How To Deal With Specific Enemy Moves #11----TOON LINK + SPAM

[Half-Split Soul]

Hurrah, this threat got unlocked! I did some testing about Lucario´s dair vs Zelda and was worried that I couldn´t post the results anywhere... but now I can! This is also very good and useful threat.

Im not sure if Zelda's up-tilt out beats Lucario's Dair, but her F-smash does. (someone test this, cause Im not sure)

Zelda´s U-tilt can outrange Lucario´s Dair, but it takes very good timing. Her U-smash on the other hand can´t do that.

Depending on how strong your shield is, and where Cario is placed, His Dair will weaken your shield and could skim the top of Zelda's head doing damage. This happens to most Tall characters in brawl, Could happen to Zelda too. (Sigh... again not 100% sure, someone check this too, thanks)

When I tested this Zelda´s Shield protected her very well even without tilting it up. Only when it was really small Lucario was able to shieldpoke her. There were some occasional times when he shieldpoked her when she had reasonable amount of shield left, but they were really rare. Too rare to count on, anyway.



Now some info for Zelda players (Lucarios propably now this already): He can do 2 Dairs in shorthop, 3 in full jump and 5 in douplejump. His Dair also isn´t strong enough (knockback-wise) to usually kill alone if DIed.


And as an unrelated thing, I learned that Lucario can sort-of cancel his U-b by aiming at the ledge from abowe. It most likely is known already, but it was new to me

 

[Kataefi]

Half-split, is it possible for you to test Zelda's ftilt against GnW's bair? Some say when it's angled upwards it beats out his bair reliably?

Also, I'm surprised that Utilt outranges dair. It can't surely, considering the absurd range of his dair? Are you sure it doesn't outprioritise it when they clash or something of the sort?

good work though!

 

[sniperworm]

Half-split, is it possible for you to test Zelda's ftilt against GnW's bair? Some say when it's angled upwards it beats out his bair reliably?

I believe you're talking about me right? I'm not so sure if I'd use the word reliably because I've only been able to beat out G&W's Bair if he comes in high with it (I guess the turtle would be snapping at my head/face?). You have to reach up and under him to win IMO, so if the turtle is at Zelda's shoulder or lower I don't see the Ftilt beating him.

But yes, please test if you can, I'm sure the Zelda community would be interested in the results.

 

[Rykoshet]

Just get out from under lucario and kick his aerial stalling dairing *** for abusing that move.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Half-split, is it possible for you to test Zelda's ftilt against GnW's bair? Some say when it's angled upwards it beats out his bair reliably?

Sure, I´ll test that when I get home. I might experiment some other things too while I get at it...

Also, I'm surprised that Utilt outranges dair. It can't surely, considering the absurd range of his dair? Are you sure it doesn't outprioritise it when they clash or something of the sort?

good work though!

I can assure you, I´d never have expected it myself either, but it definitely outranges his Dair. The difference in range is so small that I don´t think anyone will be able to use it in actual battles to their advantage, but it still exists. The reason why I´m sure that it outranged Dair instead of outpriorisicing it is that Lucario is completely still when Dairing. If he dairs just abowe Zelda so that he just barely misses, Utilt hits him (his toes to be more exact) while he´s still in his attack animation.

 

[Bandit]

I would assume Uair wins in this match-up due to the large range. This is great to punish if he is stalling.

If he is trying to come down and dair, either shield it (since it is so easy to see coming) or punish their bad spacing with Usmash. You can Usmash OoS and punish this easily.

 

[Villi]

I can assure you, I´d never have expected it myself either, but it definitely outranges his Dair. The difference in range is so small that I don´t think anyone will be able to use it in actual battles to their advantage, but it still exists. The reason why I´m sure that it outranged Dair instead of outpriorisicing it is that Lucario is completely still when Dairing. If he dairs just abowe Zelda so that he just barely misses, Utilt hits him (his toes to be more exact) while he´s still in his attack animation.

Does that mean if his hitbox is out while she's up tilting, the attacks will trade? His hitbox extends farther than his toes and I see it hitting Zelda's arm as she executes her attack.

