Went to a small scale tourney this weekend and got a few sets recorded. Critique/advice would be very welcome.

vs Gongo (Jiggs)

vs Ser (Fox/Falco)

vs Lawrencelot (Sheik)

Messed up nearly all CG's on Sheik, which I was doing near perfect in pools.

 

[kupo15]

only got to see one fox match but I noticed that you FF your Fairs way to soon and as a result missed out on Fairs that would have hit.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntkKqujJpcM

set vs everlasting yayuhzz. i think i played pretty good...that guy just lives forever and understands how to fight ganon...sorta. i think he's beatable though.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah yay knows the basics of the matchup pretty good, which is more than I can say for a lot of spacies out there. I'll watch later.

 

[VGmasta]

Yeah, I just rewatched Yayuhz Fox vs RockCrock Ganon from CEO. Fox is kinda gay for Ganon, especially on the lengthier stages.

Lagless projectile, good edgeguarding, good ability to move, and good offense overall. Kinda hard for Ganon to control.

 

[Divinokage]

Yeah, I just rewatched Yayuhz Fox vs RockCrock Ganon from CEO. Fox is kinda gay for Ganon, especially on the lengthier stages.

Lagless projectile, good edgeguarding, good ability to move, and good offense overall. Kinda hard for Ganon to control.

Ya kinda but its definitely not impossible.

 

[G. Vice]

I feel like Ganon has to work harder, as well as just overall outplay the Fox to win. Sad times if the fox has lots of Ganon practice, and is good vs Ganon.

 

[Divinokage]

I feel like Ganon has to work harder, as well as just overall outplay the Fox to win. Sad times if the fox has lots of Ganon practice, and is good vs Ganon.

Idk if you know the matchup as well, it can go either way.. you just need to make the right choices and you win.

 

[Palpi]

You can say that with anything Kage, you have awful logic all of the time.

 

[spider_sense]

lol Fox can be difficult, but once you understand how to prevent his rush down tactics, then things become a little bit more even. It's a winnable match, just difficult.

 

[IYM!]

OK, i am here

i need a few council in order to defeat peach

her vegetables are a pain, can someone give me a council to evade these projectiles?

her Dsmash give so much damage, which is the best way to evade it?

Nair is so fast, wich Ganondorf arials can hit her before?


thanks in advance

 

[Divinokage]

You can say that with anything Kage, you have awful logic all of the time.

Of course since when have I said things that don't apply to your daily life as well? The real truth is universal. It can be found in anything too, surprisingly enough. If there is anything that would be in the way of my dreams then there's no more logic involved and I will pursue it no matter what. So why is there no logic with what I've said? You do the right moves = you win. Doing the right moves is the hard part obviously as the decisions you make will affect how the outcome is.

Using Ganon to win tournament is already illogical =)

 

[Palpi]

Awful logic does not mean it is wrong. You can reach a false conclusion using logical reasoning and vice versa.

What I mean is, Pichu can win by doing the right moves at the right time... so lol..

 

[spider_sense]

OK, i am here

i nede a few council in order to defeat peach

her vegetables are a pain, can someone give me a council to evade these projectiles?

her Dsmash give so much damage, which is the best way to evade it?

Nair is so fast, wich Ganondorf arials can hit her before?


thanks in advance

Your best approach is to just properly space with fair and don't let her get inside, cause once she does she can wreak havoc left and right on Ganon. If you can predict her dsmash, it can be punished heavily, try wavedash oos and punish with a jab/ftilt or grab. Whichever the situation calls for you know? You can shield grab her nair as well, but that in itself is risky, because she follow up immediately with her jabs, so be careful with that. Oh and try not to **** with the dsmash so much because most Peach players will spam it, because of it's high priority/decent knock back and huge potential damage. So proper spacing is key to being successful in this match up.

Awful logic does not mean it is wrong. You can reach a false conclusion using logical reasoning and vice versa.

What I mean is, Pichu can win by doing the right moves at the right time... so lol..

Questioning the warrior's logic? Tsk tsk, just look at the Spartans (300) vs An entire Persian army.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

rushdown isn't really the worry with yay. it's the fact that he knows when to actually run in, and he understands when ganon has lag and when he doesn't. makes him very hard to bait. if you can't bait, then the only way to punish is to straight up predict. so most of my hits came from just predicting when he'd jump or run off a platform, or roll away from not teching, and stuff like that. a fox that's willing to wait for ganon to do anything thats not like...a retreating uair...becomes really hard to fight. you have to straight up outplay them, get in their brain, and read them before they shffl/shine you across the stage into shine gimps.

