How Can Anyone Believe in God?

[RDK]

I know this topic is going to cause quite a fuss, but honestly, the more and more I see what kind of sick **** goes on in this world, the more and more I want to physically strike some of the Christians I know, who constantly shrug terrible things off as "God has a plan", or "God didn't do it, people did."

Christians believe God is all-loving. Why would an all-loving God let the atrocities going on in our world happen? And another thing I don't get--why even create us when, being the omnipotent and omnipresent God He is, He must have known that we would have ****ed up royally and ****ed ourselves to an eternity in Hell?

Christians usually try to explain this by saying that God yearns for a personal relationship with us. This is probably one of the most absurd things I've ever heard in my life. Growing up in a Christian home, I've heard a lot of whacko stuff, but this one really takes the cake. I'm supremely glad that I started thinking for myself before graduating.

Why does the Almighty God, creator of the universe, desire a personal relationship with a sinful being? If He's an all-powerful God, won't He by default know anything and everything about us, thus making this "relationship" moot?

Also, according to the Bible, sin entered the world through Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden. Why should the rest of humanity have to suffer from the bad decision of two people? That's utterly ridiculous. Why should I have to pay for the sins of Adam?

About Hell: why should truly good people who just have the misfortune of not knowing about Christ have to suffer in flames (for eternity, mind you) next to child molesters /abusers, rapists, murderers, dictators, etc.? And worse yet, what about the truly bad people who "repent" and join the faith?

Basically, this is just a rant, but I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a long time.

[/rant]

 

[Blackadder]

...I 'unno.
I myself am Agnostic, I guess. I like to think there must be somethin' bigger out there, but I don't think humans have any idea of it what so ever, and I doubt that it really cares much for us.

But hey, I hardly think about it anyway! We're here, and we're all living our lives. And we all choose our own faith.

I guess some of the religious guys here will be able to give you some reasons, but I agree with you really. A lot of the Bible is absurd to me, as well as many Christian concepts. Though there's nothing wrong with trying to live a "good" life, at all. But the Godly stuff is lost on me.

I bet there's enough ignorant crap in that post for someone here to give me a good roasting in that competition, btw.

 

[AltF4]

It's just Doublethink. The idea of an omnipotent all-loving god, and mass atrocities are mutually exclusive. But this contradiction (and countless others) are brushed aside cleverly so as for the religious leaders to stay in power.

That is why christianity is so often "at war" with science. Because if everyone thought rationally, the power in the church would diminish. If the church wanted anything less than power, they would embrace all that science offers, since science itself was created by their god. (According to their own beliefs)

 

[Eor]

I didn't read your post because I'm biased against colored posts, but the basic thing you have to understand is that a God cannot be disproven, and that, at least to me, there is something Spiritual in this world. Now, I don't think it's actually "spirits" or something supernatural, but that is the English word for the feeling, and so I use it. When your told that God exists and that that is what those feelings are, then you can pretty much believe in him despite no evidence for or against. The Bible is a different thing then a belief in a Deity, I myself, back before I lost faith, thought the bible might have been right or "inspired" to be right, but was translated by men and transformed it. I didn't even knick-pick, I had no idea if Jesus was a real "son of God", but I liked most of his philosophies so I worshiped him anyways, not that I prayed much because I've never been a big believer in God stepping down and personally changing things, only in him making me get over or feeling better about something. So it's not a big stretch to believe in a God by any stakes, I'd actually say you're being close minded by thinking everyone who does is an idiot, and I label you no better then an idiotic preacher who says Atheists secretly worship demons. And just to make it very clear, I myself am an Atheist/Agnostic, in the sense that I don't believe God exists but I accept the possibility of it.

 

[RDK]

I'd actually say you're being close minded by thinking everyone who does is an idiot, and I label you no better then an idiotic preacher who says Atheists secretly worship demons. And just to make it very clear, I myself am an Atheist/Agnostic, in the sense that I don't believe God exists but I accept the possibility of it.

