How Can Anyone Believe in God?

[lonejedi]

you keep talking about how "its all the same when we die" and how atheists should therefore shut up.

uhh hello? atheists are ALIVE HERE AND NOW, and we have to deal with the stupid behavior caused by your silly beliefs.

What stupid behavior? It's really simple, if you're not interested if someone comes up to you to talk about God, all you have to do is give them a simple no. It's not like you're going ot the supermarket and when you walk into the doors, there are banners everywhere that say BECOME A CHRISTIAN OR ELSE. You can say you're persecuted about being an athiest, which you have done in past threads, but what you have to endure is nothing compared tow hat christians around the world go through. You act as if Christians are out to get you, when Christians are being killed in other countries for having a belief.

How you have so much hate for a group of people is beyond me. How many things do you do that people don't like, but people deal with it.

 

[AltF4]

Jedi:

Outside of this Debate Hall, I hardly ever talk about religion at all. If you were to ask the majority of my friends what my religious beliefs are, they probably wouldn't know. It may only seem like I'm this hardcore because this is the Debate Hall, after all! What else am I supposed to do here?

 

[SSBbo]

lonejedi is pretty cool. he finally got across something that i fail to.

also, jack, i hate intolerant religious people as well, they make a mockery of what i believe by making people think that, just because we share the same religion, we're all bigots.

 

[snex]

What stupid behavior? It's really simple, if you're not interested if someone comes up to you to talk about God, all you have to do is give them a simple no. It's not like you're going ot the supermarket and when you walk into the doors, there are banners everywhere that say BECOME A CHRISTIAN OR ELSE. You can say you're persecuted about being an athiest, which you have done in past threads, but what you have to endure is nothing compared tow hat christians around the world go through. You act as if Christians are out to get you, when Christians are being killed in other countries for having a belief.

How you have so much hate for a group of people is beyond me. How many things do you do that people don't like, but people deal with it.

what stupid behavior??? how about the PRESIDENT OF THE FRACKIN UNITED STATES denying stem cell research funding, FOR STARTERS?

 

[Jack Kieser]

lonejedi is pretty cool. he finally got across something that i fail to.

also, jack, i hate intolerant religious people as well, they make a mockery of what i believe by making people think that, just because we share the same religion, we're all bigots.

Don't get me wrong; I don't fall into the pitfall of assuming every religious person is A, B, and C. I try to give everyone a fair chance to prove themselves before I judge their personality. As far as I'm concerned, though, it's a matter of math: religion brings the world more pain and suffering than it does good stuff, so I don't think it's beneficial to have around. I'm not going to actively force anyone to stop believing in anything, because everyone has the right to do as they wish (until they infringe on other's rights, at least), but my personal utopia would be without religion; it really isn't necessary.

 

[lonejedi]

what stupid behavior??? how about the PRESIDENT OF THE FRACKIN UNITED STATES denying stem cell research funding, FOR STARTERS?

If you're going to go down a completely different path in this thread that is fine, but don't just assume that because someone is against stem cell reseach, that that person is a Christian. I understand that Pres Bush is a Christian, but there are thousands to millions of Non-Christians who are against Abortion/Stem Cell Reserach. I'm not going to go any farther down this road.

But back on track. How many things have Christians in this country had taken away from them because a small group like you, whined and whined and whined. We can't pray in Schools, we can't get ANY funding by the government in private schools, not all of which are Christian, because athiests are too afraid the schools will use this to brainwash the kids into actually believing in a religon. When these same exact schools are recording higher SAT and ACT scores than those of public. You want to get rid of anything that has to do with God, you want to throw out any word of God ever. How can such a small word offend you. Why does it bother you so much.

But when Christians ask for a little piece of something, as soon as it happens, people like YOU snex, whine and whine and whine. If you can't put up with a simple word that says God, then why do you expect Christians to put up with you.

EDIT:I'm off to work, so If I don't respond, it's not because I'm wussing out.

