How to Show No Sympathy: The Community Ike Guide

[Nysyarc]

I agree with Niddo on Counter. It should definitely be at least two Ike heads. Also, doesn't counter do like x1.2 the damage of the move that hits?

Well it's a little more complicated... it's like 10 base damage plus 1.18 times the damage (G.P knows the exact ratio) or something. It's the only move that's kind of iffy in Kirk's thread and I've never experimented with it myself.

Still waiting on more opinions before changing it though, I still think it shouldn't be used in competitive matches.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Raise it to two Ikes.

DSmash deserves to be the only move rated at one, and counter is about as good as eruption.

 

[Teh Brettster]

******** double posts.

 

[AN(M)ist]

I vote for counter to be 2 ike heads as well, it may be conditional but it is better than dsmash atleast. btw there's no mention of

Spoiler

...conditional yet cool looking...

counter draw here; it gives Ike a nice distance boost with active counter frames and deserves a mention somewhere in this guide.

Also nothing about light's reverse counter draw, it did seem a bit ....viable... for mindgames (just a humble thought, ignore if you will).

 

[Nysyarc]

Alright, alright, I made Counter and changed the description a bit, but that doesn't mean I'm going to start using it in competitive matches. I still want to hear some more input on that if anyone else has any.

Also, while we're changing 1/5 rated moves, what about Uthrow? It's clearly worse than Dthrow in a lot of ways but does it deserve to be 2/5 if only for the fact that it's better than Dsmash? I mean the purpose of tossing opponents onto a platform at middling percents and adding 6% damage is still a purpose... Dsmash has no purpose.

I don't know though, there's never a situation really where Uthrow is your best option. At around the same percents that it would be good for lobbing opponents above you for sharking, Bthrow will string into DA on most characters.

I personally vouch for leaving it at 1/5 along with Dsmash, although Dsmash would be 0/5 if it were a possible rating.

 

[Ussi]

Few things to say who get home on my laptop but for now on my phone:

I like Meniel's change to defensive aerials. I think it can be worded better however but that's just semantics

Also, Light has a post on bthrow %'s so I'll go dig it up on Ashura when I get home


Also, I'm for adding a specific move section when the guide is done. We'll just talk about problem moves and how to deal with and add it to the guide so we don't have to repeat ourselves overtime and have a reference. I would say no but we don't have a MU thread to put that kind of information in

Also once the guide gets filled out, I will start holding XAT gatherings to talk about editting the guide at some time. It'll be much easier for all of us.

 

[Nysyarc]

Starting my write-up on Smash Stick vs Tilt Stick now. I may also do the Offense: Platform Game section if no one else has by the time I finish with this.

Edit: Can you guys see all the hitbox visual stills? Like do they load on your computers? Some of the ones for Uair, Aether, a few of the throws and various others are just showing up blank on mine... I saved all the screenshots so I can upload them again but that's weird...

I don't think it's the 502s causing it either cause opening the images in a new window still comes up blank.

 

[pinoymk]

i only checked aether and uair but i can see them fine nys.

 

[Nysyarc]

So there's no gaps between them of just black? They should appear right next to each other seamlessly.

It's very weird that some of them don't show up on my computer... they all did at first.

 

[Nysyarc]

Omg... this stupid 502 thing is making it impossible to do anything on these boards. It wasn't so bad a few days ago but it's getting steadily worse.

 

[Heartstring]

oh so, writing and looking into counter was a waste then XD
also for the record it does X1.812% and knockback varies oddly.
but i wrote something up on it very early on if you want to quote that.

also these 502's have jsut about ended now, hope thats its fo the next decade -__-

 

[Ussi]

Sharkie mods can combine posts together, combine your double posts together, hell you can double post to bump then combine lolol

 

[Nysyarc]

Yah that's how I switch OPs too but it's a long process for something as simple as fixing a double post. Not really worth it.

/lazy

Edit: Okay, I merged these ones because that was just a ridiculous coincidence LOL. G.P I really don't think the 502s are over quite yet.

 

[Mr. Doom]

I recently double posted by accident because of the 502 Gateway Error.

 

[Nysyarc]

I recently double posted by accident because of the 502 Gateway Error.