 

[G. Vice]

Awful logic does not mean it is wrong. You can reach a false conclusion using logical reasoning and vice versa.

What I mean is, Pichu can win by doing the right moves at the right time... so lol..

I agree. By the very nature of the game and the tier list someone is going to have to work harder by default.

Just cause you can make the right decisions and win doesn't necessarily mean doing so was easy or that you weren't forced to outplay your opponent. I feel you Palpi, and I agree.

But it's true that it's not an impossible matchup, thus we Ganon mains must suck it up and bear it.

 

[Palpi]

Ofcourse. I was never denying that fox was a winnable match up. But it is easier for fox than for ganon, thus often forcing the Ganon player to outplay the fox. Making the right moves at the right time, would obviously be included under "outplaying." It was just an empty statement with some warrior logic flicked in there. lol <3

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Does anyone know about this glitch? I'm not sure if it's just this version of smash or all of them, but somebody please test and tell me. When I use Ganon's upB from the ground and aim it to go over the opponent's head, they will start sliding along the ground as if Ganon is pushing them by walking into them.
It only happens just as I'm moving overhead.

I was player 1 doing it to player 2 with a variety of characters.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Questioning the warrior's logic? Tsk tsk, just look at the Spartans (300) vs An entire Persian army.

The Spartans lost.

And they only survived as long as they did because of the terrain. To put it in a starcraft analogy, picture 10 zerglings trying to run into a choke, but there are 2 hold position zealots guarding the entrance to a wall off

 

[spider_sense]

The Spartans lost.

And they only survived as long as they did because of the terrain. To put it in a starcraft analogy, picture 10 zerglings trying to run into a choke, but there are 2 hold position zealots guarding the entrance to a wall off

lol Ok, look at Goku and Vegeta vs an army of Coolers. (But if they survived because of the terrain, wouldn't that put the Persians in the same advantage? Also I think it's also been documented that the Spartans were trained experts in arm to arm combat since the day they were born, while the Persians were regular dudes who were called in to war, let alone Leonidos was a brilliant tactician)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

soooo does anyone have anything to say about my vids vs yay?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkgYZQ4kTk4 -> i also lost to sneak, my training partner, another fox, this tourney. i beat a jiggs and a marth, but the jiggs wasn't recorded, and the marth set isn't worth watching lol.

 

[spider_sense]

soooo does anyone have anything to say about my vids vs yay?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkgYZQ4kTk4 -> i also lost to sneak, my training partner, another fox, this tourney. i beat a jiggs and a marth, but the jiggs wasn't recorded, and the marth set isn't worth watching lol.

I'll comment on them when I get back from class.

 

[Jane]

question: in which matchups is crouch cancelling better/more abuseable? which matchups should you generally stick to other tactics instead?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ccing good for -> fox, falcon, falco?
not that good for -> peach, sheik

can't think of a use against: jiggs, mario bros, samus, other ganons, etc.

generally there are ways around it, even for fox and falcon, by doing their moves later, or just plain grabbing you instead.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

CCing as abusable in every match-up, but not every situation.

 

[-ACE-]

If you are at low% you can often cc dtilt sheik if she fairs you on the way down.

Chris you are getting better at mindgames. You also understand some really important things about the fox matchup that most ganons don't (what is safe and what isn't). I think you could be a little better about reading/hitting his illusion when he tries to attack you with it. Also, if you are late on a platform techchase you need to realize this and use some mindgames. By this I mean if you don't read a techroll on a platform in time to get the hit, don't just bair/uair his shield anyway; dj and then aerial to cover spot dodge/if he jumps oos, or waveland to grab instead. I would elaborate but I'm on my droid atm. Good set man.

 

[G. Vice]

CCing as abusable in every match-up, but not every situation.

This.

Yay's first combo on you was sweet lol.

First thing I noticed was you have some patterns that seem static. For example you would waveland and automatically throw out a BAir alot of times, even if he was no where near it, or even in the process of rolling in front of you where a FAir would have. Maybe just take your time and throw moves with more thought behind them, instead of fast falling it so much to get to the ground faster. I noticed a couple times you fast fell on a FAir and cut it off before the move even came out. Chillax, and let your moves come out. Speed is only good when used correctly.

Edgeguarding is almost always done with your back to the ledge. And though you may sometimes use the jab to catch a quit forward b from fox/falco, if they sit there and up b, you have many better options than trying to jab them out of it. You can either turn around BAir, UAir, or you can just tilt.

