How To Deal With Specific Enemy Moves #11----TOON LINK + SPAM

[Kataefi]

FW isn't a bad idea at all. It just gets predictable after 2 or 3 times and enough for peach to not get caught off guard again. It's something that shouldn't be done consistently. The yellow ribbon on startup is disjointed. She gains invisibility frames after a tad bit of lag. Time it well and nothing will hit her, and she escapes the momentum of peach's float approaches. Messing up the timing is a dumb idea, and I understand that it's difficult to time well, so I vaguely see your point.

However, the ribbon itself comes out fast. If it touches peach even in the slightest it will tap her out of float. It's an attack that's slightly faster than any of her aerials except nair, but it's completely ineffective if a peach spaces herself and TOTALLY useless if the peach uses Fair alot, because that move has great priority and range and Fw has barely any range at all.

I use this once or twice a match for """"mindgames"""" >.> So Villi don't think it's a powerful defensive tool, I'm only stating a possibility in mixing it up as Zelda.

Seconding peach and playing against her quite a lot has allowed me to understand that she's all about baiting Zelda's moves, otherwise she'll have a hard time -- One thing I havn't tried however is Utilt. How does Utilt fare against Peach?

And I find din's to be relatively good from long range distances. The angled shield is also VERY handy.

 

[Villi]

. . . it's completely ineffective if a peach spaces herself and TOTALLY useless if the peach uses Fair alot, because that move has great priority and range and Fw has barely any range at all.

I use this once or twice a match . . .

How ridiculously indulgent of you to add it to the OP as a valid counter, then. FW isn't as fast as you think it is.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

If by FW you means Zeldas Up + B then I've got to agree that's a very very unreliable idea indeed

Does Din's Fire work or does Peachs Dair outprioritze it? Perhaps you aim it high enough but I don't play Zelda so I haven't a clue

Villi's suggestion of Up Smashing her is by far the best for tackling Peach's Float/Dair with Zelda

 

[Kataefi]

How ridiculously indulgent of you to add it to the OP as a valid counter, then. FW isn't as fast as you think it is.

This is a discussion, one that is meant to be updated. The bullet points I place are there to be agreed on and challenged by the community, which you have done Villi.

I shall get rid of it until we come to a strong community agreement on the use of FW to tap Peach out of float and proper testing. As of now it's not looking good as a strong defensive tool, and yes I did say this earlier. But I also said it's rare use can catch a Peach off guard, which may be handy.

FW is actually very fast on startup. It's the priority on startup that hinders it as a safe move.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Villi's suggestion of Up Smashing her is by far the best for tackling Peach's Float/Dair with Zelda

Usually the simplest things work the best. Same goes for here: shield->U-smash is thing that's often most reliable and usable way to punish floating Peach just as Villi said.

However, OoS LK can sometimes be worth the risk, if U-smash is staled or you want to be flashy.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

farore's is an awful way to deal with peach's float. that's all I've got to say on the current issue... unless you mean teleporting INTO it, which isn't gonna be an option a lot of the time.

 

[Kataefi]

farore's is an awful way to deal with peach's float. that's all I've got to say on the current issue... unless you mean teleporting INTO it, which isn't gonna be an option a lot of the time.

Yep. I have come to understand this.
But I can't deny I have tapped many peach's from float using it when she is slightly above me.

Also, I'm truly keen to know. If Peach's fair and nayru's collide, which will win? Can nayru's win in anyway? Because peach's fair has excellent priority.

And how reliable is din's?

 

[RoyalBlood]

Farore's Wind OoS ;3 It works wonders XD

 

[Kataefi]

Farore's Wind OoS ;3 It works wonders XD

From my personal experience, it has worked for me, OoS or not. I don't abuse it, I don't make it predictable, I use it sparingly and it always seems to work =D

Seems like I'm greeted with a very mixed response on this move :/

But the general consensus says it is awful. Well, 3 people do :D

 

[RoyalBlood]

Farore's Priority grows greater the more Zelda is about to finish her animatiom, it's what helps Zelda against other moves ;3

 

[Villi]

Farore's Priority grows greater the more Zelda is about to finish her animatiom, it's what helps Zelda against other moves ;3

Oh? How did you determine that?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The problem with FW is that Peach can see it MILES off. What's stopping her from using Toad/dodging and punishing the lag?

 

[RoyalBlood]

Oh? How did you determine that?

