How To Deal With Specific Enemy Moves #11----TOON LINK + SPAM

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

All of Marth's attacks are fast sword slashes that are disjointed. He has no lingering hitboxes.

God help us all if he did

 

[Kataefi]

Kataefi: You seem to be confused. All a disjointed hitbox means is a hitbox that isn't attached to a character's hurtbox. Attacks with weapons are the most common example of this.

Whether it's single hit or not doesn't matter in regards to a disjointed hitbox. I think what you meant to say was lingering hitbox, which is a hitbox that stays out for a longer duration then the animation frames of the attack or stays out for noticeable amount of time.

All of Marth's attacks are fast sword slashes that are disjointed. He has no lingering hitboxes.

Ah this makes sense to me now!
I'm quite new to all this smash lingo!

And Zelda has disjointed AND lingering hitboxes, right?

;D

 

[Pr0phetic]

The only way your punishing Marth's Fair is if its badly spaced. If so you have a few options:

a) Roll under and punish from behind on landing.
b) Move under and hyphen smash.
c) If its a longer distance, Din's Fire might applicable (not sure on this one.)

 

[Villi]

Here is a thread you all might find useful: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202204

Zelda's up b isn't listed, unfortunately, but note the speed of Samus' fsmash, dsmash, and up smash. It might interest you to set your c-stick to special, set Zelda next to Samus, and compare the speed of Zelda's Up B with Samus' smashes. Compare FW with Zelda's up tilt, and you'll see the effect of a lingering hit-box. Compare FW to NL (which has invincibility from frame 4-12 and attacks on 13) and you'll see FW's hitbox duration isn't as sexy as it seems.

 

[Villi]

Double post: Fairing Marth between his fairs works as does running up smash, nair, dash attack, and Din's. Just wait til you see the first fair coming and go for it.

SCENE:

MARTH: Fair, fair, fsmash.

DUMB BLONDE ZELDA: (I think I'll just wait for him to finish before doing anything)

MARTH: Fair, fair, fsmash.

DBZ: (HERE I COME!)

MARTH: Fair, fair.

DBZ: OW!

MARTH: Fair, fair.

DBZ: OMG, I don't even...

MARTH: Fair, double jump dair.

DBZ: AAOOWW!

 

[Pierce7d]

Shield and ftilt. Your ftilt is stupidly good. Also, camp Marth, and make him approach, then Fair OOS might work if you're amazing. FW is BAD. Retreating Din's is okay. Dash attack in between (frame 5, right?) might work.

 

[Kaffei]

Run in the same direction that Marth is approaching, while bairing. I found that useful, because the Marth is cautious that he might get sweetspotted.
But it's not a guaranteed defensive maneuver. You gotta space yerself really well.. T-T
SPACE YOURSELF ACCORDINGLY & DO NOT GET TOO CLOSE.

If Marth runs away after, lure with Din's.

@_@

 

[-Mars-]

God help us all if he did

f***, dancing blade is close enough.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

...DBZ...

What does that remind me of?

If Marth gets too close (far closer that he would need to) Nair can stop him between Fairs. It's not as strong as, say, U-smash, but it opens chances for some continuations, so it can be useful in low percents.

 

[Kataefi]

DRAGON BALL ZEEEEEEEEEEEE
(don't ask >.>)

I've come to realise Fair is TRICKY. It's basically a fool-proof means of approaching. Nair sounds quite good. Ftilt out of shield is also handy. I suppose Zelda will just have to play ultra defensively and rely on OoS options maybe?

Shall we move onto another move? And if yes, which one? We can always go round and come back to more of Marth's moves later.

Let me know!

 

[Kataefi]

So I'm guessing Marth's fair has been reasonably discussed?
Thanks to the Marth mains for contributing!

Okay the next move is the infamous grab from the ice climbers :O One grab could mean one stock ... or could it? Post here how you deal with not getting grabbed.

I personally try and take this fight to the air. I feel as if Zelda's air game is good here, I can nair a lot, which practically beats out anything they have aerially, and I can also catch nana in LKs and Uairs a lot more than other characters. In this way I jump a lot, but when they get close, I spot dodge consecutively to DSmash or Nayru's depending on which one I've overused and which one they might least expect.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well this is a silly move to put in here. you can't really get out of it. you have two strategies: keep IC's out of grab range (not too difficult with all of zelda's range and Dsmash/Nayru's)
or kill nana (also not too difficult.)