Just some observations I made from the first match. The rest of them, I saw some pretty good stuff, but just keep spacing at the forefront of your mind as Ganon, and remember approaching fox is risky unless you have tricks. Jab alot.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

not gonna lie, yay's first combo was ****. that utilt? priceless.

getting hit by illusions is SO annoying. sneak is good at switching between head height (needing a bair) chest height (needing a jab) and edge height (needing a low angled ftilt/tipman). yay was good at going head height when i can't bair fast enough, and going edge height even below the ftilt.

i'll keep in mind platform stuff. i'm usually fast enough to get those uairs, but i may have been going a little more on reaction than prediction, to make sure i didn't miss, and ended up just being late. i'll keep those mixups in mind though. usually the only character i try to get on the platform with and regrab is marth. it's just so fun against him, and he's a really fun weight to get that dthrow bair with. i'll definitely keep that in mind to expand my game.

i tried to keep the pressure on both sneak and yay by approaching with uairs. it worked some, and failed a lot. but approaching and getting close with fair is really bad, as they can just run under it and usmash or something, but even the uair has it's weaknesses when going forward. i remember when i watched rockcrock face yay, any time rockcrock did anything that...wasn't uair, yay just ran in and did stuff.

i definitely appreciate the feedback. i feel like even though i lost, i understand how this matchup works, to a degree. now to just raise my own level just a little higher, and maybe i'll be able to win a few sets in my first round pool.

 

[-ACE-]

The illusion at head height is something that ganon's metagame hasn't caught up to quite yet. Pp and mango do it a lot and I pretty much never see it punished properly. They go just high enough so that jab's hitbox won't connect. Yay did it to you first game. We gotta start using that up-angled ftilt more imo.

 

[Divinokage]

Well if they do go for the middle stage, wouldnt back jump fair get the illusion if its not shortened?

 

[Samba]

are there any applicable uses for Ganon's neutral air? I never see any Ganon's use it

 

[-ACE-]

Kage I mean like a really fast dj into illusion. Pp will often phantasm only a few frames after he dj's so you don't have time to react with retreating aerials. He'll often take the risk of using the phantasm as an attack on ganon and is rarely punished because honestly no one is ready for it to come at that particular height (top of ganon's head). Most spacies don't devote much time to their recovery game vs ganon but if they did, I believe you'd see this a lot more often. Falcos that phantasm right into you at perfect jab height make me lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, i was thinking up angled ftilt would be good. i usually want to retreating bair for that height, but as you saw, it's just not fast enough. a retreating fair wouldn't work unless you're either predicting that they will phantasm (in which case you would ftilt so as to be able to cover more options if they don't phantasm), or if you were already in the middle of the stage (a situation that if they phantasm'd to the middle of the stage, the joke is most certainly on them).

as for nair, its good for the lulz, and at times vs marth. but even then, you can probably uair, and maybe uair again. if the nair woulda got both hits, then the same DI on an uair would lead to another uair or fair...i think.

also, i think for the frames it is active, our nair beats falcons nair. it's just not active very much, so its a hard thing to use. plus uair *****.

 

[G. Vice]

are there any applicable uses for Ganon's neutral air? I never see any Ganon's use it

Low percent's vs floating you can Dthrow and get both NAIr hits on for about 29 damage or so alot of the time. Nair's are sometimes good to slip in there right before you land, especially if you're out of control and shake out at the last moment. It'll hit, and if they aren't too high of a percent you can Lcancel ~> pursue with an Uair or force them to reposition and punish them.

Also, when pertaining to a illusion at the head, you could up-angled ftilt yes, or you could duck, and then punish them when they land. Just another option.

 

[spider_sense]

Low percent's vs floating you can Dthrow and get both NAIr hits on for about 29 damage or so alot of the time. Nair's are sometimes good to slip in there right before you land, especially if you're out of control and shake out at the last moment. It'll hit, and if they aren't too high of a percent you can Lcancel ~> pursue with an Uair or force them to reposition and punish them.

Also, when pertaining to a illusion at the head, you could up-angled ftilt yes, or you could duck, and then punish them when they land. Just another option.

Short hop uairs also work just as well.

 

[IYM!]

also, nair come slower than uair, so is less safe

 

[DippnDots]

i loved it when every falco saw shiz edge cancel the illusion on a platform, i'd just time a fair to come out when they'd hit the platform edge. Now they mix it up again =[

 

[lawlt]

Is there a matchup information archive that's more comprehensive than Tipman's?

I mean that gives me a little information, but I'd like more than one word "advantages" for matchups

 

[Divinokage]

Nair in general should only be used when you have a juggle going on to mix up the DI and do combos Cpt.Falcon style.

 

[Samba]

Thanks for the info, gentlemen