Also, while up tilt out ranges the 1% hits of Zelda's up smash, the 5% hit out ranges up tilt. Up tilt does sound like the better move for the job if you don't just wanna shield and up smash him.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Does that mean if his hitbox is out while she's up tilting, the attacks will trade?

Strange enough, no. Even in that situation Zelda swings her arm completely normally and hits Lucario without suffering at all herself. This really makes me wonder, because as far as I know her arm isn´t disjointed hitbox, but it acts just like it were.

Half-split, is it possible for you to test Zelda's ftilt against GnW's bair? Some say when it's angled upwards it beats out his bair reliably?

Tested, and I must say that Zelda´s range really keeps surprising me over and over again. Her F-tilt was almost identical in range to G&W´s Bair. It even barely outranged it when the turtle was in its shorter position. On its longest position it outranged Zelda though.

If G&W was coming from above Zelda´s up-angled F-tilt hit him way earlier than his turtle hit her, although the timing was hard when G&W was fastfalling. If he wasn´t it was actually pretty easy to beat his Bair.

If G&W came from the same height as Zelda (the usual situation) F-tilt didn´t work though. His continuous hitboxes prevented F-tilt´s hitbox from coming out before Zelda was hit. Since lots of F-tilt´s range comes from the step Zelda takes while executing the move, it won´t help the situation.

And since I started examining G&W´s Bair, I decided to test if I could find any way to punish it. What I came up was pretty reliable solution for shieldpoking. It´s very simple: if G&W Baired Zelda´s shield, she could spotdodge straight out of it without getting hit. So if she shielded the beginning of the attack and spotdodged when G&W was closer to ground, she avoided being hit completely and could even occasionally punish with guaranteed smash before G&W got out of the lag.

 

[Kataefi]

Half-split that is really good info! Definitely going in the OP at some point.

I think the different angles of Ftilt are things we havn't really experimented with!

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Cool! I´ll get quoted lol!

^but hopefully not that

You´re absolutely right about angled F-tilt. I know that I almost never angle it or don´t even know how much the hitbox and other stuff change when angling it. Maybe I should start studying that next...

 

[Kataefi]

OP updated!

Okay, I want to talk about Snake's grenades and his Ftilt. I want to focus more on Ftilt, but I can't help but notice some videos of DarkMusician fighting snake. He would SHAD to catch a grenade and then get close to Snake and shield, exploding him up into the air ready to be punished.

- How do you avoid grenades?
- How do you avoid his Ftilt?

About his Ftilt, it's first hit is on frame 4. It has good range, priority and knockback. I suggest not punishing it at all and just rolling away to gather your thoughts and spacing. Zelda has no other move except DSmash, Nayru's and Dtilt to reliably tackle this move head on.

 

[SuSa]

- When grenading a character, what is the reaction you expect or want?
We want them to try and approach for a cooked grenade, or stay on the ground to get hit by the one we threw. Your best option is to get to the air and try to hit us or our grenade with Din's Fire. Nayru's Love is another decent option to beat our grenade camping but won't always work.


- What do you do if the camping goes wrong?
Ftilt/DAC/Jab/Utilt. Zelda will have to get close to hit us, which is something shes lacking a bit. Our utilt outranges all but you're Fsmash I believe. Also, your Fsmash > our ftilt

- What moves from Zelda are you wary of when she approaches or you approach her?
Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, Up-B, SH nair (it sort of keeps us in) Also, silly Zelda mains... Snake doesn't approach unless he's forced to we prefer to camp with 'nades

- How safe is Ftilt and when do you use it?
Ftilt is extremely safe, and I use it whenever the 2nd hit can hit. Your best hope is to roll away or behind us because the end lag is devious... you may think you can hit us, but you can probably only get a jab or dsmash in.

- How can Zelda punish it?

Zelda really can't unless she manages to avoid it and use a Jab/Dsmash >.>

thats all I can really help.... My Zelda isn't exactly my best of my Randoms

 

[cycon365]

OP updated!

Okay, I want to talk about Snake's grenades and his Ftilt. I want to focus more on Ftilt, but I can't help but notice some videos of DarkMusician fighting snake. He would SHAD to catch a grenade and then get close to Snake and shield, exploding him up into the air ready to be punished.

- How do you avoid grenades?
- How do you avoid his Ftilt?