 

[Deleted member]

I assume this is an honest mistake.

Was it foolish of me to say so? If it was stupid then so be it. I'm trying to see both sides - I don't actually believe Adam and Eve were monkeys.

 

[snex]

If you're going to go down a completely different path in this thread that is fine, but don't just assume that because someone is against stem cell reseach, that that person is a Christian. I understand that Pres Bush is a Christian, but there are thousands to millions of Non-Christians who are against Abortion/Stem Cell Reserach. I'm not going to go any farther down this road.

yes, there are plenty of non-christians that believe that way. but those who do believe that way are still using faith, not reason.

But back on track. How many things have Christians in this country had taken away from them because a small group like you, whined and whined and whined. We can't pray in Schools, we can't get ANY funding by the government in private schools, not all of which are Christian, because athiests are too afraid the schools will use this to brainwash the kids into actually believing in a religon. When these same exact schools are recording higher SAT and ACT scores than those of public. You want to get rid of anything that has to do with God, you want to throw out any word of God ever. How can such a small word offend you. Why does it bother you so much.

prayer was not taken out of schools, anybody can verify this by going to a school and praying. what is taken out of schools is government endorsement of religion. this is the first amendment. if the government can endorse one religion, whose to say that tomorrow it wont be islam? and if that happened, you hypocritical christians would be crying for separation of church and state louder than any atheist ever has. (btw, look up the religions of most people who bring these suits... they aint atheists. theyre mostly catholics and jews.)

But when Christians ask for a little piece of something, as soon as it happens, people like YOU snex, whine and whine and whine. If you can't put up with a simple word that says God, then why do you expect Christians to put up with you.

EDIT:I'm off to work, so If I don't respond, it's not because I'm wussing out.

all i expect is when you make a claim, you bring the evidence. and christians are a spectacular failure at this. you are the ones who want special treatment. you want your claims to be accepted without evidence, but whenever a muslim or a psychic or a shady used car salesman tries to push their own bull****, how you love to run for cover under the same cry of "EVIDENCE PLEASE!"

 

[EC_Joey]

The main issue I have with Christianity is that many of its followers seem to feel that their religion gives them the moral high ground, that they are a step above people who don't share the same beliefs.

Look at the general opinion that Christians have of Islam. They believe in the same God, but just because a small group of extremists decide to attack the US, suddenly you see Muslims being discriminated against, and the media tossing around words like "jihad", accusing Obama of being a Muslim when he clearly is not.

I am not alleging that all Christians are bigots, but it's hard to deny that there are those who clearly have a skewed sense of morality and superiority, and refuse to admit it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@lonejedi: Wow... somebody is bitter. You know why mandatory prayer was taken out of schools? Because kids were being told to pray, just like they are told to salute the flag and say the Pledge; prayer was being sponsored and sanctioned by schools. It was ruled unconstitutional for a reason; because schools are supposed to be neutral (or at least state schools are), and forcing or even sponsoring prayer in a public schools breaks that neutrality. After all, kids were praying to God, not Buddha or Allah or Yahweh.

As for funding... I can't really speak much on that because I'm not knowledgeable on that subject, but I cfan tell you why I would be against it: you're totally right that I don't trust any religious person to use the money for totally neutral activities. Remember: spreading the word of Christ is a good thing as far as Christianity is concerned, so it's only natural that a good meaning, God-fearing person would let their religious beliefs bias their actions. It's not bad, per se, but I wouldn't want my child associated with a religious event without him/her wanting to participate, and so I hold that standard to my peers as well.

 

[SSBbo]

religion brings the world more pain and suffering than it does good stuff, so I don't think it's beneficial to have around.

That's caused by human nature. Despite what Anne Frank said, there are many bad people in this world, and they're going to do bad things either way. certain religious people blow up hospitals, some atheists "speed up natural selection" (dispose of handicapped people), but some fishermen sit in the cabin and make everyone else risk their lives during a storm, some military leaders destroy countries instead of protecting their own etc.

