How to Show No Sympathy: The Community Ike Guide

[Ussi]

Don't know if you didn't read what i posted about shield SDI, but i said it wouldn't work on reverse aether lmao so it wasn't something to worry about.

Light, i want you to post on good ways to use quickdraw and eruption xD

 

[YagamiLight]

I'll definitely post a few paragraphs on what I think is the proper way to use both Eruption and Quick Draw because from my understanding of it I am by far the biggest advocate and user of both moves. Merely saying Quick Draw is enough to get weird stares around here.

Niddo did use Quick Draw a fair bit against me in the last bi-weekly I entered, though, so props to him on that. He had this nifty Quick Draw tomfoolery circus going around on Norfair but that ended fairly quickly as he lost one stock just sailing through a platform (??!?) and on the other stock I just ran up to the Quick Draw after he dropped down from a platform, shielded it and Back Threw him into the lava wave which provided some good combo moments. I distinctly remember thinking "enough of your worthless bull****" right before I Bthrew him. Pretty funny match, though I'm not sure if Niddo remembers it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, not through. It moved away because the safety capsule appeared on the bottom one, making me go from landing on the ledge to the right, to falling in between. ;_;

QD is too fun on Norfair, as long as you don't mess up. >_> <_<

 

[Heartstring]

lol, i've began to use eruption a fair bit in this day an age

times when eruption is ikes best option:
castle seige statues, the surprise fully charged one will only work once on your opponent and whoever else is watching so make it important (losers semi's, final kill at 30% lol)

although thinking about it, having we got anything for edgeguarding? i mean ike wont be doing much of that, but i always like to jump off against people just coming back from near the blast zone and fair them in the face, also d-tilting a lucario out of his up-b has he reaches the ledge is so, so sweet

 

[Nysyarc]

Well according to Strategy Wiki Ike's entire metagame revolves around Eruption, Aether and QuickDraw; they know their stuff over there, so I think we've been doing it wrong all along.

For people who use ledge hop Nair to return to the stage, do you input the Nair with the c-stick? That's how I do it, and I figure trying to do it any other way might be too risky considering if you don't move onto the stage the Nair will cause you to SD... and moving onto the stage and pressing A will Fair. I like ledge hop Nair, and ledge hop Fair, Uair and Bair are also viable in certain situations, particularly Fair. I use an AD more often than an attack when I do it though.

 

[Ussi]

Ledgehop fair and nair are at best mix ups to counter people predicting the ledgehop AD or ledgeroll/jump etc

 

[Heartstring]

as far as ledge recovery goes, i tend to ledgehop AD and gets punished for it because i cant really get on far enough to be safe, yet for some reason only i get punished for it...

also one things ive just found out in training mode (1/4 speed ftw) is that d-tilt's range increases AFTER the sword comes away from the feet, a.k.a, the frame after the original hitbox, only slightly, but it still does, so trying to time dtilt spikes so that you hit with the latter hitbox it probably better than the earlier one.

gonna go test this with other tilts, cause i swear it happens on f-tilt too

 

[Ussi]

GP.... Look at Sharkie's Moveset analysis and look at the hitbox bubblea for each frame. Ftilt has its range hitbox frame 18

 

[Heartstring]

GP.... Look at Sharkie's Moveset analysis and look at the hitbox bubblea for each frame. Ftilt has its range hitbox frame 18

yeah i just figured out, also did anyone else know tilt stick doesnt work on 1/4 speed? attrocious i tell you

oh btw, down pointed f-tilt is longer ranged and normal f-tilt and normal f-tilt is longer ranged than up-pointed f-tilt, jus' sayin.
i think anyway, dont hold me to it, i have amatuer-ish testing methods

 

[Watkins]

For people who use ledge hop Nair to return to the stage, do you input the Nair with the c-stick? That's how I do it, and I figure trying to do it any other way might be too risky considering if you don't move onto the stage the Nair will cause you to SD... and moving onto the stage and pressing A will Fair. I like ledge hop Nair, and ledge hop Fair, Uair and Bair are also viable in certain situations, particularly Fair. I use an AD more often than an attack when I do it though.