I'm sorry that my post came off as so hostile to you; that's probably the product of me staying up too late last night and not organizing my thoughts too clearly.

I guess my beef is with the "Christian" God, mostly. I don't deny the possiblility of there being a higher power or a divine being; it's just that at this point, how can we possibly speculate correctly as to what it even is, when we haven't even developed science to understand half of our universe's processes around us?

It just seems absurd.

 

[Florida]

This is going to turn into another Christianity v.s. Science topic.

Christians believe God is all-loving. Why would an all-loving God let the atrocities going on in our world happen? And another thing I don't get--why even create us when, being the omnipotent and omnipresent God He is, He must have known that we would have ****ed up royally and ****ed ourselves to an eternity in Hell?

God knows everything, correct; he knew that we'd all sin, but he wanted to give us a choice. That's why there's the punishment of Hell, or the reward of Heaven.

Why does the Almighty God, creator of the universe, desire a personal relationship with a sinful being? If He's an all-powerful God, won't He by default know anything and everything about us, thus making this "relationship" moot?

Because he is merciful and loving-- as the Bible teaches.

Also, according to the Bible, sin entered the world through Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden. Why should the rest of humanity have to suffer from the bad decision of two people? That's utterly ridiculous. Why should I have to pay for the sins of Adam?

Don't we pay for our ancestors mistakes currently as well?

 

[RDK]

God knows everything, correct; he knew that we'd all sin, but he wanted to give us a choice. That's why there's the punishment of Hell, or the reward of Heaven.

Aha, but here's the kicker. Who created the concept of "free will" itself? Who created the system of choosing from right and wrong? God did, apparently. Why go this route? Why not go the route of ultimate functionality? Because you have to remember that in order to create the ability to choose one way, there has to be an alternative.

Why did God create the system of free will? He could have created it any other way, and it still would have been good because our views of right and wrong all stem from the Creator

Don't we pay for our ancestors mistakes currently as well?

This is a terrible point to use in this type of debate. The relationship between God and humans is definetely not the same between humans and other humans.

Yes, we pay for our ancestors' mistakes, but not like in this context. God made it so that they had the CHOICE to take the fallen path, and what do you know, we did.

 

[Eight Sage]

Sincerely, I'm getting very tired of topics like this, but I have energy left to prove that your statements come from your feelings and not from true facts.

I know this topic is going to cause quite a fuss, but honestly, the more and more I see what kind of sick **** goes on in this world, the more and more I want to physically strike some of the Christians I know, who constantly shrug terrible things off as "God has a plan", or "God didn't do it, people did."

Is there a doubt about this? God created us free, yes FREE because if we weren't free then this topic would be "why God pushes us to do this and this not".
If you choose to use your freedom for bad/good things, it's your choice not God's one.

Christians believe God is all-loving. Why would an all-loving God let the atrocities going on in our world happen? And another thing I don't get--why even create us when, being the omnipotent and omnipresent God He is, He must have known that we would have ****ed up royally and ****ed ourselves to an eternity in Hell?

309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive." From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more", brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.

Feeling different now?

Christians usually try to explain this by saying that God yearns for a personal relationship with us. This is probably one of the most absurd things I've ever heard in my life. Growing up in a Christian home, I've heard a lot of whacko stuff, but this one really takes the cake. I'm supremely glad that I started thinking for myself before graduating.

You grew up in a Christian home yet saying nonsense things. I don't really get the point of this.

Why does the Almighty God, creator of the universe, desire a personal relationship with a sinful being? If He's an all-powerful God, won't He by default know anything and everything about us, thus making this "relationship" moot?

He created us because he wanted to share his love and grace with us. I don't understand you, why are you asking basic questions if you grew up in a Christian home?

Also, according to the Bible, sin entered the world through Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden. Why should the rest of humanity have to suffer from the bad decision of two people? That's utterly ridiculous. Why should I have to pay for the sins of Adam?

