This is a 'how to deal with' thread where we talk about notorious moves from other characters and how Zelda can approach and deal with them accordingly. Every so often we'll discuss different moves from other characters and see how Zelda fares (hopefully not too badly).
Round #11: Toon Link's Projectiles
- How do you avoid them?
- What are your strategies?
- What do you follow up with?
etc etc etc...
::SUMMARY OF NOTORIOUS MOVES::
- METAKNIGHT -
~ The Tornado # Discussion from page 1 to 2
* A well timed DSmash knocks metaknight out of a grounded tornado. Timing is not that strict - if you're slightly off then DSmash will cancel it out instead. Perform DSmash earlier than you expect, the best time being when the top left or right sides of the tornado are about to touch you.
* Running Nayru's hits metaknight out of a grounded tornado. Spacing and timing is essential.
* Dtilt cancels out a grounded tornado, even one that approaches. This is a solid defence but timing is needed.
* If the tornado is above you, Usmash and Uair especially will consistently beat it.
* If the tornado is below you fast fall nair and at worst it will trade hits. At best Zelda's nair will override the move and win. This must be done at the centre of the tornado.
* If you know you won't make the centre of the tornado, Dair will cancel it out at the sides of it. In the centre it's all very risky imo, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
I'll either sheild it or walk/run/jump/evade it until he breaks out. punishing him is much easier if you lure him into the air/onto a platform. And if the move has been out for a while, just sheild it and OoS LK him.
other things that work:
I KNOW I've timed/spaced Fsmashes properly to rip him out before. and a also know that, at a distance, Din's breaks him out.
Just remember to aim at Metaknight instead of trying to attack the tornado. If you can hit Meta his attack will stop and he´ll take damage, but if you hit the tornado either both moves will stop if they have same priority or at worst Meta will stop your attack and keep his tornado.
-DIDDY KONG-
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! (until you realise just how stressful the banana can be... XD)
The Banana Discussion from page 2 to 3
* Bananas are important to your game as much as they are to Diddy's. Glide toss like crazy and claim those bananas. Use forward, backward and reverse glide tossing. Zelda's glide toss is a beast.
* Zelda is a fortress. Claim the bananas and guard them. Stay near them and Diddy will have to invade, with a good chance of failing.
* Followups from glide tossing include:
follow ups:
- any smash attack really. Fsmash and Usmash work FANTASTICALLY well
- aerials (I've done this, glide toss to the edge of the stage and LK off of it.)
- jab works nice and leads to follow up
- grab if they sheild the bannana
* Claim bananas by jabbing and dash attacking into them. Aerials claim them if they are thrown at you. Other ways you can claim bananas include:
Easiest I find is SH airdodge,
The timing is soooooooooo lenient.
* Nayru's is your BEST friend. Time it well and begin the offense.
* Zelda can use din's on bananas to guard them. SH din's glide towards bananas. Follow this with a smash or claim the banana if you fall next to it. Alternatively din's at diddy to stop him getting bananas. FW to escape if possible.
When Diddy uses bananas, watching the spacing becomes crucial. Good Diddy not only uses them to approaches, but also puts them between you and himself to limit your options.
If this is the case, it might just be better to start camping with Din to force Diddy make the first move.
-PEACH-
The Float Discussion from page 3 to 4
* Zelda is anti-aeralist. Peach is no exception. USmash will catch anything Peach dishes out if attacks collide. Otherwise a good Peach will bait this move and attack after. Ensure you're not baited and be alert for Peach's patterns.
* Challenge the float with a jumping Nayru's reversal. Peach's Fair from float has excellent priority and odd timing, but Nayru's has invincibility and attacks after. Time Nayru's well, and when reversed it allows Zelda to possibly follow up with an LK.
Hmmm...I think Nayru's might work, but I wouldn't rely on the invinci. frames. You'd have to time yourself very well to do that. I'd try a F-smash if I wanna beat it, but mostly I'll just shield it and try to punish...
honestly, I use jab spam against peaches who try to float at me and then, when I think they don't expect it, mix in a forward smash. it actually works quite well unless they are too high, in which case you either avoid or try to OoS Usmash.
if they are far away though, din's.
* Nair is a viable option that will outspeed some of peach's aerials. Remember to space yourself correctly.