 

[Kataefi]

well this is a silly move to put in here. you can't really get out of it. you have two strategies: keep IC's out of grab range (not too difficult with all of zelda's range and Dsmash/Nayru's)
or kill nana (also not too difficult.)

Cool okay... this move should be over quickly then.
I've invited the ice climber mains to have there say too so we'll wait a tiny bit and draw up a summary, and move on.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well, Nana is like a lvl. 1 computer player. so you separate them, you can nail her with lightning kicks and popo can do nothing.

no nana = no chain grab. :D

as for keeping them away, it's pretty self explanitory. You force them to approach, just never dash atack and don't get it sheilded if ya do.

 

[Villi]

Here's a useful post.

-----Press A, B, L, R, X, Y, or Z - 6 frames is reduced from the time you'd be held in a grab.

-----Press The Analog stick in 1 of the 4 cardinal directions(angles don't count) - 6 frames is reduced from the time you're held in a grab (24 frames is reduced after 1 complete rotation of the analog stick, so 2 and 1/2 rotations reduces the time by 1 second).

---------------0% - 76 (1.2666 sec)
5% - 84
10% - 92
15% - 100
20% - 108
25% - 116
30% - 124
35% - 132
40% - 140
45% - 148
---------------50% - 156 (2.6 sec)
55% - 164
60% - 172
65% - 180
70% - 188
75% - 196
80% - 204
85% - 212
90% - 220
95% - 228
---------------100% - 236 (3.9333 sec)
105% - 244
110% - 252
115% - 260
120% - 268
125% - 276
130% - 284
135% - 292
140% - 300
145% - 308
---------------150% - 316 (5.2666 sec)
155% - 324
160% - 332
165% - 340
170% - 348
175% - 356
180% - 364
185% - 372
190% - 380
195% - 388
---------------200% - 396 (6.6 sec)
205% - 404
210% - 412
215% - 420
220% - 428
225% - 436
230% - 444
235% - 452
240% - 460
245% - 468
---------------250% - 476 (7.9333 sec)
255% - 484
260% - 492
265% - 500
270% - 508
275% - 516
280% - 524
285% - 532
290% - 540
295% - 548
---------------300% - 556 (9.2666 sec)
305% - 564
310% - 572
315% - 580
320% - 588
325% - 596
330% - 604
335% - 612
340% - 620
345% - 628
---------------350% - 636 (10.6 sec)
355% - 644
360% - 652
365% - 660
370% - 668
375% - 676
380% - 684
385% - 692
390% - 700
395% - 708
---------------400% - 716 (11.9333 sec)

---------------999% - 1674 (27.9 sec)

---adds 1 second every 37.5% (without trying to escape it)

---doubles original time stuck in move (76 frames) at 47.5% (without trying to escape it)

---from 0% to 999%, there's approximately a 22.026316 times increase in the amount of times longer Disable lasts (without trying to escape it)

. . .

Just mash buttons in a deliberate and efficient fashion. If you're savvy, you can figure out by your percentage how long you'll be button mashing before you will break free. It will give IC's MUCH less time to think when they grab you.

Edit: Also, kill Nana. I always aim for Nana first, but sometimes I end up doing more damage to Popo than Nana anyway. As soon as I've caused significant damage to one over the other, I hit them with a high knockback attack which will send one farther away than the other and then I'll focus on Nana. Keep in mind she takes the fastest possible route toward Popo which makes her very easy to predict.

 

[JustNoOne]

Mehhhhh..... I just played some Zelda's in my school tourney so here are some things on my mind when I face Zelda.

Fsmash: It's takes so frigging long for her hand to come back to her, it's just really annoying when my opponent uses Fsmash twice, it's just really hard to try and grab her. I would just wait for it and use blizzard instead, I just hate it so much, I don't even go for the grab when Zelda does this, I'm too impatient .-

B: It's just splits us up, it's really hard to get Nana back if she's sent to the other side by the Naryu Love. If I see it coming, I'd just wait outside and than run in for the grab, not hard as getting a grab when Zelda uses her Fsmash

Just those two really makes it hard to get in and go for a CG. My two cents.