I use the A button though come to think of it I'd probably get more range out of it with the c-stick. It's not really all that dangerous... or maybe it's just because I'm used to it. I never SD while doing it unless it's on fkn Lylat because that stage loves tilting away from me when I'm about to do it :@

 

[Heartstring]

I use the A button though come to think of it I'd probably get more range out of it with the c-stick. It's not really all that dangerous... or maybe it's just because I'm used to it. I never SD while doing it unless it's on fkn Lylat because that stage loves tilting away from me when I'm about to do it :@

unlucky son, i generally wouldnt do it because i cant get from the y button to the c-stick in time before i land, so theres no point for me XD

 

[-RedX-]

About ledgehop->aerials.
Releasing the ledge a few frames after you grabbed it to retain invincibility frames, then aerial would be safer right? But do those frames last long enough for Ike to throw out a hitbox safely?
I generally don't like to ledgehop->aerial(non-Bair) because I find myself getting hit right before I throw the aerial. -.-

 

[Heartstring]

About ledgehop->aerials.
Releasing the ledge a few frames after you grabbed it to retain invincibility frames, then aerial would be safer right? But do those frames last long enough for Ike to throw out a hitbox safely?
I generally don't like to ledgehop->aerial(non-Bair) because I find myself getting hit right before I throw the aerial. -.-

the link boards looked at this, but they can stack invincibiity frames on a fair because of z-air regrab, i dont think we can

 

[Watkins]

If you're getting hit like that you're doing it while the opponent is too close, just throw aether at them <_<

 

[-RedX-]

There's always that lol.
But ledghop->aerial is just something I'm not comfortable with these days. I'd rather aether plank till it's safe enough for me to ledge jump/roll/etc.

 

[Heartstring]

There's always that lol.
But ledghop->aerial is just something I'm not comfortable with these days. I'd rather aether plank till it's safe enough for me to ledge jump/roll/etc.

yeah, but if someone can knock you out of aether, youre in serious trouble

 

[san.]

If you space it well you'll almost never get hit out of it more than a few times at most.

 

[Rykoshet]

Aether is really really simple to hit ike out of because the catch 22 is that at any range he can't be hit out of it by really common decent range moves (it doesnt even really have to be stupidly long range moves either. Fox's up smash can hit ike out of aether practically 100% of the time, falco can definitely do it), you can just hog him. Granted no one ever thinks about this **** but people who regularly fight or play as Ike so I wouldnt worry about it. Aether is really really REALLY simple to harass if you understand that its horizontal range immediately disappears the second he has to go up for his sword.

 

[Foodies]

About ledgehop->aerials.
Releasing the ledge a few frames after you grabbed it to retain invincibility frames, then aerial would be safer right? But do those frames last long enough for Ike to throw out a hitbox safely?
I generally don't like to ledgehop->aerial(non-Bair) because I find myself getting hit right before I throw the aerial. -.-

From DMG's planking thread:
[collapse=Info]

- Ledge invincibility: 1-46 (This is correct for most of the cast. There are some exceptions to this like Pikachu and Tethers)
- Minimum Time on Ledge: 24 frames (The 25th frame you can do stuff like ledge attack, ledge jump, ledge roll, etc. You cannot drop down from the edge on this frame) (This is the Same for everyone, only a few exceptions to this)
- You cannot buffer a ledge drop, hence frame 25 being unusable for ledge drop.
- Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21 (This is for everyone)
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.

[/collapse]

What I'm getting:
- 30 frames to regrab the ledge - 21 frames of invincibility after dropping from the ledge = 9 frames of vulnerability if just dropping down and regrabbing the ledge if done perfectly.
- 21 frames of invincibility after you drop off, so the hitbox of all Ike's aerials would be out while you are still invincible. Problem is, you get only get the full 21 frames if you just drop off and use the aerial. All your aerials (besides Uair) won't hit a person on the stage. Obviously, if you do a Nair you'll die. You will also lose your invincibility before the lag of your attack ends (assuming you are still in the air), so Ike can't plank with aerials (also pretty obvious).
- I'm not sure if ledgehop bair would still be invincible since I don't know how many frames it takes to double jump and get into the right positioning before using the attack. If it's less than 14 (21-7) it would be.
- I guess the 21 ledge invincibility frames could help somewhat with edgeguarding, but not so much with returning to the stage safely.

I could be reading this completely wrong.

 

[Watkins]

There's always that lol.
But ledghop->aerial is just something I'm not comfortable with these days. I'd rather aether plank till it's safe enough for me to ledge jump/roll/etc.

Well get comfortable with it and stop gimping yourself 8D

Aether is really really simple to hit ike out of because the catch 22 is that at any range he can't be hit out of it by really common decent range moves (it doesnt even really have to be stupidly long range moves either. Fox's up smash can hit ike out of aether practically 100% of the time, falco can definitely do it), you can just hog him. Granted no one ever thinks about this **** but people who regularly fight or play as Ike so I wouldnt worry about it. Aether is really really REALLY simple to harass if you understand that its horizontal range immediately disappears the second he has to go up for his sword.