Somebody quintuple posted because of it. He posted once, intentionally went to double-post because he had something to add (should have just edited). His second post got doubled with the 502 but it didn't initially show up on his computer, so he typed it out and submitted it again, worded differently, and then when he noticed he had triple-posted that additional thing, he posted again to comment on that.

Five consecutive posts. I love these 502s.

 

[Heartstring]

Yah that's how I switch OPs too but it's a long process for something as simple as fixing a double post. Not really worth it.

/lazy

Edit: Okay, I merged these ones because that was just a ridiculous coincidence LOL. G.P I really don't think the 502s are over quite yet.

yea sadly, they are still happening, but i reckon its jsut because these college computers suck so so bad, then again i suppose thats what happens when 2000 different people have saved stuff shared over only about 30 computers.
are we gonna steal metriod's kill percentage things for this guide? i know he's put it up on aib, but not sure about here

 

[AN(M)ist]

@Nyke, could you also include the angle at which each of ike's moves throw the opponents (like tip of fsmash throws at a vertical angle than the middle part). I noticed there are some moves of ike (in kirk's data) that have different trajectories at different parts of hitboxes.

 

[Heartstring]

i think stuff liek that is more based around the data guide, its not really needed to know how to paly ike, thats my opinion anyway

 

[Ussi]

What GP said, people reading a guide will have no idea what it means and if they are looking for that they probably arent looking for the description of the attack.
Yes we want to have as little of going through multiple threads however we don't want to overclutter the guide too.

Our main audience are people trying to pick up Ike, we are gonna talk like they know nothing.

 

[Nysyarc]

Our main audience are people trying to pick up Ike, we are gonna talk like they know nothing.

This.

You'll notice in my moveset analysis I used the full name for every move and then provided the more commonly used shortened name. Every time I mentioned a move that I hadn't gotten to yet in an earlier move's description, I called it by it's full name so as not to confuse any new players.

Besides, I give Kirk credit at the top of the guide and link his thread for anyone who wants more in-depth data about the moves.

 

[Nysyarc]

Control Schemes
Smash Stick vs Tilt Stick​

This section of the guide will compare the pros and cons of both the Smash Stick and Tilt Stick as they apply to Ike. No bias is given towards either side, so you can read both arguments along with some helpful tips for each and make your own decision on which C-stick control you think would work best for you!

The Smash Stick

This is the default setting for your controller scheme, the Smash Stick. In the ‘Controls’ menu of your game under GameCube Controller, the C-stick should be set to ‘Smash’. There are a few definite advantages to having the Smash Stick as your all-purpose c-stick scheme, and I will now outline them in detail. I will also include some tips and work-around for various issues with the Smash Stick.

Quick Pros & Cons

Pros

• Possible to SDI with the c-stick
• Vertical momentum canceling is somewhat easier
• No Tilt Stick jump glitch

Cons

• Using c-stick to Dair fast-falls
• Cannot use Nair with the c-stick
• Harder to perform Utilt with tap-jump on

Smash Directional Influence (SDI)

Using the Smash Stick allows you to perform SDI with your C-stick and your control stick simultaneously. It is always possible to mash the control stick in any direction at the moment you are hit by an attack, and Ike will shift in that direction. With the Smash Stick, it is possible to do this with the C-stick as well, but it is not possible with the Tilt Stick setting.

To get the most benefit from this, try and predict when you are about to be hit by an attack, or prepare yourself for an attack that will inevitably hit you. At the instant the attack connects with you, alternately tap the control stick and C-stick in the direction you want to shift, and you will do so much more easily than with only using the control stick. Just be sure to use the control stick for standard Directional Influence by holding it in the direction you want to bend your trajectory once you are sent flying.

Using the Smash Stick for SDI helps a lot in escaping from combos and attack strings at low percents, since you can very quickly shift away from your opponent and mess up their timing/spacing. You have to be quick with your fingers and have an ability to understand when certain attack will hit and when you are in a vulnerable position in order to make the most of this advantage.

Vertical Momentum Canceling

Momentum canceling when you are sent vertically (towards the top blast zone) is arguably a bit easier with the Smash Stick than the Tilt Stick. Inputting a Dair with the Smash Stick by tapping it down will automatically cause you to fast-fall, quickly negating your vertical momentum. Since you only need to use the C-stick to initiate the fast-fall, you are free to use the control stick for standard DI and to control Ike in the air while momentum canceling.