 

[momochuu]

You're all gonna think I'm being a b**** but...just don't get grabbed. o_o

Spam Din's and FSmash/DSmash. ICs have almost no range that matches her smashes.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm interested to know what tactics they'll use to get into Zelda's territory. Or will they ditch the chain-grabbing technique and opt for something less savvy?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Do the IC's even have a threatening game without their CG?

even though you don't see ICs getting CGs left and right, it's still a core part of their gameplay because it FORCES their oponent to fight at a range that the ICs can't safely grab from. The problem is, this is where Zelda would be fighting anyway and she has methods at her disposal for keeping the ICs there as well as shaking them off if the get to close.

Zelda really is one of the most resistant charcters to the IC's chain grab. that's before you consider how much trouble she can give them by mobbing and Nana murdering.

 

[momochuu]

Do the IC's even have a threatening game without their CG?

Desynching is too good.

 

[Kataefi]

I don't know, I don't main them.

It would be cool to get the perspective of the match from an IC main. I understand we've listed Zelda's amazing 'get off me' strategy, and her excellent range and spacing options, but we havn't talked about any moves that could throw Zelda off course from the ice climbers themselves. If Zelda's forcing them to approach, how are they going to approach? They need one to initiate their grab game, and understanding their approaches is key to avoiding their chaingrabs (which would go well in the OP).

I've fought very few ICs, but I remember a very good one who was desynching blizzards (which has range) and ice blocks, which I thought was quite an interesting approach...

 

[-Mars-]

Dins is great in this matchup. Nana is easy to hit and their recovery can be hampered a lot by Dins. When they get seperated, you can easily hit Nana if she's too far away from you. Only use at extreme long distances though because you never want to even risk one chance of a grab. Also in this matchup if your ever forced into close combat do not use usmash as an OoS option, be in the habit of spotdodging to dsmash as a quick, reliable get off me move.

They're really easy with Zelda. Space well with fsmashes, ftilts, and Dins and you shouldn't have much to worry about.

 

[Teh Future]

Don't use any moves than have significant ending lag basically. No dins fire in the air, ect. Generally the only time IC will get a grab is if you make a stupid mistake, because you literally have to be right next to them to grab the guy. The main problem is, once your grabbed, you're getting sent straight to the edge and spiked, so the whole grab = death thing actually applies to you, there is much less room for error since your vertical recovery sucks.

 

[Barge]

Space well, good zeldas are incredibly hard to grab, don't use laggy moves unless you'll know they'll hit.
Your Standard B move is good if you're fighting a grab happy IC.

 

[Villi]

Naryu's Love will get you shield grabbed. Things IC have going for them against Zelda are desynced squall hammers, ice blocks, and their over b gives them range. If they're not spending the entire match just trying to grab you, I think they can still apply some pressure at a distance with their b moves and occasionally catch you with squall hammer. Don't let them catch you off guard. Din's is great here, but make sure you don't use it so close or have it out so long that they can just run in and grab you if they predict it.

 

[Bandit]

I think stage choice is important here too. You need a stage with several platforms to stay moving around so IC can't get to you. As long as you can keep your spacing, the grab is very avoidable.

I ran into an IC on FD. It was not a good time. Like it has been said, they have other weapons at a distance that can keep pressure on you, but FD allows them to use these since it has only one plane to play on.

 

[Kataefi]

The next move is pikachu's QAC. Here's a video for those that havn't read the updated OP:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6boOKl674kI

I've never encountered this done effectively from a pikachu before. My instincts tell me Nayru's? Or OoS options if possible?

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Dear Zelda's:

Hiyas! I'm a pika main (although i can't vouch if I am definitely any good at all compared to the others).

I got a desperate request from a Zelda main from the pika threads and decided to help contribute to the zelda's.

As for the quick attack cancel, (if one wants to counter it) try seeing it more as a very toned down version of wavedash. More than an actual "1 move" it's more of like a "way of movement" (plus hitstun) that can be applied in a LARGE variety of ways.

QaC does have slight priority but most medium to strong moves can knock or cancel pikachu out of QaC. The hard part is timing: mostly long-duration moves, if done before the quick attack is initiated, can consistently knock pikachu out of it. However, with QaC a pikachu main could just QaC in place infinitely, triangle OVER the attack, zig zag through the end and windup of the attack, or QaC away 1 unit and QaC back 2+units. Not to mention that a pikachu could use all of these options in one go.