 

[SSBbo]

lonejedi and snex both have a point.
but they overlooked the fact that college proffesors do the same thing with atheism and liberalism, brainwash students in beliving the way THEY do, instead of having their own views on life.

 

[snex]

That's caused by human nature. Despite what Anne Frank said, there are many bad people in this world, and they're going to do bad things either way. certain religious people blow up hospitals, some atheists "speed up natural selection" (dispose of handicapped people), but some fishermen sit in the cabin and make everyone else risk their lives during a storm, some military leaders destroy countries instead of protecting their own etc.

"With or without [religion], you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion." - stephen weinberg

consider: most members of the nazi army were christians. most members of the nazi german public were christians. are you seriously under the delusion that an entire NATION of people was just rotten evil? i find that unlikely. what i find much more likely is that their religious beliefs tainted their understanding of right and wrong, enabling them to view jews as sub-human. anti-semitism had a long history in christian europe, and martin luther himself was a flaming anti-semite. his writings eerily echo the holocaust centuries before it happened, and the lutheran church he founded is still around toady.

 

[snex]

lonejedi and snex both have a point.
but they overlooked the fact that college proffesors do the same thing with atheism and liberalism, brainwash students in beliving the way THEY do, instead of having their own views on life.

spoken by somebody who has clearly never taken a single college course in his life. good job.

 

[Aesir]

That's caused by human nature. Despite what Anne Frank said, there are many bad people in this world, and they're going to do bad things either way. certain religious people blow up hospitals, some atheists "speed up natural selection" (dispose of handicapped people), but some fishermen sit in the cabin and make everyone else risk their lives during a storm, some military leaders destroy countries instead of protecting their own etc.

Like Steven Weinburg said. "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

So in essence religion is rather useless, especially when you look at the abrahamic religions.

also:

some atheists "speed up natural selection" (dispose of handicapped people)

Explain please.

edit: Wow I can't believe snex and I posted the same thing..>_>

 

[snex]

Like Steven Weinburg said. "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

So in essence religion is rather useless, especially when you look at the abrahamic religions.

also:

Explain please.

ha, i beat you to the quote.

also, yes, how would it be "speeding up natural selection" to kill cripples? wouldnt that be... ARTIFICIAL selection?

 

[SSBbo]

i don't think it was an evil nation, i think it was hitler's speech-giving abilties (reminds me of obama).

and also i think that a good person wouldn't do bad things because of a religion, they would interpret their religion differently or get a new one.

 

[Aesir]

That too but also how do atheists dispose of cripple people? in terms of morality Atheists are just as moral as Christians.

Explain ssb the quote I pointed out, and I know you didn't just compare obama to hitler. Please tell me I'm imagining things.

 

[snex]

i don't think it was an evil nation, i think it was hitler's speech-giving abilties (reminds me of obama).

and also i think that a good person wouldn't do bad things because of a religion, they would interpret their religion differently or get a new one.

then you dont understand human psychology at all. lots of religious people who consider themselves good people (and who mostly are.. they dont go around stealing and killing) are easily led to do bad things by their religions.

abstinence only sex education is a proven failure. it increases teen pregnancy rates and STD rates, yet good religious people demand it. why? do they really want their children to get pregnant and diseases? i dont think they want this, but this will be the result of their demands.

hitler was a great speaker, no doubt, but what did he always make reference to in his speeches? not evolution, not darwin, but god. hitler, whether he truly believed in god or not, appealed to god constantly because he knew the religious people of germany would act on it.

 

[Chaco]

Wow, Snex we agreed. It is all in faith, I'm glad we're on the same page here. I was reading the pages.

 

[EC_Joey]

i don't think it was an evil nation, i think it was hitler's speech-giving abilties (reminds me of obama).

and also i think that a good person wouldn't do bad things because of a religion, they would interpret their religion differently or get a new one.