Hit her with a faster aerial, like a nair. If you predict correctly or if you're too close to her to wind-up and space her 16 frame fair/12 frame dair you will win. Naryu's love is pushing it (attack on frame 13, more lag than an air dodge, poor damage), up air works if she's dumb enough to be dairing in a position to be hit by it. Her air dodge sucks though, so she probably won't be in the habit of using it too much, but punish it if she is -- 'cause it sucks.
Don't get put in bad spacing by her floating. Maintain good spacing by walking with her if you can't just punish her.
The Float > Dair Discussion from page 3 to 4
Up smash out of shield after her fourth kick. That is the best, most reliable counter to a dair to your shield.
Get in the habit of tilting your shield up. She shouldn't be able to land safely next to you to stab your shield from a float.
- MARTH -
Fair Approach Discussion from page 4 to 6
* Marth's Fair approach is incredibly safe, but there may be opportunities to sneak in various attacks in between each of his consecutive fairs.
Fairing Marth between his fairs works as does running up smash, nair, dash attack, and Din's. Just wait til you see the first fair coming and go for it.
* Zelda is a punisher. There may be times when Marth badly spaces his Fair approaches. In which case Zelda can take advantage and be invasive.
The only way your punishing Marth's Fair is if its badly spaced. If so you have a few options:
a) Roll under and punish from behind on landing.
b) Move under and hyphen smash.
* Dash attack hits on frame 5 and has a surprisingly good vertical hitbox that can catch Marth off guard as he approaches.
* OoS options are viable. Ftilt is quick enough to catch out Marth if Zelda spaces herself well.
Shield and ftilt. Your ftilt is stupidly good. Also, camp Marth, and make him approach, then Fair OOS might work if you're amazing. FW is BAD. Retreating Din's is okay. Dash attack in between (frame 5, right?) might work.
* Don't teleport around using Farore's (FW). Strictly keep it for mindgames and such and use it sparingly (applies against all characters actually =D)
- ICE CLIMBERS
Chaingrabbing Discussion from page 6 to 8
* First advice, don't get grabbed - counterpick stages with platforms or bumps in the terrain to prevent chaingrabs from connecting properly. Remember that Ice Climbers are opportunists, they will seek every possible lag in Zelda's moves for a chance to grab her.
* Zelda is incredibly resistant to grabs. Nayru's, DSmash and FSmash give her the tools to keep the ICs at a distance.
Dins is great in this matchup. Nana is easy to hit and their recovery can be hampered a lot by Dins. When they get seperated, you can easily hit Nana if she's too far away from you. Only use at extreme long distances though because you never want to even risk one chance of a grab. Also in this matchup if your ever forced into close combat do not use usmash as an OoS option, be in the habit of spotdodging to dsmash as a quick, reliable get off me move.
They're really easy with Zelda. Space well with fsmashes, ftilts, and Dins and you shouldn't have much to worry about.
* Separate them. They cannot chaingrab effectively if they are separated. When the ICs have taken damage, high knockback moves may easily separate them, with enough time for Zelda to dish punishment and possibly KO Nana, giving Popo a serious loss.
Also, kill Nana. I always aim for Nana first, but sometimes I end up doing more damage to Popo than Nana anyway. As soon as I've caused significant damage to one over the other, I hit them with a high knockback attack which will send one farther away than the other and then I'll focus on Nana. Keep in mind she takes the fastest possible route toward Popo which makes her very easy to predict.
* Here's Zelda from the ICs' perspective:
Hmm, being an IC main who once mained and still uses Zelda someone often i can say the obvious moves are her best moves. Smash smash smash! IF you don't want to deteriorate these moves though, which is understandable, use her priority moves such as Dtilt (its almost instant and stops the IC's before they are in grabbing range i believe). Also, short hop nair is good because it lasts until she lands giving it many chances to connect and possibly split the IC's. Short hope Nayru's Love works well too against IC's and many other opponents.
I'd say an IC user who can't get through your smashes to grab you would use Squall hammer or SH Blizzard to damage you, because SHBLz. does alot of damage if timed right and you aren't reflecting it, and Squall Hammer has a few super armor frames making it possible to break through Zelda's higher priority moves as well. But these don't lead to grabs usually, just a substitute for actually getting the grab.