XD Let's see i'm not too sure but I'll try.
A normal Peach turnip stops FW on her opening and mid- animation, but if Zelda is almost finishing, FW takes priority ;3 It sometimes blocks Sonic's or Falco's aerials XD

NOTE THAT I'M NOT TOO SURE BUT IT HAS HAPPENED TO ME SO IF YOU WANT YOU CAN GO TO TEST

Dunno how/why happened :3 Might be false too though

 

[Kataefi]

The problem with FW is that Peach can see it MILES off. What's stopping her from using Toad/dodging and punishing the lag?

The yellow ribbon on startup is what will throw peach off. It comes out fast, is disjointed, surrounds Zelda's entire body and does grow in priority. I'm almost certain, though open to be proven otherwise.

I came to this mindset because everyday I train against a good falco who gives at nothing to spike me. He'll achieve this when he spikes at the start of the startup of FW. If he does this at the end of the startup of FW he'll be hurt, though by a miniscule amount.


RoyalBlood we posted roughly at the same time and came to the same conclusion. >.> Spoooky =O

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yep. I have come to understand this.
But I can't deny I have tapped many peach's from float using it when she is slightly above me.

Also, I'm truly keen to know. If Peach's fair and nayru's collide, which will win? Can nayru's win in anyway? Because peach's fair has excellent priority.

And how reliable is din's?

Fair has more priority and range, however, Nayru's has invincibility frames so if the timing is right then, yes, nayru's can trade or even sometimes win out against fair... but much more often that will not be the case because the timing is strict.


oh, and farore's has crap priority and worse range. it's terribly punishable and if it's working for you that's only because your foes aren't expecting it.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

My tip for Zelda players is to realize that attacking while floating is not the only thing Peach can do. Remember that Peach players can cancel her float, virtually, anytime they feel like it. When a Peach comes in a floating Dair, what's stopping her from float canceling, leaving her ready to do an insta-Dsmash or double jab when Zelda is recovering from a shield?

It takes more than a 1, 2 step process to beat peach players, be ready for anything and read your opponents well.

 

[Kataefi]

Remember that Peach players can cancel her float, virtually, anytime they feel like it. When a Peach comes in a floating Dair, what's stopping her from float canceling, leaving her ready to do an insta-Dsmash or double jab when Zelda is recovering from a shield?

Nayru's
DSmash
FW <-- (I know, I know, controversial move XD)

They attack faster than Peach's Dsmash which hits on frame 6. All Zelda has to do is shield a bit longer, wait for peach's dsmash to finish, and voila - punish that lag! :D

DSmash is 4 frames :O This is perhaps my most overused move after a spot dodge.

Peach IS tricky! But even tricker if you don't understand her moveset! Zelda just needs to capitalise on OoS options (which she has many)! XD

I might move onto a new move soon.
Are we all happy about this discussion with peach's float?
And does anyone want to nominate a notorious move in aid of Zelda?

 

[-Mars-]

We could discuss Marths fair, Marth's up b OoS, Marths dtilt, Marths dancing blade, or Marths fsmash. Oh and I wouldn't mind discussing Ikes fair either.

 

[Kataefi]

That's so many moves! XD
I suggest Marth, because he's quite tough to handle, though bearable

I'm going to do Marth's Fair approach... Up b out of the shield is just too quick for the human eye to catch. You'll just have to guess when it's coming.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

powersheild to LK or regular sheild to OoS Usmash is the best I've done for marth's fair approach.

 

[-Mars-]

Lately i've been shorthopping uairs and scoring a few hits, it still doesn't hit if they properly space the fair and if you miss it leaves you open for Dancing Blade gayness. Something to keep in mind though. The disjointed hit box sometimes surprises them.

Full hop airdodges to a bair or a nair is my best method against it. If they're using retreating fairs then just let them while you sit back.

God Marth is hard, when he lands from the fair he has fsmash and dtilt to keep you from rushing in, so his fair wall sometimes seems broken.

 

[Steel]

Marth would have to like.. land on you to get hit by an up smash after a fair approach.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Marth would have to like.. land on you to get hit by an up smash after a fair approach.

yeah... sometimes they just assume they are going to hit with it and so they keep moving forwards to follow up.

I was reading this as fair approach rather than fair poke.... poking you'll need to sliding Usmash to reach.

 

[Steel]

Same thing really. Marth is going to be hitting you with the tip of his blade and land at a safe distance. If you PS i'd recommend a dash attack or something... Unless he does a double fair; Zelda may not be quick enough.

 

[Kataefi]

yeah... sometimes they just assume they are going to hit with it and so they keep moving forwards to follow up.

I was reading this as fair approach rather than fair poke.... poking you'll need to sliding Usmash to reach.