Speech giving abilities? Certainly Hitler was a powerful speaker, but he was appealing to feelings that were already present in the German population, resentment against the Jewish people. Hitler accused the Jews of being responsible for the economic problems that German people underwent, but almost nobody stood up to him to tell him that he was wrong, they simply went along with his message and vision.

Comparing Obama to Hitler? Obama doesn't try to coerce people into supporting a plan for genocide, and he's definitely not brain-washing people into agreeing with him. Your comparison implies that Obama's oratory abilities are sinister, which they are not.

People interpret their religion to give them a sense of superiority over others who don't share the same beliefs. Everyone's heard this one: "You're going to hell because you don't believe in God, while I'm going to heaven because I do". This bloated feeling of self importance has led to countless instances of discrimination against people who are seen as different because they don't share the same beliefs. Right now a current example of this is how Muslims are being treated. They are shown in a bad light in the media, and there are Muslim families who have reported being made to feel unwelcome when they try and move into a mostly white, Christian neighborhood.

 

[SSBbo]

Speech giving abilities? Certainly Hitler was a powerful speaker, but he was appealing to feelings that were already present in the German population, resentment against the Jewish people. Hitler accused the Jews of being responsible for the economic problems that German people underwent, but almost nobody stood up to him to tell him that he was wrong, they simply went along with his message and vision.

Comparing Obama to Hitler? Obama doesn't try to coerce people into supporting a plan for genocide, and he's definitely not brain-washing people into agreeing with him. Your comparison implies that Obama's oratory abilities are sinister, which they are not.

People interpret their religion to give them a sense of superiority over others who don't share the same beliefs. Everyone's heard this one: "You're going to hell because you don't believe in God, while I'm going to heaven because I do". This bloated feeling of self importance has led to countless instances of discrimination against people who are seen as different because they don't share the same beliefs. Right now a current example of this is how Muslims are being treated. They are shown in a bad light in the media, and there are Muslim families who have reported being made to feel unwelcome when they try and move into a mostly white, Christian neighborhood.

everyone likes someone to blame, and obviously the german public wasn't very intelligent at that time.

I was saying that even though obama is wrong, he can convince an entire country to believe what he does.

and also, for some other people out there, truly good people wouldn't be persuaded to kill by a belief (example: non-extremist shias)

 

[snex]

everyone likes someone to blame, and obviously the german public wasn't very intelligent at that time.

I was saying that even though obama is wrong, he can convince an entire country to believe what he does.

and also, for some other people out there, truly good people wouldn't be persuaded to kill by a belief (example: non-extremist shias)

now youre just using circular logic.

if you had met many of the nazis that personally killed the jews, and had not known about this, you probably would have thought many of them were good people only until you found out what they did.

 

[SSBbo]

probably doesn't cut it in the debate hall.
but i'll play along, i say one of those murder shows that my mom was watching, and the suspect seemed like a nice guy, he didn't seem like he'd ever kill his wife, but then they showed the evidence.
he now serves his life-sentence and confessed.

 

[Jack Kieser]

For God's sake, the Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth. If that doesn't illustrate the point, I don't know what will.

 

[snex]

For God's sake, the Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth. If that doesn't illustrate the point, I don't know what will.

well, the pope also deserted the nazi army, so thats a decent example for the theist camp.

but for every nazi deserter who was a christian, how many more christians were eager to join up? thats the real measure you need to look at.

 

[SSBbo]

I'm leaving this thread cuz i've made my point multiple times: religion does not bring about murderous "good" people.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm leaving this thread cuz i've made my point multiple times: religion does not bring about murderous "good" people.

Yes, it does. What is the direct catalyst of nearly all of the turmoil in the Middle East? Religious conflict over who gets to have control of the Holy Lands.

Religion can, does, and will bring about violence in people. History proves it again and again. Maybe not in every single person... but it will inevitably bring it about in someone.

 

[GhostAnime]

www.whatstheharm.net was posted by snex pages ago. i suggest you see into it, bo.