* The ICs will use various tactics to get close to Zelda in a bid to grab her. Desynching is primarily their most effective means of approach. Use din's with care to disrupt desynched approaches.
- PIKACHU
Quick Attack Cancel Discussion on page 8
Video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6boOKl674kI (stolen from the peach boards naturally ;O ) Watch from 1:09 onwards and you'll the see the QAC done effectively.
* Zelda's smashes have long durations regarding their hitboxes, and thus are key to disrupting the QAC effectively. These plus Nayru's should be her primary tactic when dealing with this method of rapid movemet.
QaC does have slight priority but most medium to strong moves can knock or cancel pikachu out of QaC. The hard part is timing: mostly long-duration moves, if done before the quick attack is initiated, can consistently knock pikachu out of it. However, with QaC a pikachu main could just QaC in place infinitely, triangle OVER the attack, zig zag through the end and windup of the attack, or QaC away 1 unit and QaC back 2+units. Not to mention that a pikachu could use all of these options in one go.
Breakdown: Zelda's u-smash should protect her most of the time along with nayru's love.
1. u-smash: although not the best horizontally, if it cannot hit pika during QaC then pika's QaC can't hurt zelda either. However, since the QaC has so much variability, you could be punished at the end of the attack.
2. "" Love: Longer lag than u-smash, but will counter an out-of-QaC thunderjolts that could be thrown at u-smash. Could be punished by out-of-QaC aerial such as d-air.
That's as far as moves go. What about out of shield options? Well.... with QaC, pikachu slides through most shields in up to 8 or more length increments. If you have an eye for pikachu's exit in the middle of chaos, then by all means f-air/b-air twinkle-toe the electric rat when he's near, but the maximum length of QaC is about 2/3's the length of FD.
Due to the hitbox duration of Zelda's f-smash, I'd think twice before QAC'ing around into Zelda.
I would do so sparingly, to catch the Zelda off-guard.
Lobbing a t-jolt at Zelda and then using it for cover as I QAC through Zelda would be safer, but still not safe enough in my mind.
Yeah, what the others said. Zelda is one of only a small handful of characters that I'll make a point in using QAC against sparingly.
However, be wary of the QAC to Thunder. This I'll do against any character. Be ready for it and remember your neutral B can reflect it.
I have to agree with legendary. zelda is one of those characters i am VERY leery about qacing through. your usmash is like this wall of NO QAC B****. same with most of your moves. not saying i wont use it but i will avoid you. at the very worst if someone tried dto do what anther did too poor panda tap b lol.
* Nair and Nayru's have long durations that allow Zelda to safely disrupt the QAC.
I just played a Pikachu who used a lot of QACs and Nair and Naryu's proved to be very useful. Nair was especially useful in stopping QACs in the air and I usually felt safe spacing myself with nairs because it doesn't have nearly as much lag as upsmash and Naryu's.
- MR GAME AND WATCH
The Turtle Discussion from page 8 to 10
RECENT TESTING BY HALF-SPLIT ^^
Tested, and I must say that Zelda´s range really keeps surprising me over and over again. Her F-tilt was almost identical in range to G&W´s Bair. It even barely outranged it when the turtle was in its shorter position. On its longest position it outranged Zelda though.
If G&W was coming from above Zelda´s up-angled F-tilt hit him way earlier than his turtle hit her, although the timing was hard when G&W was fastfalling. If he wasn´t it was actually pretty easy to beat his Bair.
If G&W came from the same height as Zelda (the usual situation) F-tilt didn´t work though. His continuous hitboxes prevented F-tilt´s hitbox from coming out before Zelda was hit. Since lots of F-tilt´s range comes from the step Zelda takes while executing the move, it won´t help the situation.
And since I started examining G&W´s Bair, I decided to test if I could find any way to punish it. What I came up was pretty reliable solution for shieldpoking. It´s very simple: if G&W Baired Zelda´s shield, she could spotdodge straight out of it without getting hit. So if she shielded the beginning of the attack and spotdodged when G&W was closer to ground, she avoided being hit completely and could even occasionally punish with guaranteed smash before G&W got out of the lag.
* The turtle is a pain. There is no sure fire way for Zelda to counter this move. However, it is possible to SDI from this move to accumulate less damage.
SDI up and behind GnW and bair in between each hit.