Still stating basic things. When you steal something, does Adam watch your back in case the police comes? That situation shows the free will of men for sining.

About Hell: why should truly good people who just have the misfortune of not knowing about Christ have to suffer in flames (for eternity, mind you) next to child molesters /abusers, rapists, murderers, dictators, etc.? And worse yet, what about the truly bad people who "repent" and join the faith?

Again, you know nothing about Christianity yet making such arguments. If you don't believe in the existence of God, he will threat you the way you treated his brothers.
If you "repent" then you are conscious that you did something wrong, then: why not forgive? Remember that Christ came for the ill, not for the healthy.

The point of the thread? none. What did you expect? a "Yes Red Darkstar Kirby, you're right"?

Even Eor, who isn't a believer, thinks the same.

When your told that God exists and that that is what those feelings are, then you can pretty much believe in him despite no evidence for or against. The Bible is a different thing then a belief in a Deity, I myself, back before I lost faith, thought the bible might have been right or "inspired" to be right, but was translated by men and transformed it. I didn't even knick-pick, I had no idea if Jesus was a real "son of God", but I liked most of his philosophies so I worshiped him anyways, not that I prayed much because I've never been a big believer in God stepping down and personally changing things, only in him making me get over or feeling better about something. So it's not a big stretch to believe in a God by any stakes, I'd actually say you're being close minded by thinking everyone who does is an idiot, and I label you no better then an idiotic preacher who says Atheists secretly worship demons. And just to make it very clear, I myself am an Atheist/Agnostic, in the sense that I don't believe God exists but I accept the possibility of it.

I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a long time.

And you choose Internet... (opinions are on your minds fellas)

Why didn't you go talk with a priest? did you know you'd find your answer here? Bashing some religion isn't something to debate. I'm out.

 

[Deleted member]

Very well said Eight Sage, bashing a religion isn't something to debate.

Red Darkstar Kirby, you keep posting that God did this and did that, and it sounds like you believe it.

Growing up in a Christian household, you sound like you are still clinging onto Christianity and you haven't fully given it up yet. Is that right?

The relationship between God and humans is definetely not the same between humans and other humans.

A true atheist would say that God hasn't established a relationship between humans. So you must rely on past paradigms and events to consider how we have shaped our world.

Free will is free will. It's not God's place to force upon us what we can or cannot do. All he can do, or so it is said, is punish those who deny him. It is a test of faith and will - don't you get this? I don't really believe in most Christian beliefs / creation myths, but I think that if I were to, this is the first point I would realize that made sense.

And really, to respond to the thread title - it's kind of silly, don't you think?

Watch the Planet Earth series. Man, I watched two episodes for the first time last night. That footage really makes an unbelievable argument for intelligent design.

 

[RDK]

Well, this last post shatters my expectations that a semi-friendly conversation about something without bashing can happen. Oh well--it's Smashboards.

Feeling different now?

No, partly because the wall of text you just posted is A) from the Vatican, and B) complete and udder theological nonsense. You bash me for saying I'M posting nonsensical things when you turn around and throw empty theology like THAT at me? Wow.

And also, if you actually read what you posted, I addressed all the points in that paragraph already. So I don't see where you'e going with this.

You grew up in a Christian home yet saying nonsense things. I don't really get the point of this.

Please explain what part of my argument is nonsense.

He created us because he wanted to share his love and grace with us. I don't understand you, why are you asking basic questions if you grew up in a Christian home?

Because basic Christian principles are logically demented and are so obviously convoluted that a ten year old should be able to see through it.

Still stating basic things. When you steal something, does Adam watch your back in case the police comes? That situation shows the free will of men for sining.

I don't understand your analogy about Adam watching people's backs in case the police come. What does that even have to do with anything?

Again, you know nothing about Christianity yet making such arguments. If you don't believe in the existence of God, he will threat you the way you treated his brothers.
If you "repent" then you are conscious that you did something wrong, then: why not forgive? Remember that Christ came for the ill, not for the healthy.