 

[EC_Joey]

I'm leaving this thread cuz i've made my point multiple times: religion does not bring about murderous "good" people.

Naive to the point of ignorance. Religion doesn't preach violence, but religious conflict has been around for God knows how long (pun intended).

 

[lonejedi]

then you dont understand human psychology at all. lots of religious people who consider themselves good people (and who mostly are.. they dont go around stealing and killing) are easily led to do bad things by their religions.

abstinence only sex education is a proven failure. it increases teen pregnancy rates and STD rates, yet good religious people demand it. why? do they really want their children to get pregnant and diseases? i dont think they want this, but this will be the result of their demands.

hitler was a great speaker, no doubt, but what did he always make reference to in his speeches? not evolution, not darwin, but god. hitler, whether he truly believed in god or not, appealed to god constantly because he knew the religious people of germany would act on it.

But how is that religion's fault? That's people who are stupid enough to do something like this. Yes, religion is the reason they do it, but this is a small part of religion. And what about all the good religion does do? Everyone is so easy to remember how bad religion can be but what about all the charities that churches raise? Churches raise millions in charity every year. And what about helping those who have problems. How many killers, rapists, thieves, ect, have turned to Christianity and stopped their incredibly bad habit? How many lives were saved because someone who was going to kill themselves didn't because someone reached out to them?

And the list goes on. The extremists always get the headlines, but no one talks about all the other things.

 

[Amide]

Lonejedi's right: You can't judge a religion from its radicals. Religion raises money for so many causes, and I guarantee that most religious people aren't radicals. It's still too bad that people do these things, but it's practically irrelevant to religion as a whole.

 

[BFDD]

I don't think they are judging religion based on the radicals they are saying religion makes the radicals. Suicide bombers kill themselves because they believe god will reward them. It would be much harder to convince someone to kill themselves if they believed they would just cease to exist.

 

[Aesir]

But how is that religion's fault? That's people who are stupid enough to do something like this. Yes, religion is the reason they do it, but this is a small part of religion. And what about all the good religion does do? Everyone is so easy to remember how bad religion can be but what about all the charities that churches raise? Churches raise millions in charity every year. And what about helping those who have problems. How many killers, rapists, thieves, ect, have turned to Christianity and stopped their incredibly bad habit? How many lives were saved because someone who was going to kill themselves didn't because someone reached out to them?

Bill Gates is an Agnostic/Atheist, he's donated billions to charities. This one man can easily outshine churches in their ability to raise money. This is a man with really no religious affiliation yet he takes his money and does good with it.

Julianne Moore also an atheist who is a pro-choice activist advocating woman's rights.

Susan B. Anthony Atheists and an early feminist advocating equal rights for woman.

Warren Buffett again atheist donated billions to charities.

I don't care what anyone says but Pat Tillman is by far the most selfless atheist he gave up a career in profession football and enlisted in the army.

The reason why it's over looked is because you don't have to be religious to be charitable or a good person. You can have moral background and be an atheist. (I know you weren't implying that just trying to make apoint) So when you say why doesn't anyone notice the good religion does? it's because while they do good they also have done more bad deeds and the good deeds are nothing special as non-believers do good deeds as well.

How many Killers, rapists and theives were religious prior to being caught?

There are a good amount of killers who were religious prior to being caught. John Bodkin Adams was raised in a heavily religious household and was rather religious himself.
A doctor as well who more a less killed people by prescribing them faulty medications. usually non-believers were his victims.

 

[snex]

the point is that the method of using religion to arrive at truth is BROKEN. it can generate literally ANY behavior, whether good or bad, because it is entirely RANDOM. science is not a broken behavior. science clearly points to certain directions, and the more we investigate, the closer we come to a consensus. the longer religion "investigates," the more schisms you get. this is not a good sign if the methodology works.

a broken clock telling the correct time twice a day is not a compelling argument for failing to take it to get fixed.

