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How to Show No Sympathy: The Community Ike Guide

jamlosingthegame

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About baiting/reading, I started noticing my friend's patterns. I was even able to predict a roll behind me that I charged an Fsmash behind me and he rolled into it. The most epic thing happened with his Mario though. Facing Mario I charged an Fsmash away and Mario caped me and I turned and hit him. I bet it's happened before a lot but the lag on Wifi made it slow down.
Dunno if that's really a contribution because it's just an experience I had.
 

Ussi

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reading on wifi is ******** because you can read well this guy can do this to me offline but on wifi the input will be hard to do precisely so he can't punish this now

I'm gonna avoid posting about wifi so much cause i don't want people picking up wifi habits. They are a pain to have.
 

Nysyarc

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The trouble with reading on WiFi is that you can see stuff coming from miles away, but punishing becomes infinitely harder to time. I was playing this Wolf the other day on AiB, complete scrub, all he did was roll, Fsmash and Dsmash (which from what I understand is most of Wolf's metagame anyways). I baited almost every single one of his rolls, but only managed to successfully punish them a few times. I'd always turn and be ready to Jab but he'd end up PSing the Jab or rolling back the other way and Dsmashing me before I could buffer anything again.

Yah, leave WiFi happenings out of the baiting/punishing section.


:034:
 

Nysyarc

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Just to clarify, it's this Sunday at 3 pm EST. Same time we do the bi-weeklies. The more people who show up the better.

:034:
 

Ussi

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We're planning on discussing certain subsections, discussing whether new subsections are needed or if 2 need to be combined, and going over anything else that might be needed for a section..

Also, new section added
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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I want to join the discussion, but I probably won't get back to my aunt's until like 3-3:30 maybe -_-
 

Ussi

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Don't worry san, Nys and I should still be there by then, it'll be an hour into it if you were speaking central time.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Oh crap.. I forgot about central time =(
 

Ussi

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Changes to happen in 10 minutes to the guide:

Jab cancels moved to offense
Dealing with Ledge hangers moved to offense
Dealing with ledge hangers is in two parts with planking and those returning to the stage
DIing right name change to Momentum canceling and adding how to do it in more detail
Added nair to anti-aerial




Thinking of changing: "How to approach Disjoints" to "How to deal with disjoints"
 

XLR8TION

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wow great thread guys, i need to be more active :/
 

Meneil

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All matches below are offline. I also tried to keep them more recent. Also, all players on this are/will be PR'd or on HM for their respective state. .-.

Teaming with Snake:

Bracket matches (full set) vs Wafles (MK) and Kappy (Kirby):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzn0ZqQHdxA r1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo_m2ACPyZk r2

(Akashi and I had better teamwork on R1 for the above)

Friendlies:
vs Kain (Wolf) and Kappy (Kirby):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe-beQ0Qu2w&feature=related

Singles:
Bracket Matches:
vs JJRockets (Diddy Kong)
(set 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4BIdiwoR80&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq33vkuvsX0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzhSqIfNrI0&feature=related

vs JJRockets (Ice Climbers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEVKuODJjs4&feature=related
(set 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihEtNOsxQWc&feature=related

JJ and I actually played two sets, 1 in normal brackets and the other in Loser's Finals, so there's quite a few matches... I tried to pick out the better ones though.

I think this was a friendly? I don't remember <.<
vs Grimace (Snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7rhVkhSbPA

Hope that helps. I'm too tired to keep sorting through videos.
 

metroid1117

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All matches below are offline. I also tried to keep them more recent. Also, all players on this are/will be PR'd or on HM for their respective state. .-.

Teaming with Snake:

Bracket matches (full set) vs Wafles (MK) and Kappy (Kirby):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzn0ZqQHdxA r1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo_m2ACPyZk r2

(Akashi and I had better teamwork on R1 for the above)

Friendlies:
vs Kain (Wolf) and Kappy (Kirby):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe-beQ0Qu2w&feature=related

Singles:
Bracket Matches:
vs JJRockets (Diddy Kong)
(set 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4BIdiwoR80&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq33vkuvsX0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzhSqIfNrI0&feature=related

vs JJRockets (Ice Climbers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEVKuODJjs4&feature=related
(set 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihEtNOsxQWc&feature=related

JJ and I actually played two sets, 1 in normal brackets and the other in Loser's Finals, so there's quite a few matches... I tried to pick out the better ones though.

I think this was a friendly? I don't remember <.<
vs Grimace (Snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7rhVkhSbPA

Hope that helps. I'm too tired to keep sorting through videos.
What tournament was this? Were you back in IL for a time? :confused:
 

Ussi

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Following up the Grab
san3711 said:
At higher percents, if a character doesn't tech your bthrow, it allows for an easy tech chase (with aerials or shield approach jab punish)

if an opponent lands near the edge, you can be a bit more liberal with your aerials (because if they shield, they'll be pushed offstage usually) Throws at non-dash attack % really just allow for further pessure on the opponent, but nothing really guaranteed. It just forces a neutral position, with you having the opportunity to close some distance.