* Get used to the fact that the turtle has an insanely long duration. Don't put your shield down at all and simply roll away if you can. Just don't try and punish directly. Focus on defending each hit and looking for an opportunity to attack.
GW's turtle lasts for 39 frames, so it's a committed approach. The move is still active even upon hitting the ground so don't drop your shield too early.
Also note that GW can DI back and stop his inertia when RARing with Bair. If you get caught in the turtle, SDI up and away and try to use an aerial to punish GW.
* Din's can possibly hurt the back of GW when he's approaching from long distances.
I'm pretty sure Din's Fire busts through the turtle from far away.
She just doesn't have a legitimate answer to stopping GW's turtle other than Din's Fire from far away. Once GW gets into his intermediate spacing range the turtle becomes really, really good.
* As there is a high chance you'll get caught in this attack, Zelda must minimise the amount of damage dealt to her as quickly as possible with the potential of ending up behind him, where he is vulnerable. You can attempt this via rolling or with SDI as stated above if you are hit. Even simple things can work!, such as:
Sometimes Rolling behind & hyphen u-smashes work.
;-;
* RISKY: FW. It's a controversial move, but Zelda can use it if she predicts GW well (for once it hasn't been suggested by me XD )
If I can predict when it's coming, I Farore's to the point where G&W was at before he started a SH-bair. The cool thing about this is that Zelda is tall enough so that I don't think there is any point where a character can SH and avoid the Farore's hitbox at any point in time.
By warping into that place, at worst for you, you could screw up and get bitten. At best, you'll hit him with the reappearance hitbox, and free hits on G&W are more than welcome. The main thing is to not take damage. As someone said, G&W's bair lasts for nearly 40 frames, which is enough time to warp and hit him. It probably seems stupid on paper, but honestly, there isn't much else that can be done (besides properly spaced Din's and maybe Nayru's... maybe).
. . . I suppose the game you do still have is Nayru's and Farore's. I have no idea what you would do with them, but they're all you have that isn't trumped.
Hmm. . . also your Dsmash is good quick, his is slightly slower.
It is possible to shield the turtle and then immediately spotdodge after. Zelda may have an opportunity to punish.
An upwards-angled Ftilt is semi-reliable and effective. Practise practise practise with this move!!! Get the timing right. On occassions it has been tested and found to reliably beat his bair. However if in doubt, shield.
This is a tough move, so minimise risk and damage. SDI up and away if you are caught. Roll away fast or shield if he's coming head on. Din's from afar if he's approaching from such a distance.
How to deal with G&W's B-air:
- Space a Smash REALLY well.
- SDI up and jump away from him or N-air if you're close enough.
- If he spaces it REALLY badly, you can D-smash him out of shield if you don't get poked.
That's really it.
- LUCARIO
Dair Discussion from page 10 to 12
* First and foremost, Lucario's dair hits twice, extends far beyond his toes, and he can attack many times in one jump. Here's some useful information:
(Lucarios propably know this already): He can do 2 Dairs in shorthop, 3 in full jump and 5 in douplejump. His Dair also isn´t strong enough (knockback-wise) to usually kill alone if DIed.
* Lucario players use Dair depending on Zelda's situation. He also uses Dair consistently from Fair, as part of a combo string.
But there's two kinds of Dair's.
Under 100% and Over 100%
Both are dangerous, Over 100% can kill.
And Dair is normally used as a Chain ENDER.
-t2
Anyways, when I use Dair, most often it's in a Fair>Dair string, which works very well for damage racking at lower percents. At higher percents I switch to Fair>Nair. How to avoid.... don't get Fair'd? You might be able to out prioritize it with your Usmash if you time it right, but I'm not really sure. I've fought my share of Zelda's and I think it's happened.
Jump>immediate Dair can also be use out of shield, so watch out for that.
Mmk, here's a little more for you guys.
A good lucario should never just flat out use Dair. Unless he's OoS'ing it (which is just jump and down-c stick), or having a techno party in the air, Dair will never be alone.
Like I said, it ends chains. Normally you'll see something like Fair>Dair. Thats the typical use of it. Boring right? I know. What you wouldn't expect is F-throw>Dair (when Zelda lands).
Dair stop's lucario's momentum but it can also Edge Hog. If Zelda is hanging there, all a lucario has to do just jump right above her (or just run off) and Dair. Aka, Zelda players, dont hang on ledges thinking your safe, cause your not.