 

[Deleted member]

If people want to bring up nasty histories, let's not forget Dr. Mengel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele

Or Unit 731

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731



Tell me that science isn't broken behaviour. The door swings both ways. There are nutjobs who believe and there are nutjobs who don't believe, it's not limited to the faithful.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Bill Gates is an Agnostic/Atheist, he's donated billions to charities. This one man can easily outshine churches in their ability to raise money. This is a man with really no religious affiliation yet he takes his money and does good with it.

Julianne Moore also an atheist who is a pro-choice activist advocating woman's rights.

Susan B. Anthony Atheists and an early feminist advocating equal rights for woman.

Warren Buffett again atheist donated billions to charities.

I don't care what anyone says but Pat Tillman is by far the most selfless atheist he gave up a career in profession football and enlisted in the army.

The reason why it's over looked is because you don't have to be religious to be charitable or a good person. You can have moral background and be an atheist. (I know you weren't implying that just trying to make apoint) So when you say why doesn't anyone notice the good religion does? it's because while they do good they also have done more bad deeds and the good deeds are nothing special as non-believers do good deeds as well.

How many Killers, rapists and theives were religious prior to being caught?

There are a good amount of killers who were religious prior to being caught. John Bodkin Adams was raised in a heavily religious household and was rather religious himself.
A doctor as well who more a less killed people by prescribing them faulty medications. usually non-believers were his victims.

well actually religious organizations donated $84.28 billion in 2002 in the U.S. alone if bill gates can "easily out shine churches in their ability to raise money" then ill worship him cause he'll probably have to make over 10 times more money than he has made in his life every year if we count the entire world.

If non believers doing good things neutralize the billions of believers doing good things why don't the non believers doing bad things neutralize the believers doing bad things.

 

[Aesir]

Science isn't an ideology like religion is, people don't kill in the name of science yet in the name of god it's very common.

Josef wasn't religious but his Nazi ideologies are very dogmatic, much like Stalin. Non-believers do not have any set of beliefs only the belief that there is no god. It's hard to wage crusades in the name of atheism, but in the name of god it's easier.

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

"Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools."

Many evangelicals think creation should be taught along with creation. The discovery institute often sites that Evolution can't explain why certain processes happen, despite the fact they have but that's an entirely different topic.

That's evidence that the majority of Americans believe in creationalism. A significant chunk of Christianity, but the entire US is not even enough to constitute half of the Catholics in the world, let alone a majority of Christians.

Even if every US citizen was Christian and believed in young earth creationalism it would not prove the statement.


I'd say that it's probably the opposite, given that Christian fundamentalist movements have a much less firm hold on other areas of the world, and especially given that the Catholic church (which comprises more then half of the Christians in the world) officially accepts evolution and explicitly condemns the teaching of intelligent design as scientific theory in schools.

Annoyingly enough, I can't seem to find statistics to this effect, but a majority supporting evolution should be the null hypothesis.

 

[Aesir]

Sure in America it's absolutely true however the statement was. "More Christians believe in creation over evolution." It's not a question how many people in the world favor creation over evolution, as the creation would severely beaten. However a majority of Christian's will believe in creation over evolution. That's assuming the ratio of evangelicals is higher then the rate of moderates in Europe and Asia. Also just because the catholic church says doesn't mean it's going to immediately effect every ones beliefs in the church.


edit:

well actually religious organizations donated $84.28 billion in 2002 in the U.S. alone if bill gates can "easily out shine churches in their ability to raise money" then ill worship him cause he'll probably have to make over 10 times more money than he has made in his life every year if we count the entire world.

Do you have data to support this?

If non believers doing good things neutralize the billions of believers doing good things why don't the non believers doing bad things neutralize the believers doing bad things.

you're looking at this way to literal.

My whole argument points that if religion wasn't there it would happen anyway, people do good if they're good people people do bad if they're bad people. Religion barely has an effect, because if it did you wouldn't have religi-nuts flying planes into towers would you?

I also mentioned that because atheists don't commit mass genocide in the name of atheism. However you'll see a religious person do that.