For example, say you are hit by Fox’s Uair at middling percent, some distance above the stage. Using your Smash Stick and control stick, you can first SDI down at an angle to increase the distance between you and the top blast zone. Then, you will mash the control stick to one side, to bend your trajectory while simultaneously hitting down on the C-stick to input the Dair and fast-fall. All of these things together make survival quite a bit easier for users of the Smash Stick.

Walk-Off Down Aerials

A key thing to remember here is that holding the control stick down while inputting a Dair with the C-stick cancels out the fast-fall. So, if you want to use a Dair with the C-stick and not fast-fall, you need to be holding down on the control stick. This method is risky but workable and not too hard once you have the hang of it.

Stand near the right edge of the stage (it works on either side but this is just for reference) and tilt your control stick to the right and slightly down. As you walk over the edge, rotate your control stick down and use the C-stick to input the Dair. If performed correctly with the proper timing, you should Dair immediately after walking off and not fast-fall, allowing you to recover using your double jump and Aether.

If you do not get it right the first time or even the first several times, keep practicing, because it is possible. Knowing that holding down on the control stick cancels the fast-fall of a C-stick Dair is good for other things as well. You shouldn’t hold down on the control stick while using a C-stick Dair to momentum cancel for example, because you won’t get the fast-fall.

The Tilt Stick

In order to use the Tilt Stick, go to the ‘Controls’ menu under GameCube Controller and set your C-stick control to ‘Attack’. The Tilt stick is very different to the Smash Stick, and offers a completely new set of benefits and downsides. Which control scheme you choose to use is up to you, but this comparison will give you a good idea of what you can get out of each.

Quick Pros & Cons

Pros

• Possible to Nair using the c-stick
• Using the c-stick to Dair does not fast-fall
• Easy to perform Utilt with tap-jump on

Cons

• Cannot SDI with the c-stick
• Vertical momentum canceling is somewhat harder
• The Tilt Stick jump glitch

C-Stick Neutral Aerial

This is definitely the most convincing argument in favor of the Tilt Stick. By tapping the C-stick in a diagonal direction (it can be any diagonal), you will perform a Jab when standing on the ground, or an Nair if you are airborne at the time. What is the significance of this? Total control of aerial movement while using an Nair.

Normally, to input an Nair requires that you reset your control stick to a neutral position and tap A, thus stopping your horizontal movement. If you input the Nair with the C-stick however, you can continue to move and accelerate using the control stick. It takes some practice to consistently perform Nairs without accidentally inputting a different aerial, but once you have it down, spacing becomes much easier. You can also have more control over walk-off Nairs from platforms.

Some useful methods of employing this that you can try out are short-hopping with the control stick and immediately inputting the Nair with the C-stick, similar to how you would perform an auto-canceled Bair. You can jump with your standard jump button, wait until the apex of your short-hop and then input an Nair while retreating and initiating a fast-fall. This will end Nair’s hitbox in front of you and allow for Jabs to immediately follow-up. You can also fast-fall and simultaneously input an Nair while coming down from being knocked high above the stage.

Down Aerial Without Fast-Fall

The Tilt Stick does not cause you to automatically fast-fall when you input a Dair. This means that vertical momentum canceling requires you to tap down on the control stick to fast-fall, but it also means you can be more creative with your Dairs off-stage. The only significance for momentum cancel is that because you have to tap down on the control stick to fast-fall, your horizontal control is not as good. It is actually better to input a Bair with the C-stick and tap down on the control stick simultaneously when using the Tilt Stick for vertical momentum canceling.

Walk-off Dairs are obviously made much easier with the Tilt Stick, and there is a much lower risk of messing up. The only possible way to mess up is if you accidentally inputted an Nair by having the C-stick too close to a diagonal, but with a very small amount of practice this can be avoided entirely. Simply walk off the edge and tap down on the c-stick to perform the Dair. You do not even need to input the Dair immediately when you walk off, you can wait for about half a second and still survive; take some time to get used to how close you can cut it.

On top of this, you can also use Dair while falling and not cause yourself to fast-fall. This means you can jump off-stage, control your movement with the control stick, and then Dair using the C-stick when your opponent is under you, regardless of whether you are falling at the time. This makes it possible to use a Dair very far out from the stage and save your double-jump so you can still recover.