I would think if you aimed your aether properly you can avoid such shenanigans, but if you say Fox does such things then I believe it. In most situations, like you said, it's safe enough though.

 

[Rykoshet]

Aim has nothing to do with the weaknesses of aether, it's just a matter of the way the move is built. When ike is going up for his sword, the sword must move back to directly above him and he spins there for an ugly amount of time. In this time the aim is taken out of ike's hands and it's a matter of vertical spacing at this point. Once that is established, there are 2 options. If they go high/close enough to potentially land on the stage if you plan on hogging him, ike is capable of being hit/spiked/whatever (and I mean any move with even decent range can hit ike out of aether, it's an automatic tipper from marth if you space it right, actually), otherwise you can just hog him if he went low/far away enough to not be hit on the rise. It's also why a grenade or c4 at the ledge potentially forces ike to space it in a way that can get him hogged.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

For people who use ledge hop Nair to return to the stage, do you input the Nair with the c-stick? That's how I do it, and I figure trying to do it any other way might be too risky considering if you don't move onto the stage the Nair will cause you to SD... and moving onto the stage and pressing A will Fair. I like ledge hop Nair, and ledge hop Fair, Uair and Bair are also viable in certain situations, particularly Fair. I use an AD more often than an attack when I do it though.

I haven't really tried for a ledghop Nair, but while practicing just now, I have managed to do it with smash stick (Tilt Control stick down -> jump (X) -> Nair -> hold forward) Still haven't been able to do it with tilting the stick away from ledge.

Ledgehop Uair shield poke anyone?

 

[san.]

I believe I'm one of the best at messing up other Ike's aether, and I believe well spaced aether, fox can't upsmash it lol. One needs quick ground/aerial movement and a decent, fast, disjointed aerial (or just massive range) to hit aether at least decently spaced.

I used to think anything can hit aether because no one spaced it well at all. It spaced well can actually be used solidly by everyone except MK and maybe marth, and those who can attack aether OoS.

MK has the speed and the disjoint to fair, dair, SL OoS, etc. aether, and marth has the speed and disjoint to fair or DS OoS aether

Both of these hits leave ike in a pretty bad position.

 

[theeboredone]

Hm...so I think we should establish what moves can theoretically hit us out of aether no matter what? Mainly projectiles, and as San says, disjointed attacks. Snake's f-tilt? DK's super punch with super armor?

 

[Ussi]

Eh, i think we should know if we're gonna be hit out of aether or not, no need to know a whole list of moves that we aren't even gonna remember. I'm just gonna put a ANTICIPATE being hit out of aether and DI correctly

Also now that my classes are over, expect some work to get done here



Lastly, I love how the collapse tags make it so easy to get to the part of the guide i want, i'm thinking maybe we should just keep that way in the final draft so people can just get to the section they want. What do you guys think?

 

[theeboredone]

That's why I was originally for collapsed tags lol.

 

[san.]

Collapse tags are good.

Pretty much the majority of attacks in the game can hit aether if they can get close enough/time it right (Even jiggs can time an fair on it), but getting close enough is the hard part, especially on stages like BF.

If you mess up hitting aether though, that's a possible 12-20% or w/e based on how you try to SDI out, not to mention if you're unlucky, you'll get hit onto platforms on a few stages like BF and Lylat.

 

[Rykoshet]

I believe I'm one of the best at messing up other Ike's aether, and I believe well spaced aether, fox can't upsmash it lol. One needs quick ground/aerial movement and a decent, fast, disjointed aerial (or just massive range) to hit aether at least decently spaced

Fox's entire lower body is invincible when he up smashes and down smashes, both of these moves are capable of flat out kicking ike out of the spinning section of aether. It also hits low enough that he can hit you even if you're slightly below ledge level. It's disjointed in the sense that throwing it provides no risk to fix and if you go any lower / farther out he's just gonna hog you. Fox is the third fastest character on the ground. Falco is also capable of doing this for the same reasons but he is slower on the ground significantly so the window of opportunity is smaller if you dont count the fact that his legs are longer. Marth walkup Dtilt, fair, walkup fsmash, walkup dsmash, and even dair are capable of smacking ike out of aether, not counting dslash and counter obviously. DK's fsmash hits low and far out enough to do it, as does his punch. Kirby's fsmash can do it if timed right. I've dtilted enough people out of aether as ike to understand that its weakness is to just stay back until he has to go up for his sword, you dont even need to be super fast to do that either.

 

[san.]