About his Ftilt, it's first hit is on frame 4. It has good range, priority and knockback. I suggest not punishing it at all and just rolling away to gather your thoughts and spacing. Zelda has no other move except DSmash, Nayru's and Dtilt to reliably tackle this move head on.

As far as thrown grenades go, I would suggest nayru's love, unless you notice a snake cooking a grenade at which point you should just air dodge or shield.

Never throw a grenade back at snake, A smart snake can stop it in mid-air, dodge it or just shield it.

As far as snake holding and exploding with a shield, if you powershield, you could easily get a grab in.


His Ftilt will be used interchangably with his jab. Spamming Din's fire would hold snake back anyway, but if he closes in, try to spot dodge and perform a quick move.

Also, Ftilt is good area control to set up C4, avoiding it is basically keeping snake at a mid to long range, and quickly dodging the moment he closes in, but never dodge towards snake unless he already starts Ftilt as it's a pretty easy move to use on roll spammers


that's just my take though, i'm sure someone else will probably give better advice

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

for snake's ftilt...
-just get better positioning and Ftilt/Fsmash
-Dsmash him to clank with it... or beat him out if you input first
-I wouldn't recomend nayru's unless you have great timing.
-Sheild and then OoS grab, Usmash or even bair/fair works great if he completes the 2 hit combo consistently.
- Avoiding is always a nice option.

Grenades
-Turn to sheik. Needles > Nades 9 times out of 10
- use nayru's on noncooked grenades.
- be careful trying to countercamp with din's. you'll need to keep a close eye on the nades and be vary familiar with din's blast radius. you also need to be sure not to get greedy and to focus on halting grenades rather than trading hits.
- sheild and spotdodge can work wonders.
-beware trying to catch grenades with "a" if your timing is off, the grenade will bounce off of Zelda and she'll jab it and make it explode on herself. (nayru's can do the same thing if you are slow)
-glidetossing is normally not the best option against snake unless you have a specific plan in mind even once you DO catch it.

 

[Taeran]

Generally, its better to have a higher controller port than snake, so he can't do the old, hah hah I'm invincibly grabbing you and your getting blown up by grenades.

He (or I) get blown up if you have a higher port though.

I'm pretty clueless about Zelda, but I'll just give you general advice vs Snake.

OoS grabs help a lot against ftilt, like any other move.

Din's Fire Can sometimes outcamp grenades.

Sheik. Needle over Grenades most of the time.

Don't try to catch cooked 'nades.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Yay, I can contribute this time! I play against a pretty good Snake main on a regular basis, so...

Rolling behind Snake's Ftilt and punishing with Dsmash/Nayru's works surprisingly well, Zelda's roll distance is just right to get behind Snake's Ftilt. Though if you overuse this you risk decaying your Dsmash too much, so either switch with Nayru's from time to time or be aware that Dsmash is decayed and look for other kill options.

As for nades, like said before exploding cooked nades with a well-aimed Din's glide gives you a chance to get in a move/grab due to the shieldstun he takes from Din's and the grenade.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If you shield Snake´s F-tilt it often ends up being powershielded due to the speed of the move. If Snake uses the second attack, you can also try to powershield that (it isn´t as hard as it sounds) and punish after that with F-tilt or F-smash. If you shield Snake´s F-tilt coming from behind, you can even try to use OoS Bair.

It´s usually better to try to avoid ´nades than trying to use them against Snake. They have either been cooked or he can read your movements well ahead.

That´s all I have for now.

 

[8AngeL8]

When grenading a character, what is the reaction you expect or want?

Grenades serve two purposes. 1. Force the other player to approach. 2. Force the other player into a position in which Snake is advantaged. When I'm throwing grenades, I want to place them so that you are forced to come to me in a manner that I can destroy you with tilts, grabs, and AAA combo.


- What do you do if the camping goes wrong?
Snake-dash away and camp more If I'm facing a character I can't outcamp, I try to close in using shield dashing and mortar sliding. I continue to use grenades, but they're usually shield dropped or used to counter your attacks. In this situation, I tend to rely more on Ftilt, nair, and AAA combo than usual.