The Jump Glitch

Using the Tilt Stick leaves you open to a certain, strange type of mistake if you're not used to it, but it will pose almost no threat once you’re accustomed to it. While using the Tilt Stick regularly, you may notice you sometimes jump when you didn’t input a jump. This jump is a result of bad buffering with your C-stick.

Buffering an attack using the Tilt Stick at a time when the game cannot read the input (right after another attack, after a dash or run animation, when you are stopping running, or in the shield-dropping animation) will cause you to short-hop. The way to eliminate this risk is simple: Be careful about when you use the C-stick, and any time you plan on Jabbing or using a tilt from a run animation, shield first to cancel the dash and use the A button.

The Tilt Stick definitely has it’s uses, but because of this glitch you do have to be aware of when you choose to tap it. Fool around in practice mode to get used to how long it takes Ike to end different animations like dashing, shielding, various attacks, etc. The more comfortable you are knowing how soon you can input a C-stick attack, the better. It is possible to mis-time a Tilt Stick input by a little bit and not jump, so don’t worry about trying to time everything perfectly, buffering carefully is still a good idea.

Double post of epic justice. Props to Brett for the last bit of the Tilt Stick section, I just took what you put and changed the wording here and there/extrapolated a bit. If anyone thinks of something to add or change let me know.

 

[theeboredone]

I honestly don't consider fast fall D-air to be a con of Smash Stick. All you have to do is motion your analog stick diagonal before you leave the stage and you can c-stick down without fast falling no problem. It might take a little more practice, but it works just as fine.

 

[Nysyarc]

Eh, it's still easier/safer and allows more control with tilt stick (for example you can walk off and then pull back to Dair someone under the lip of the stage, or continue outwards to Dair someone further away). Plus there's using Dair while falling after the apex of a jump. It's probably possible with smash stick by holding the control stick down as you jump upwards and then continuing to hold down when you c-stick the Dair, but it allows no horizontal control at all.

Overall, tilt stick is just better for Dair use IMO.

 

[Watkins]

Maybe, but it's not always about just the walkoff dairs. Risky offstage dairs in the heat of the moment or when you want them to come out as fast as possible can easily be accidentally fast falled, or come out too slow because you were trying to be too precise. Obviously you can generally get it with practice, but all it takes is one slip of a fairly precise motion to turn an epic stock comeback into a game throwing blunder.

Compared to the risk of tilt stick dairs turning into run off nairs if you tilt the stick too far diagonally (I think I've only done this once lol), it's considerably more dangerous.

For that reason, I'd agree it's a con. It's not about what you can or can't do, it's about comparing the risks and difficulty.

Edit: And yeah Nys said other probably more relevant points that I forgot lol

Edit2: By the way, you can non fast fall dair anytime by moving the control stick VERY SLIGHTLY downwards then pressing a, but emphasis on the very slightly where the alternative is fast falled death and frustration.

 

[theeboredone]

Well I have yet to make a blunder with fast fall d-airing with my smash stick, but you guys have good points.

Honestly though, I don't see many opportunities to use walk off d-air in tournies against good players anyways =/. Yea you can get a free kill, but smash stick or not, if you miss, chances are you're getting gimped.

 

[Nysyarc]

In any case, I'm going to start my write-up on the Platform Game section now. It's gonna be a long one, and I have several ideas for sub-sections I can include.

After I finish with this I may take a break from doing new stuff and edit some of the sections we already have done.

 

[Heartstring]

excellent, i think a lot of the stuff we've discussed should probably be put into one big miscalaneous (or however its spelt) thread which can be discussed in further detail

 

[Mr. Doom]

There have been times when I would do a neutral air to my death while using the c-stick set to smash. They are on rare occasions, but it is possible to do a neutral air using a smash c-stick.

 

[san.]

I tried replicating it before, Mr. Doom, but I have no idea what control stick/ C-stick combination you use to get that input.

 

[Nysyarc]

There have been times when I would do a neutral air to my death while using the c-stick set to smash. They are on rare occasions, but it is possible to do a neutral air using a smash c-stick.

I'm still veeery skeptical on that one, cause no one else seems to have that issue and I've tested it with all four diagonals of the Smash c-stick with no results. It's weird, but I've never had it happen myself or heard anyone else mention that it's possible so I dunno...

It's definitely not do-able on command with the Smash stick, so it's not really worth mentioning.