Breakdown: Zelda's u-smash should protect her most of the time along with nayru's love.
1. u-smash: although not the best horizontally, if it cannot hit pika during QaC then pika's QaC can't hurt zelda either. However, since the QaC has so much variability, you could be punished at the end of the attack.

2. "" Love: Longer lag than u-smash, but will counter an out-of-QaC thunderjolts that could be thrown at u-smash. Could be punished by out-of-QaC aerial such as d-air.

That's as far as moves go. What about out of shield options? Well.... with QaC, pikachu slides through most shields in up to 8 or more length increments. If you have an eye for pikachu's exit in the middle of chaos, then by all means f-air/b-air twinkle-toe the electric rat when he's near, but the maximum length of QaC is about 2/3's the length of FD.

Best option is to get near the edge of the stage (that's what i would do against a pika QaC'ing better than me). That limit's the pika's options: 1) in front of you, 2) below you and jump/rising aerial, 3) sweetspot the edge, or 4) passthe edge, no-sweetspot, and suicide. Regardless of what option, if the pikachu does any of the previous, OoS will work and so will the 2 counter attacks (at least they'll work BETTER than in the middle of stage).

Hope that helps. And remember.... pikachu has other nasty options for those near the edge of the stage...

Hehe.

Good luck and happy brawling.

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, a fledgeling smashboards'er

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I have to agree with legendary. zelda is one of those characters i am VERY leery about qacing through. your usmash is like this wall of NO QAC B****. same with most of your moves. not saying i wont use it but i will avoid you. at the very worst if someone tried dto do what anther did too poor panda tap b lol.

 

[M15t3R E]

Due to the hitbox duration of Zelda's f-smash, I'd think twice before QAC'ing around into Zelda.
I would do so sparingly, to catch the Zelda off-guard.
Lobbing a t-jolt at Zelda and then using it for cover as I QAC through Zelda would be safer, but still not safe enough in my mind.

Yeah, what the others said. Zelda is one of only a small handful of characters that I'll make a point in using QAC against sparingly.
However, be wary of the QAC to Thunder. This I'll do against any character. Be ready for it and remember your neutral B can reflect it.

 

[K 2]

Most pikachu's I've seen don't continually use QAC during the match. I personally like to save it for surprise QAC -> Thunder or QAC -> nair, both of which have decent knockback. If pikachu uses QAC too much against any opponent, they will learn how to defeat it or avoid it.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow you guys have been very helpful. I thought that Zelda wouldn't have too much trouble dealing with it, but I didn't know about QAC into Thunder.

 

[Muhznit]

Pikachu main here with Zelda as a secondary. =D

QAC on Zelda is definitely something I'd be wary of. QACing through her head makes me vulnerable to USmash, QACing downward makes me vulnerable to F-Smash and D-Smash. Then there's Nayru's of course....

A thing to keep in mind about Pikachus that are high up is that they can use thundershock, DI foward a bit, then Double-Input a QAC to get in front of it, thus somewhat protecting them from Zelda's non-Nayru's Love counters. Bare in mind that they can also stop behind it, or just avoid the QAC entirely and shield the reflected thundershock.

In front of newbish Pikachus as Zelda, I tend to full hop away and launch a Din's Fire downward to keep them at bay when they try QACing. I hope this helps.

 

[Kataefi]

Pikachu mainers have honestly outdone themselves. Thanks!

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If you have some time before the GAC hits you (meaning you predicted it) U-tilt works. It´ll hit around you, protecting from wide area, and send pika away.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Usmash completely counters QAC from everything I've ever experienced/seen. And it seems the pikachu mains agree. This is a move zelda shouldn't have to worry about much. even the threat of the easy Usmash is enough to leave pika mains leery.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Usmash with Zelda will dispel QAC.

Also, I find that letting the Pikachu player do some QAC attacks is alright as well, because most of the time, they screw-up sooner or later, and that becomes easily punishable.

 

[Kataefi]

If anyone has a problem with a certain enemy move let me know and we'll go through it!

Time to discuss Mr Game and Watch and his annoying bair.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow this move is broken as s***. Rolling behind sometimes works. You can shield grab it if they don't space well and you want to let it eat your shield for the whole duration. Do not spotdodge, either shield or roll out of the way. I haven't played him in a while as Zelda becuase I always go Sheik, but iirc usmash and fsmash can't help you out here.

 

[Villi]

I don't know. ;_; Don't let him do it right.