- What moves from Zelda are you wary of when she approaches or you approach her?
Fsmash, Ftilt, Usmash, Nayru's love. They all have huge lingering disjointed hitboxes that make it hard for me to Ftilt her. Nayru's love also reflects grenades, which makes me a sad panda.

- How safe is Ftilt and when do you use it?
Constantly. As far as Snake's melee moves go it's his safest. Zelda DOES have ways of beating it, most prominently Fsmash. Rolling behind him to punish isn't safe, because Snake can just not do the second hit and do a pivot grab instead.


- How can Zelda punish it?
Fsmash, Roll away and Din's fire, or SH fair if it's timed right.

 

[Bandit]

In almost every situation, you never want to pick up the grenades. Snake can cause the first grenade he throws to fall instantly to the ground whether you are holding it or you have just thrown it and it is traveling in the air.

 

[sniperworm]

Tested, and I must say that Zelda´s range really keeps surprising me over and over again. Her F-tilt was almost identical in range to G&W´s Bair. It even barely outranged it when the turtle was in its shorter position. On its longest position it outranged Zelda though.

If G&W was coming from above Zelda´s up-angled F-tilt hit him way earlier than his turtle hit her, although the timing was hard when G&W was fastfalling. If he wasn´t it was actually pretty easy to beat his Bair.

If G&W came from the same height as Zelda (the usual situation) F-tilt didn´t work though. His continuous hitboxes prevented F-tilt´s hitbox from coming out before Zelda was hit. Since lots of F-tilt´s range comes from the step Zelda takes while executing the move, it won´t help the situation.

Yes, finally some validation. I've been saying for a while that Ftilt can beat G&W Bair, I'm just happy that it's been confirmed and maybe other Zelda's will use my little trick too.

Half-Split - what do you mean by G&W coming from the same height? I've only tried beating out my friend's Bair when he short-hopped it (does this count as same height or coming from above) so I'm wondering what you mean by the same height.

By the way, are you guys serious about not angling Zelda's Ftilt? Am I really the only one who does that?

 

[Kaffei]

This is going to be very general, but yeah, whatever.

I found it easier to fight snake closer up, so, basically staying close is best.
Farore's Wind is an option, but you can't use it stupidly & predictably.

 

[Villi]

One thing I don't think to do is glide toss grenades. Once, I accidentally brain farted and tried to glide toss a grenade when Snake forced me to drop it; instead of fsmashing the grenade like what should have happened since I c-stick throw, I just rolled away.

Usually, I try to be wary of how long Snake has cooked his grenades but some Snakes are quite good at sensory overload. @_@ So just Din'sing him and trying to be aware of the other stuff he's doing (like land mines, c-4's, and Snake dash spacing) might be a better option.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just popping in to say hi to the Peach board's sister thread It's looking great ^^ keep up the good work

Remember, if a grenade hits you and doesn't explode, it'll bounce off you very slightly. Don't spam jab where you were standing as you won't pick it up if this happens and you may get a face full of explosions D:

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Half-Split - what do you mean by G&W coming from the same height? I've only tried beating out my friend's Bair when he short-hopped it (does this count as same height or coming from above) so I'm wondering what you mean by the same height.

What I mean is that Zelda´s Fair can´t beat G&W´s Bair directly (or at least I couldn´t do that) but it can hit G&W if it doesn´t hit his Bair.

Maybe this makes it easier to understand:

Z = Zelda
G = G&W
__ = Zelda´s F-tilt hitbox
--- = G&W´s Bair hitbox

If situation is like this, Bair will win:
Z------G

But if it´s like this, Zelda can get a hit in:
___---G
Z---

That´s exaggeration, but the basic idea remains the same. If you hit shorthopping G&W you either hit him before his Bair hitbox had come out or before his turtle was at a level where it could hit Zelda. That, or my tests are still uncomplete.

 

[sniperworm]

What I mean is that Zelda´s Fair can´t beat G&W´s Bair directly (or at least I couldn´t do that) but it can hit G&W if it doesn´t hit his Bair.