Edit: Hardcore ninja'd.

 

[Foodies]

Another pro for smash stick is that it's easier to do an upsmash out of a run.

Spoiler

Even though that's what got me killed against Kirk.

 

[Nysyarc]

Another pro for smash stick is that it's easier to do an upsmash out of a run.

Spoiler

Even though that's what got me killed against Kirk.

Not really, that is one thing that I would say is equal both ways. Plus by using the A button and manually inputting the Usmash, you have the option of charging it. I've actually never messed up a manual sliding Usmash, and I don't think I've ever heard of it being messed up by anyone else either.

 

[Ussi]

Hitting grab charges smashes when using smash stick

 

[Nysyarc]

Hitting grab charges smashes when using smash stick

Makes sense, but couldn't you just use Z to do the smash anyways? My point is that it makes no difference, lol.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

About Smash stick, I was fooling around with it trying out timings with fair/bair/uair on the sandbag on the practice room (inb4sandbagsucksforpracticebecauseofweirdphysics). I actually suffered from the jump glitch and started jumping instead of actually doing aerials. I even moved while jumping even though I had tapped the control stick up and only up. I assume the jump glitch because I was also trying a Fair when I moved and I moved forward. It's either the glitch or my controller is being used too much.

 

[Nysyarc]

(inb4sandbagsucksforpracticebecauseofweirdphysics)

The sandbag sucks for practice because of weird physics.

Seriously though, the jump glitch is very weird and nobody understands exactly 100% of the circumstances in which it can happen. It could be your controller but I dunno. I've been careful with buffering recently and I haven't had any issues with the jump glitch in a long time.

Also, on the subject of the guide itself:

I think once we have all the sections done we should make an index or a table of contents if you will. Next to each section in the table of contents would be a number inside a set of brackets, like so:

[01]

That same number inside the same brackets would then be next to the section in the actual guide, so you could go to the table of contents (which would have the number [00] next to it for quick reference), find what section you want, Ctrl + F the [##] next to it and skip ahead to that section.

I think it's a good idea because the OP is going to be freaking enormous when we're done with this. Obviously the table of contents would have a note indicating that the numbers in brackets are there for a reason and to use the Ctrl + F function to make use of them.

 

[Meneil]

Seriously though, the jump glitch is very weird and nobody understands exactly 100% of the circumstances in which it can happen. It could be your controller but I dunno. I've been careful with buffering recently and I haven't had any issues with the jump glitch in a long time.

Admittedly this was some time ago, but back when I switched and started practicing with tilt stick, I talked to Rykoshet about that jump glitch. Apparently it occurs when you input a command before you can execute it; so buffering, minus the part where the attack comes out; instead you just jump. He also told me that if you hold down on the control stick while using the tilt stick you will not jump.

I took his advice and so far I have not had the jump glitch occur while momentum canceling.

Also for the whole tilt stick vs smash stick discussion thing-
My logic is kind of backwards compared to most people in that I find it easier for special controls for each character, instead of universal controls for all characters. (I have 3 different control schemes >.>)

Recently I've been switching between smash and tilt stick depending upon who my opponent is using, and also upon their style of play. If my opponent never recovers low then there's no point for me to keep the tilt stick on. Especially for characters like G&W and MK; smash DI becomes much more important. Of course if you use tilt stick for Nair that adds more weight to keeping the tilt stick. I've been experimenting with tilt-stick Nairs more recently.

 

[Mr. Doom]

I tried replicating it before, Mr. Doom, but I have no idea what control stick/ C-stick combination you use to get that input.

Hardcore ninja'd.

You don't have to believe me, but every time I did it (which was rare), I tried to buffer a b-air out of shield while on the edge after getting my shield pressured. The n-air would occur after that happened.

I don't recall hitting the c-stick in any angle divisible by 45.

 

[san.]

Hopefully while you were sliding the opposite way, the cstick didn't make your shield do a grab input (shield + "attack") canceling the directional part of your cstick input because of the shield slide, and the input gets canceled to something else quickly because you immediately fall off the edge.

*shrug* that's the only way I can kind of see it. Something weird with sliding shields and cstick inputs lol.

 

[Mr. Doom]

I'd call it faulty programming. You get bugs like that when you don't program things correctly. However, the programmers may have desinged this on purpose...