If you are able to get a dtilt so easily on aether, we clearly have different mental images on the visual weakspots of aether.

 

[Mr. Doom]

If timed correctly, Ike can be grabbed out of aether while he is jumping up to catch the sword. There are two instances where the collision bubble disappears for about six (6) frames: 1) while Ike is jumping up to catch the sword, and 2) immediately after Ike stops spinning and before he begins to drop down.

 

[theeboredone]

Is this why Marth can Dolphin Slash us out of aether?

 

[Heartstring]

****, aether just gets worse and worse the more its discussed, i think we need to look at an accurate image on each hit/hurtbox for the entire move to be able to see what move can knock us out of aether, kirks hitbox gif is decent enough for now

to be honest, i've never really thought that there would be gap in the hitbox once, let alone twice, just goes to show how poor that move really is sadly enough

 

[Ussi]

i knew the gap was bad like 4 frames, but 6?? Man thats so...

 

[YagamiLight]

Back in my day, having at worst 1/10th of a second between a bunch of spinning sword strikes wasn't actually considered a bad thing.

 

[Teh Brettster]

It is when you can get hit by Uair and upB from both Marth and MK during that delay.

 

[Mr. Doom]

@Bored: That and because Marth's Up-B has invincibility on frame one (1) all the way to frame five (5), and frame five (5) is when the actual collision bubble of Marth's Up-B come out. (I've actually had an MK jump and shuttle loop me one time.)

@GP: Aether has its quirks. Even though it is believe to be a horrible move, I can still make good use of it. If you don't believe that there are two gaps in the attack, then check the gif.

@Ussi: Yep. Six frames. Check it out.

@Light: I c wut u did thar.

 

[san.]

Most attacks can hit aether, but actually getting to aether is the hard part. The quickest way to get to aether is above and slightly in front of it. The issue with hitting aether is aether digging deep into stages like BF and SV, then moving away once it actually comes up, making it much harder to hit without great ground/aerial speed and a very fast disjointed aerial.

Ike's aerials have enough range to just jump at and fair or bair, but on stages like SV, it becomes very difficult because of the amount of distance needed to be transgressed in those ~23 frames from when Ike jumps up for the sword to actually the spiking down. 23 frames seems like a lot, but you have to run up to aether, jump, and input your own aerial while not getting hit yourself. It's even harder on BF.

Dolphin slashing aether isn't nearly as much as a threat as merely fairing it (with marth). Spikes are dumb because we can just SDI and tech, and it's MUCH harder to feasibly pull off. MK is fast enough to use just about any of his aerials except nair. On BF though, everything becomes much harder for these characters to hit us.


gist: Having a move that can possibly hit aether =/= being quick and fast/good enough to hit it spaced well in a match.

 

[Rykoshet]

Back in my day, having at worst 1/10th of a second between a bunch of spinning sword strikes wasn't actually considered a bad thing.

Here's the problem with multiple low damage sword strikes.

First off, hit stun is determined by the damage and knockback of a move, at least to a small degree. As a result, aether's lack of both with gaps in attacks means that of a person has a brain and theyre caught inside aether, they can flat out hit you with a move if it's fast enough. I've been taken off the top by orion's meta knight as he was just mashing his C stick up to get out of aether, I just got flat out hit by MK's up air and it wasn't remotely intentional. Add to the fact that it's much easier to smash DI these moves and even marth can smash DI Up and spike you for it, something a CPU has done to me 3 times but few marths would ever be in that situation if they're good enough tod o that in the first place.

When fox is being hit by wolf's up B, fox can flat out shine wolf and kill him because of the gaps in attacks. Aether barely barely BARELY escapes this and I'm actually not even sure it actually does, fox may be able to do it in that 6 frame gap.

And yeah san, I think we view aether as vulnerable at different points. I think the position on startup gives away a lot about the move personally.

 

[Heartstring]

@Bored: That and because Marth's Up-B has invincibility on frame one (1) all the way to frame five (5), and frame five (5) is when the actual collision bubble of Marth's Up-B come out. (I've actually had an MK jump and shuttle loop me one time.)

@GP: Aether has its quirks. Even though it is believe to be a horrible move, I can still make good use of it. If you don't believe that there are two gaps in the attack, then check the gif.

@Ussi: Yep. Six frames. Check it out.

@Light: I c wut u did thar.

i had already checked this gif, thats was i was 'dayum son'-ing

as a general rule though, unless youre on bad ike stages (fd, frigate) you can be pretty safe on the edge

 

[san.]

At least on the first part of Frigate, you can hide underneath the lip, lol.