Maybe this makes it easier to understand:

Z = Zelda
G = G&W
__ = Zelda´s F-tilt hitbox
--- = G&W´s Bair hitbox

If situation is like this, Bair will win:
Z------G

But if it´s like this, Zelda can get a hit in:
___---G
Z---

That´s exaggeration, but the basic idea remains the same. If you hit shorthopping G&W you either hit him before his Bair hitbox had come out or before his turtle was at a level where it could hit Zelda. That, or my tests are still uncomplete.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. From your description, I'm pretty sure that means that you and I are on the same page, so that's good. Because like I said somewhere before, if the turtle is at Zelda's shoulders or lower, it seems impossible to Ftilt him.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. From your description, I'm pretty sure that means that you and I are on the same page, so that's good. Because like I said somewhere before, if the turtle is at Zelda's shoulders or lower, it seems impossible to Ftilt him.

Sounds right. Good thing that my tests supported your experieces. I think that makes it confirmed then. =)

Now, let´s get back to snake, shall we?

If you get close to Snake and expect to get F-tilted, Nayru may be a viable option. When predicted the invincibility can protect Zelda and the move itself sends Snake a bit away, but still not far enough for him to start grenade camp right away. Even if Snake rolls behind you, Nayru still often punishes him.

As Kaffei stated, using Farore sparingly can help Zelda get past grenade camping, but that´s always a risky option, because if Snake reacts in time she´ll eat a F-tilt/smash or U-tilt.

 

[sniperworm]

In my very limited experience vs Snake, I find that shielding is probably the best way to "stop" Snake's Ftilt. It seems like a really solid move that is very difficult to punish if used correctly. I usually try to move around and screw up their spacing so maybe I can punish. But honestly I don't do well against Snake, so I'm hoping some good strategy comes up here.

As far as grenades, they don't seem to bother me too much. If he tries to grenade camp I usually just camp Din's back at him. Both characters have powerful projectiles that are difficult to actually hit the opponent with, but Zelda's leaves her more open, so often Snake will get bored and try to run in with a mortar slide. But maybe they come to me because people know that I'll camp if you let me (since it is my strong point) and I usually come out ahead in a campfest.

But yeah, overall I'll be looking and waiting for input from people who have more experience (and success) versus Chuck Norris.

 

[MRTW113]

In my very limited experience vs Snake, I find that shielding is probably the best way to "stop" Snake's Ftilt. It seems like a really solid move that is very difficult to punish if used correctly. I usually try to move around and screw up their spacing so maybe I can punish. But honestly I don't do well against Snake, so I'm hoping some good strategy comes up here.

As far as grenades, they don't seem to bother me too much. If he tries to grenade camp I usually just camp Din's back at him. Both characters have powerful projectiles that are difficult to actually hit the opponent with, but Zelda's leaves her more open, so often Snake will get bored and try to run in with a mortar slide. But maybe they come to me because people know that I'll camp if you let me (since it is my strong point) and I usually come out ahead in a campfest.

But yeah, overall I'll be looking and waiting for input from people who have more experience (and success) versus Chuck Norris.

I do the same, but most Snakes will stop at the first hit and go for a grab. Just shield-grab first.

 

[Fieryblast]

My first post here... but perhaps my observations would be helpful?

Grenade camping is never really a worry for me when I face a Snake. If the Snake user starts cooking them, and it becomes obvious he just intends to keep throwing them, the only option is to approach. Snake is surprisingly vulnerable to Zelda in some aspects of close-range combat-- I find you can catch him in a d-tilt lock relatively easily, or when he is at high percentages, a dtilt will likely bounce him up just high enough to be in perfect range for a USmash or Utilt. So yes, a cautious approach is really all that can be done. As an added example, Din's Fire can be canceled when the grenade hits you... thus it most likely won't hit the snake... and you'll be hit instead. Also, if the Snake user cooks the grenade perfectly, Nayru's Love will not protect you from the explosion.

Snake's Utilt has freakish speed, range, and power, but one aspect of it addresses a problem of Zelda we should be accustomed to already-- the fact that she doesn't have much of a way to protect herself from below. Obviously you should try not to fall directly over Snake (or really, any character, for that matter). I find that Snake users don't tend to go in the air much, so if you used Farore's Wind every once in a while, it'd probably be a pretty safe option... so long as you use it intelligently. Of course, if you can make it safely to the ledge, that is probably the best option. Honestly, in terms of what a Snake does while you are above them, I usually see them just using their usmash-- though I guess if you get in close range they might use the utilt. He could hit you while you're on the ground with it, but you probably shouldn't be right on top of him like that in the first place. In that case, I'd imagine it to be an issue of spacing. There is no real way to instantly punish it (as far as I can tell), but if you can shield it, you can probably trap him in a dtilt lock or do dtilt > usmash or dtilt > utilt.