Depending on how strong your shield is, and where Cario is placed, His Dair will weaken your shield and could skim the top of Zelda's head doing damage. This happens to most Tall characters in brawl.
Now, one thing I've tested for and seen a few times with Lucario, is his Dair will hit someone way below him. Back at the lucario boards, we have NOT found an answer to this "Event", but many have noticed the "Extended Dair Hitbox".
Enjoy.
-t2
* Now for some solutions: if Zelda is caught in a flurry of dairs, angle her shield upwards. She will not get shield stabbed.
Any smart Zelda will have her shield pointed up because Luc can't really shield stab you from under and it makes up smash oos a little faster.
* Zelda has excellent OoS options against his Dair. There's the solid USmash that she can use, but this isn't necessarily the best option. What you want to use is Utilt. When he gets in close, it actually outranges him. Utilt has a very surprising range if it connects.
I did some testing about Lucario´s dair vs Zelda and was worried that I couldn´t post the results anywhere... but now I can!
Zelda´s U-tilt can outrange Lucario´s Dair, but it takes very good timing. Her U-smash on the other hand can´t do that.
* Sometimes it's best to just roll or run away and then punish. How you punish is up to you:
Just get out from under lucario and kick his aerial stalling dairing *** for abusing that move.
Remember, this move hits twice and can be done many times in short hop. Angle your shield upwards and punish OoS. Punish with Utilt instead of USmash, but the latter still works.
Alternatively, roll away and punish.
As a player, get a grip on the situation - if Zelda's below 100%, Lucario's will use Fair to Dair, or Fthrow to Dair as part of a combo. If she's above 100%, it becomes a killing move.
- SNAKE
- Grenade Camping Discussion from page 12 to 14
* Zelda has to understand the psychology behind Snake's camping. He's looking for her to approach a cooked grenade. Her best option is to get in the air and attempt to din's and close in slowly. Be on the lookout for all hazards.
- When grenading a character, what is the reaction you expect or want?
We want them to try and approach for a cooked grenade, or stay on the ground to get hit by the one we threw. Your best option is to get to the air and try to hit us or our grenade with Din's Fire. Nayru's Love is another decent option to beat our grenade camping but won't always work.
exploding cooked nades with a well-aimed Din's glide gives you a chance to get in a move/grab due to the shieldstun he takes from Din's and the grenade.
* Never attempt to catch grenades with her jab. It may bounce off and her jab will only make it explode at her.
Remember, if a grenade hits you and doesn't explode, it'll bounce off you very slightly. Don't spam jab where you were standing as you won't pick it up if this happens and you may get a face full of explosions D:
* Nayru's love may be an option. But use it sparingly and time it well. Also, shield and spotdodge is key to messing up his flow. Spotdodge the first grenade to make it fly off stage, and then shield the second. Close in slowly from there, and work on spacing to approach Snake.
- use nayru's on noncooked grenades.
As far as thrown grenades go, I would suggest nayru's love, unless you notice a snake cooking a grenade at which point you should just air dodge or shield.
I fought a couple of people who didn't block grenades but just spotdodged it so it would fly offscreen, and then when I stop grenades in mid-air, they'd move out of the way and spot dodge my second grenade, Nikita is too slow, and mortar is ranged, so I would be forced to close in
* Some great info: Sheik can outcamp Snake. It may be a useful idea to use the duo in this matchup and finish Snake off with fresh kill moves from transforming to Zelda.
-Turn to sheik. Needles > Nades 9 times out of 10
* What happens if Zelda disrupts Snake's camping easily?
- What do you do if the camping goes wrong?
Snake-dash away and camp more
If I'm facing a character I can't outcamp, I try to close in using shield dashing and mortar sliding. I continue to use grenades, but they're usually shield dropped or used to counter your attacks. In this situation, I tend to rely more on Ftilt, nair, and AAA combo than usual.
- Ftilt Discussion from page 12 to 14
* This move hits on frame 4. Take note of that! It's incredibly fast, has great range and also priority. However, Zelda has a key move here - FSmash.
Zelda will have to get close to hit us, which is something shes lacking a bit.
But, your Fsmash > our ftilt 
our utilt outranges all but you're Fsmash I believe.
for snake's ftilt...