So God has brothers now? What?

And the whole concept of what is right and wrong comes back to whether or not the Bible is absolute truth, and should be taken as such.

The point of the thread? none. What did you expect? a "Yes Red Darkstar Kirby, you're right"?

No, I expected some intelligent responses, but alas, I guess I'm not getting any from you.

Why didn't you go talk with a priest? did you know you'd find your answer here? Bashing some religion isn't something to debate. I'm out.

Whoever said I haven't talked with religious leaders? Again, you're making baseless assumptions.

 

[Florida]

Aha, but here's the kicker. Who created the concept of "free will" itself? Who created the system of choosing from right and wrong? God did, apparently. Why go this route? Why not go the route of ultimate functionality? Because you have to remember that in order to create the ability to choose one way, there has to be an alternative.

Why did God create the system of free will? He could have created it any other way, and it still would have been good because our views of right and wrong all stem from the Creator

God wanted us to love him by our own choice, that's why he lets us choose. God doesn't control our life, though we are encouraged to follow the life of Jesus.

This is a terrible point to use in this type of debate. The relationship between God and humans is definetely not the same between humans and other humans.

Right-- it's far better. Haven't you read John 3:16? We're supposed to love God more than any earthly treasure and other people. He is first in our life.

Yes, we pay for our ancestors' mistakes, but not like in this context. God made it so that they had the CHOICE to take the fallen path, and what do you know, we did.

And that's God's fault?

 

[AltF4]

Feeling different now?

No. I read the quote from the vatican website you posted and in no way does it resolve the contradiction in having a perfect god and a (very) imperfect world. It is Doublethink to assert so, which is a well known technique of control over dissident thought. And the Vatican sure doesn't have a history with being open to free thought.

 

[RDK]

No. I read the quote from the vatican website you posted and in no way does it resolve the contradiction in having a perfect god and a (very) imperfect world. It is Doublethink to assert so, which is a well known technique of control over dissident thought. And the Vatican sure doesn't have a history with being open to free thought.

That's exactly what I think.

In order for sin and lack of perfection to exist, there had to be some sort of catalyst to set this in motion, no?

 

[AltF4]

That's exactly what I think.

In order for sin and lack of perfection to exist, there had to be some sort of catalyst to set this in motion, no?

Are you trying to make the argument that there must be a god because the universe exists and therefore must have been created? This is not a valid argument, look into Stephen Hawking's "No Boundary" condition. Simply put, the universe CAN exist without having been explicitly created.

Watch the Planet Earth series. Man, I watched two episodes for the first time last night. That footage really makes an unbelievable argument for intelligent design.

Also not a valid argument: see The Anthropic Principle. (Still a good show though)

 

[RDK]

Are you trying to make the argument that there must be a god because the universe exists and therefore must have been created? This is not a valid argument, look into Stephen Hawking's "No Boundary" condition. Simply put, the universe CAN exist without having been explicitly created.

No, I'm just saying that, buy Creationist logic, God is the source of all things, so it doesn't make sense when they say that sin doens't come from God.

 

[Deleted member]

Also not a valid argument: see The Anthropic Principle. (Still a good show though)

Yeahhhhh....I have no idea what this is talking about. I wiki'd it.

I don't see why I'm not allowed to think that their unbelievable footage unintentionally backed up my belief in intelligent design because of some principle..

All the series did was make me realize that the world is quite the wristwatch.

I'm not really arguing here. It's my personal belief. If you thought I was arguing, then I am no means am. I'm simply expressing that my belief was only amplified by the series.

...you're not saying that the intelligent design theory is wrong, are you? How can anyone prove it's wrong?

 

[AltF4]

Yeahhhhh....I have no idea what this is talking about. I wiki'd it.

I don't see why I'm not allowed to think that their unbelievable footage unintentionally backed up my belief in intelligent design because of some principle..