Fthrow offstage to dash attack usually forces an air dodge or they get hit. Throwing offstage in general is pretty nice against people with just one jump so you can pressure wih long-range aerials/tilts from a safe distance from the stage.
YagamiLight said:
Back Throw
Option 1: Dash Attack
Option 2: Jump + Forward Aerial
*Dash Attack is generally a true combo on everyone from around 30 to 100 per cent.

ForwardThrow
Option 1: Dash Grab
Option 2: Sliding usmash
*Dash Grab preys on their instinctive shield after a fast move such as Fthrow and Up Smash will punish them if they get into the habit of spot dodging.

DownThrow
Option 1: Jump + Neutral Aerial
Option 2: Dash + Aether
*The justification behind the Aether is that they may try to go as high as possible after the Dthrow (to avoid Nair) and will not go horizontally enough to avoid Aether.

UpThrow
Option 1: Dash Pivot Grab
Option 2: Up Aerial
* This is pretty much inferior to Dthrow so use the one thing it has over it: the ability to put the opponent close to you for a possible quick regrab.

on sloped terrain and he can also Bthrow to Ftilt the larger characters
The wonders of searching...

now for the next few sections...
 

Foodies

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More bthrow options:
regrab (for those who shield expecting a DA usually)
upsmash (for those who spotdodge...need to time this)

They are not guaranteed of course, but some mixups are good :D ...and just realized this is nearly exactly the same thing Light wrote for fthrow. Lol. Probably can still mention it though.
 

Foodies

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We are giving them sympathy, that's why. The current supply of sympathy outweighs the demand, leading to a surplus. Slackers are thriving off of this extra sympathy, so we need to cut the supply of sympathy and create a shortage of sympathy instead. Then there won't be any more slackers. Maybe.

The "How to deal with disjoints" seems character specific to me, maybe we should just do matchup summaries later to cover those? I guess I'll get started on "Getting back onstage from the ledge"
 

Ussi

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there are a variety of disjoints, i'm thinking of just moving it to mental aspect as you need a different mentally when dealing with range
 

Nysyarc

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I've been working out of town these last few days, and otherwise pretty busy with stuff all last week. When I was taking up new sub-sections I was able to keep working on them steadily but I keep forgetting to work on this now that I'm just proof-reading and editing stuff.

Whatever we do we can't start forcing people to work on it and we can't set deadlines. This will get done in due time.


:034:
 

Foodies

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Yay, progress!

[collapse=Getting back onstage from the ledge]
Getting back onstage from the ledge is a very important part of the game. You can take a lot of damage and even get killed if you are too predictable. The important thing is to know your options and mix them up.

Regular get up - Move your analog stick in the direction you are facing on the ledge. This option is pretty safe if you do it before 100% and buffer a shield, but you can pushed back onto the ledge pretty easily (you can also get grabbed of course). It works pretty well if your opponent expects an attack and shields though, since the situation is pretty much reset back to neutral. If you time your get up so there are invincibility frames when the opponent tries to attack you, it’s even better. After 100%, it becomes slow enough that people can hit you out of it more easily, so don’t use it that much then.

Getup attack - Pressing either A or B (attack/special) on the ledge. Not a very good option for both before and after 100%, since it can be easily shielded and punished. It will sometimes work if your opponent is not expecting it though.

Roll – Pressing shield on the ledge. This isn’t that good of an option, since if it is predicted it will be punished very hard. The good thing about it is that if you are closer to the center of the stage after using it. It can also be used to easily bypass someone charging a move attempting to hit you.

Ledgejump – Pressing jump when on the ledge. This is a good option because you can mix up your landing with your double jump, airdodge, or an attack (usually nair or fair). Just note that this option doesn’t give you any invincibility frames, so if someone predicts it they can hit you. On SV, ledgejump while holding back on the analog to land on the moving platform is a pretty safe ledge return. On BF, ledgejump to QD to a platform is also a possible option.

Ledgehop – Dropping from the ledge by pressing away or down on the analog stick and using your double jump and anlog to get on the stage. You should usually do something along with ledgehopping. Note that if you get hit out of double jumping you will be in a pretty bad position.

Airdodge – This is probably the best and safest option out of a ledgehop (and your ledge options in general). If you expect an attack, use it. Even if your opponent doesn’t attack, there isn’t that much time for your opponent to attack you before you hit the ground and shield/spotdodge/jab depending on how you think they will react (buffering helps here).

Fair – This can surprise your opponent since it has decent range. But if it’s shielded expect to be punished.