Oops! I didn't know Fair approach was so specific XD

Shall we just cover Fair in general? So yes yes talk about everything this move has like how good it is at poking etc etc... and what Zelda can do!

It's 5am where I am zzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Same thing really. Marth is going to be hitting you with the tip of his blade and land at a safe distance. If you PS i'd recommend a dash attack or something... Unless he does a double fair; Zelda may not be quick enough.

Zelda's dash attack and Usmash are both very quick. Usmash is 6 frames, I think and I'm pretty sure dash attack is one of her fastest attacks.

 

[-Mars-]

She also lunges forward a decent distance while using dash attack. Good thing this was brought up, i've never thought of using it. It also has decent priority and it may beat some of Marths ground options........i'll check this.

 

[-Ran]

Short Hop Sweet spotted Fair. Learn the timing, and you'll be able to get it. Louisiana's best Zelda can do it pretty **** well. It'll make a Marth stop fairing, that's for sure. Then again, Mocha can land a Sweet Spotted Fair/Bair against Meta Knight.

 

[-Mars-]

Short Hop Sweet spotted Fair. Learn the timing, and you'll be able to get it. Louisiana's best Zelda can do it pretty **** well. It'll make a Marth stop fairing, that's for sure. Then again, Mocha can land a Sweet Spotted Fair/Bair against Meta Knight.

Marth's fair outranges Zelda's fair easily.

 

[-Ran]

I'm not saying try to out space it. I'm saying attack him during the interval between the fairs. It's possible.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm not saying try to out space it. I'm saying attack him during the interval between the fairs. It's possible.

The timing for something like that is ridiculous and extremely unsafe. He can use an approaching fair then a retreating fair all in the same full hop with no danger of being punished.

 

[-Ran]

And most Marth's aren't going to even remotely expecting it. Learn the timing, and utilize it once a match. You're going to get kills. It's exactly what Mocha does with his Zelda vs most approaches. He learns the generic timing that people use for the character matches, and saves it as a kill.

 

[-Mars-]

Hmmmm, i'll look into it.

 

[Kataefi]

Sounds interesting!
I want mocha here to give us the lowdown!

As Marth approaches I tend to walk away from him at his pace and just out of his range and then immediately dash at him followed by grab or dash attack. It's not a concrete counter, but it has worked quite a few times.

Are Marth's hitboxes disjointed or single hits? I seem to spotdodge them so well :?

 

[Steel]

If that can actually be landed I don't see it working more than once.

Marth can turn his SH fair into a double fair wall where Zelda would get hit by the second fair if she tries to retaliate through the air.

Marth can also just DS through it if he sees it coming.

I can only see dash attack being your main punishing tool here.. maybe. Rolling behind marth is also a possibility, but he should be able to adjust once you do it a few times.

 

[Kataefi]

Ah I see.

I seem to be doing SH Farore's Wind into the opponent as well in the middle of their attacks or lag. I do this rarely though. I havn't tested it on Marth, but if the two attacks were to collide which would win?

 

[Steel]

I have no clue.

But I could also see retreating Din's as an option.

 

[Kataefi]

But Marth's Fair outprioritises it I think. Unless the fireball targets his back, which could work.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Din really doesn´t work, Marth´s fair protects him from it and if you can hit him in the back only if he has spaced very poorly or you´re really good.

I seem to be doing SH Farore's Wind into the opponent a lot as well in the middle of their attacks or lag. I havn't tested it on Marth, but if the two attacks were to collide which would win?

In most cases Marth is going to be in swords lenght from Zelda, winning thanks to disjointed hitbox. If FW however actually hits Marth thanks to surprise, he will propably take damage because the appearing attack is very fast. If both FW and Marth´s Fair hit, they´re almost guaranteed to trade hits as far as I know.

Of course Nayru´s love could be a possibility thanks to invincibility, but in practice it´s going to be a suicide to use it as counter because of Marth´s range and Nayru´s hard timing. So no help from that...

Shorthop Fair/Bair is very much possible, but only few times in every match or even less frequently. Of course, possible times may appear more often too. Also, it´s sometimes good idea to try to change hits with Marth, because it can give Zelda an opportunity to get offencive.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kataefi: You seem to be confused. All a disjointed hitbox means is a hitbox that isn't attached to a character's hurtbox. Attacks with weapons are the most common example of this.

Whether it's single hit or not doesn't matter in regards to a disjointed hitbox. I think what you meant to say was lingering hitbox, which is a hitbox that stays out for a longer duration then the animation frames of the attack or stays out for noticeable amount of time.

All of Marth's attacks are fast sword slashes that are disjointed. He has no lingering hitboxes.