All the series did was make me realize that the world is quite the wristwatch.

I'm not really arguing here. It's my personal belief. If you thought I was arguing, then I am no means am. I'm simply expressing that my belief was only amplified by the series.

...you're not saying that the intelligent design theory is wrong, are you? How can anyone prove it's wrong?

We are not the first people to have debated religious topics. A very common argument for intelligent design is "The world is so beautiful and well suited for life, it must have been created by someone, not just a random occurrence" But this argument is not valid.

The anthropic principle simply states the obvious: Life can only exist in places with conditions suitable for life. There are many places in the universe, most of which are ill-suited for harboring life. It should come as no suprise to us, then, that we find our planet (that we know to have life) to be perfectly suited to harbor life. What else did you expect? Life on a planet that wasn't suitable to hold life?

EDIT: It's kind of like driving through Scottsdale, Az (Known for being a rich town) and noticing all the big expensive looking houses. When you then later discover that rich people live there, it should come as no surpise. You shouldn't say "Wow, there must be a god, because there's no way it's a coincidence that all these rich people live in these really nice neighborhoods!"

That particular argument for intelligent design is not valid, but you are correct in saying that it is impossible to disprove. And that is on purpose. It is by design (pun intended) not disprovable. It is made that way because then you don't have to go to all the bother of being right. It's much easier to assume that you're right first, and then not listen to any evidence to the contrary.


..It's still a good show. Have you seen it in HD?

 

[Gamer4Fire]

How Can Anyone Believe in God?

Most people are raised that way. If you grow up being told that something is so by your parents, you believe it. After all, you trust and love your parents. They wouldn't lie to you. They have no reason to.

Other people find god after they've been introduced to him by a respected individual, like a preacher. They see a person who is doing good things for unfortunate people. Such an altruistic person wouldn't lie about something so important and dedicate his entire life to it unless he believed it to be true.

A lot of people don't find god at all. They go to churches or temples for the social gatherings. They know little to nothing of the religion itself except that its what all their friends do and what their preacher tells them. A lot of people simple share the group experience, including the group beliefs.

And all of these people will defend their beliefs to the last because it would disrupt their rosy worldview. Most hold no real malice towards people who disagree, but feel insecure when their views are disturbed.

 

[Mic_128]

Most people are raised that way. If you grow up being told that something is so by your parents, you believe it. After all, you trust and love your parents. They wouldn't lie to you.

Going off on a tangent, but yes, most do. Santa? Easter Bunny? Toothfairy?

If these great invisable guys aren't real, what about this big "god" guy?

 

[Deleted member]

Going off on a tangent, but yes, most do. Santa? Easter Bunny? Toothfairy?

If these great invisable guys aren't real, what about this big "god" guy?

I've never seen such meticulous nit-picking. Nobody knows if God exists or not.

 

[RDK]

I've never seen such meticulous nit-picking. Nobody knows if God exists or not.

You're confusing nitpicking with making a point. He was responding to the post about parents not lying to their children when that's honestly not entirely correct.

Most people are raised that way. If you grow up being told that something is so by your parents, you believe it. After all, you trust and love your parents. They wouldn't lie to you. They have no reason to.

I think this, tied in with the fact that people are self-righteous and think they have everything all figured out, are the main reasons it's hard for people to change their religious viewpoint. And this doesn't just apply to religion--it can be you viewpoint about anything. The fact that you grew up being taught it also doesn't help.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

If you want true honesty, I think God was just bored. You don't need some big and righteous reason to create life when you have the ability to, do you? If you're omnipowerful and omnipotent then you can do whatever you want. I'm a Christian in that I believe in God and Jesus Christ BUT I don't belong to any specific division of Christianity and instead choose to believe what I think is what's really going on.