Nair – Not used that much because it is harder to execute than Fair, combined with the risk of accidentally Nair’ing to your death. But it has less landing lag compared to Fair, and if you do connect with it it’s easier to follow up. If it’s shielded still expect to be punished. [I actually see no one using this...do we need to even mention it?]

Counter – If your opponent is doing a really obvious attack, and you KNOW they will hit you, go ahead and counter. If you screw up the timing though, it will most likely hurt. A lot. So either don’t screw up, or just use a safer option like ledge drop Aether.​

Stalling – You don’t necessarily have to return to the stage right away. Dropping down from the ledge and double jumping to regrab it (to refresh your invincibility frames) can throw your opponents off. Just note you can be hit if you aren’t careful. [Insert some frame data on ledge invincibility stuff here]

Aether – You can stall on the ledge for a short time with this move. A drop off Aether can make your opponent stay farther away from the ledge, making your return a bit easier. Some stages (PS1) allow you to throw the sword very far into the stage, while still allowing you to come up from under it if you hold your analog away from the stage. Learn to grab the ledge instead of landing on the stage after the move. If they fail to shield it you can hit them with the whole move and return to the stage that way. Just remember you can grab the ledge with Aether a maximum of 5 times without landing on the stage before you will fall to your doom.

Ledgedrop Uair – Like Aether, dropping of the ledge and Uairing can also make your opponent keep their distance. But unlike Aether it can actually kill your opponent if they are at higher percentages. However, it also isn’t as safe as ledgedrop Aether, since if shielded it’s easier for your opponent to edgehog you [I think...shield pushback might say otherwise], which will force you to recover on the stage and get most likely get punished.​

(Not exactly related to your returning to the ledge, but ledgehop fair/ledgedrop Uair can also be used to punish someone if you forced them to land on the stage when they are recovering.)

[/collapse]

As usual, if there's something I missed/got wrong feel free to add/fix.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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I use ledge hop QD maybe once every 30-40 matches.

Ledgehop nair seems pretty useful, but I haven't used it enough to see if/how easily it gets punished, since you're moving forward towards the opponent and nairing, which has decent range, but not as much range as we need for a very reliable way to get on stage.

I could be very wrong though, rofl, especially since if it actually hits someone we can possibly uptilt bair or jab, or possibly make them whiff, while Ike's other moves are basically for "get away from me" purposes.
 

Ussi

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Its only use is showboating, no point in putting it in.

You end up being either pressured again or the guy wasn't even there. Better off Ledgehop AD so you can use that second saved to get away from the ledge
 

Watkins

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Ledgehop QD is one of the fastest if not the fastest way to get back on the stage into a good position, but obviously not a choice you want to use if your opponent is standing right there waiting for you. Still, it is definitely worth mentioning.


As for ledgehop nair, since it's one my of most commonly used ledge maneuvers I'll go into more detail on it.

Basically, it's an easy way to near instantly attack someone vulnerable on the ledge near you who thinks they have enough time to prepare for an edgeguard. If properly spaced, depending on the character they will rarely punish it especially if it's followed up quickly by jabs or a grab.

This is mainly because a ledgehop nair is kind of an odd looking maneuver and it's easy for the opponent to miss the punish window. Mixing in this with ledgehop AD or fair keeps the opponent guessing on how and when they should punish you, if they even can.

It attacks people on the stage quicker than ledgehop AD + followups or fair, and often that speed is the difference between just getting back on the stage and damaging your opponent and getting back on the stage only to be shieldgrabbed and thrown back off again.



Obviously an opponent shielding directly on the ledge owns both these options, but that's honestly right where you'd love them to be because you can just reverse aether drag them off the stage. Ledge drop aether until your opponent is where you want them, or until they simply just back off. Either way, you win.

Here's a video on it Rykoshet posted ages ago in case anyone hasn't seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vrytPv9Oq8

It has a lot more range than you'd think, you just have to do it properly.

In my opinion, Ike is probably tied with MK for the best character at getting back on the stage from the ledge (except against some characters like fkn Marth or Lucario) because of all his mixups.
 

YagamiLight

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I can't believe how rude I've been. You guys have made such a great topic and I haven't even had the decency to post in here once.

Well, better late than never, I guess. Props for the hard work and the good thread.
 

AN(M)ist

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the aether dragging thing watkins mentioned about, isn't it also same as shield SDI thing abused by certain characters near the ledge? Only difference is that they don't have to shield SDI as Ike is dragging them himself; and when they are about to go offstage, they simply throw in a bair or dair or something.
 

YagamiLight

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Thing is, the dragging portion happens when Ike is doing his midair Aether spins. This pretty much ensures that unless they have a frame 1 aerial they're going to be actually hit by the reverse Aether. It's a BIT different for inshield SDI versus the normal Aether direction.
 
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