 

[Villi]

Nice post, blast. But when you said Snake rarely goes into the air, I would be careful of ones who like to do autocanceled nairs. That's a ***** to get caught up in. If you see double jump ripples when he does his nair, don't try to punish it unless you can get him before he touches the ground cuz he'll have no lag

 

[Kataefi]

I just recently fought a snake. Both hits of his Ftilt can be spotdodged to whatever. I was doing spotdodge to grab reliably in order to save my kill moves on him.

You can do this especially when they begin to get predictable with their Ftilts.

Blast, welcome! are you a zelda main?

 

[Fieryblast]

Yup, I've been a Zelda main since pretty much the beginning. I've been lurking these boards for a while, but finally decided to post a little bit since I've apparently gotten to my plateau... I can't seem to improve from where I am right now. While I do play in a competitive fashion, I'm not normally involved in real-life tournaments-- which I guess automatically puts a lot of you guys a few dozen leagues above me in skill. At the same time, I wouldn't say I'm an utter n00b, I have played a lot and have been involved with clans.

 

[Villi]

I just recently fought a snake. Both hits of his Ftilt can be spotdodged to whatever. I was doing spotdodge to grab reliably in order to save my kill moves on him.

You can do this especially when they begin to get predictable with their Ftilts.

That's one Snake. Don't count on Snake to button mash forward A -- he can easily alter the timing to beat a spot dodge and often times he will. Same with his jab combo.

 

[Saku]

Hit and run is my philosophy as far as this match-up is concerned. No follow-ups, no chasing, just one hit at a time while dancing around explosions and tumbles and working your way up to a chance to knock Snake off the edge with a Dsmash and edgehog to the best of possible ability.

Thinking about the grenades in specific, I notice that most Snake players just try to throw it straight ahead, or drop 'em. Nothing special is usually involved... so, I just jump when they're thrown to approach a little.

Ftilt, meanwhile... well, Dsmash usually becomes my best friend when I get close to a Snake and feel as if they'll try it, but I've found that I can jab him out of it or even counter with a downward ftilt so long as I don't run right into his attack (or run at all).

But, then again, I have difficulties when facing off against some Snake players, so... this is probably not favorable advice.. :\
Thank heavens for this thread and learning in general, ah?

 

[Villi]

My strategy is Sheik. >.> lol

 

[Kataefi]

Hit and run is actually quite good. I walk around grenades, shielding whenever necessary, and simply take everything one step at a time. I find I can space against him really well this way. The moment you're overwhelmed could be the moment you lose.

And fiery whether n00b or not, any input matters ^^ I don't partake in tournaments but I'm confident in my Zelda (soon-to-be Zelda/Sheik!). I play in scrub tournaments but that's because I have a lot of offline players who are all really into smash and lurk the smashboards trying to get better.

I'd love to see how I fare in the tournament scene though. I don't think there's many UK Zeldas out there anyways... so experience against her would be minimal.

 

[cycon365]

Thinking about the grenades in specific, I notice that most Snake players just try to throw it straight ahead, or drop 'em. Nothing special is usually involved... so, I just jump when they're thrown to approach a little.

Well, yeah, I fought a couple of people who didn't block grenades but just spotdodged it so it would fly offscreen, and then when I stop grenades in mid-air, they'd move out of the way and spot dodge my second grenade, Nikita is too slow, and mortar is ranged, so I would be forced to close in

 

[Kataefi]

Seems like this move has been reasonably discussed. Shall we move onto the next move?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[MRTW113]

Seems like this move has been reasonably discussed. Shall we move onto the next move?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

WIGI'S JAB COMBO>FIRE JUMP PUNCH

...Sorry for shouting, but this has been brought up recently on another post. Something about NL to escape...
That or Luigi's f-smash...

 

[Bandit]

Since it is in another thread you should go talk about it there. The point is to talk about moves that aren't being talked about.