-just get better positioning and Ftilt/Fsmash
* Zelda has many shield options. For safety, shield and roll away from Snake to reset your spacing if you know his Ftilt will hit. Don't try to punish. If you're more daring, you can utilise OoS options:
-Sheild and then OoS grab, Usmash or even bair/fair works great if he completes the 2 hit combo consistently.
- Avoiding is always a nice option.
* As an instinctive reaction, if you are sure Snake will get you with Ftilt, DSmash quickly to cause clanking and then roll away and reset spacing.
for snake's ftilt...
-Dsmash him to clank with it... or beat him out if you input first
His Ftilt will be used interchangably with his jab. Spamming Din's fire would hold snake back anyway, but if he closes in, try to spot dodge and perform a quick move.
Also, Ftilt is good area control to set up C4, avoiding it is basically keeping snake at a mid to long range, and quickly dodging the moment he closes in, but never dodge towards snake unless he already starts Ftilt as it's a pretty easy move to use on roll spammers.
TAKE NOTE: Ftilt hits on frame 4. That's faster than the majority of Zelda's moveset. Utilt also outranges all her moves except FSmash. It can be argued that her FSmash, when properly spaced, can beat out his entire moveset, so begin spacing and using this move a lot more.
- FALCO -
Dthrow and follow ups Discussion from page 14 to 15
* Firstly, don't get caught. Zelda outranges him, so use her ground game to separate yourself from him should he decide to try and grab you. His grab has a lot of ending lag if it misses, so spotdodge > punish is very viable here.
* He has many combos that lead from his Dthrow. There will be some scenarios where there's nothing you can do but take the pain. But always attempt nayru's or a lightning kick immediately to catch him off guard if he's not frame perfect.
Falco's Dthrow, well, there's not much you can really do (since it's a throw which means he's already grabbed you). DI, tech roll if you eat Dair, Naryu's if their timing is bad, and of course the most obvious is try not to get grabbed in the first place.
I've kicked a Falco while he was trying to follow up a Dthrow before.
We can lightning kick him out of Dthrow... serioiusly. it's sexy and makes him stop trying to chinthrow us.
Lasers Discussion from page 14 to 15
* The primary use of Falco's lasers is that they force you into your shield whilst he rushes in, normally with a grab or combo. Don't be forced into your shield. Powershield, or full hop airdodge into the ground to get closer to him. Take it slow. Also, spotdoging lasers is can be very effective.
As far as the Dthrow is concerned, Zelda has less to worry about than most. She's very floaty so it's difficult for Falco to chain her. The regular Dthrow chain doesn't work at all, so he only has a few options. First, he can do Dthrow -> FFdair -> Dthrow -> FFdair. It's fairly easy to DI away and then roll to get out of this, though. A better option for Falco is to not even try to chain, but use Dthrows to lead into a DACUS. Unfortunately, getting grabbed at 0% will lead into this almost certainly, but you shouldn't be getting grabbed at zero. Zelda can outspace Falco while grounded, and generally wins out in the air. Don't let yourself get grabbed until you've taken at least 20 damage, because you'll be able to DI out of anything Falco can follow up with, save lasers or a phantasm, which does very little damage anyway.
As far as the lasers go, I try to go on the offense with a full hop air dodge with Dtilt ready as soon as I hit the ground or spotdodge and use either Fsmash or Ftilt to keep him out of range. If all else fails, powersheilding is awesome!
I generally just Full-hop airdodge and try to predict if he's going to IAP or not. If your up against a serious camp based Falco......you really just have to stick with powershielding and every now and again throw out Naryus. Ban FD and pray he doesn't take you to Japes or Halberd. As long as your not on those stages, his lasers aren't to big of a problem. I also try to spotdodge them as often as possible because the whole reason behind them is to force you into your shield.
* Falco's lasers have very low hitstun, and don't do much damage. You can almost catch him out of a laser approach with frame 4 DSmash or perhaps your Dtilt.
Lasers also cause very little hitstun. Something Falcos like to do is approach with short hopped lasers and try to upsmash you as soon as they're in range. A down smash is a good punishment for this when he thinks he's got you caught off guard by a laser hit.
-TOON LINK-
Projectile Spam Discussion from page 15 to #
??
I'm not fussed - yours is easier to read than mine. Besides, whats the point in hogging something when someone else can use to help other things?