I don't deny that God might be all-loving and forgiving but I also think he wants attention. To me, that was his whole basis for creating life. He wants some attention. If he was truly here forever then I can say he must have been pretty freaking bored. Knowing everything and being all-powerful gets old really freaking fast when you're all alone. And thus the whole, "Believe in me or go to hell!" concept comes into play. He's God. He created everything so those are his rules.

And you're right, he could have made everything perfect but then he would have had faceless humans with no personality. They would ALL be the same. They would ALL act the same. They would ALL do the same thing for the rest of eternity to the end of time. With the knowledge of both good and evil, personality can thrive. To counter this, he gave us free will which allows us to choose either side: good or evil. He also gives you the choice in believing in him or not because I'm sure he didn't want to completely impose in on our lives or force us to accept this concept (keep in mind that evil is now an understood concept in the scenario where good and evil is known but worship MUST be done) that he exists when he gave us the knowledge of good and evil which encompasses pretty much all knowledge in general.

Also, the concept of evil intrigues me. Are animals naturally evil or hostile towards one another? If life sprouts where life can be maintained then why would something like evil govern their lives to the point where senseless murder takes place? Wouldn't we want to HELP those in need rather than kill senselessly? Wouldn't that make more sense? If you took all the funds the world spends on military then you could feed the entire population twice over. End of world hunger AND the end of war with one stone.

Hell, I actually think evil only further proves God's existence. I'm interested in seeing the scientific basis by which evil has come into existence. Mind you, it's not my intention to disprove athiests or anything because I constantly question God's existence myself.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

You destroy your own point, if god is omnipotent then the beginning, progress and end of his test would already be known to him and creating anything become superfluous.

And evil does not exist. The "senseless" killing that happens in nature are due to biological mechanisms to help further personal protection and procreation. The killing of a mothers children in order to destroy the "inferior" male's genes from procreating and mating to ensure yours do is a good example. It helps to ensure the survival of the species.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Even if we know the outcome, sometimes we like to test them anyway, right?

If that is what describes evil then how come good people don't do the same? You seem like a pretty intelligent person so why don't you tell me the full extent of why good and evil exist and their differences. They're not merely concepts or instincts. Animals have no understanding of good or evil. But we do.

Evolutionary steps towards progression make sense to me when I think about complex thought or whatever because that actually does help survival but good and evil are utterly useless when it comes to self-progression. Why am I willing to save a stranger's life and why is somebody willing to kill them?

Explain it to me.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Because we are social creatures.

The killing of younglings references animal behavior ie. apes, bears, alligators, etc. And since humans are still mammals, we still have these processes. But we also have civilisation and have created social contracts called mores, customs, taboos, hierarchies and laws. Our higher brain function allows us to over ride some of our baser instincts. And to answer why would a person risk their life to save a stranger, because we are also programmed as social creatures to attempt to protect our own kind. Dogs, horses and elephants have also shown the ability to risk their own lives to same others of their own kind. This helps to ensure that their species as a whole survives. We also have a strong sense to protect children, either own or those of our friends (non-competitors). Many animals show these instincts (try to take an alligators eggs away from her and see what happens).

In all of these things, evil has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

So you're implying that we're all programmed to both kill and save? Or are we made individually that way? And WHY would be made individually that way? By which I mean: Save unbiased or kill unbiased. Throw specifics out the window.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Clarify?

 

[AltF4]

Now it sounds like you're debating the existence of altruism and evil. Why do you assume that they exist? Nobody (except the clinically insane) does things because they know them to be wrong or evil, they do them because they think they are justified.

If you ask a murderer why they committed their crime, they'll give you a justification. A reason why, in their mind, they thought it was acceptable to do it. The only crime they were guilty of is having a different classification of what is and is not acceptable from the majority of society.

Similarly, it can be argued that altruism doesn't exist. When people give to charities, or otherwise help other humans out, they do so with an expected reward. Sometimes this reward is the "good feeling" they get for doing so. But that makes the justification for philanthropy essentially the same as the justification for doing heroin: A desired feeling. They only give because it makes them feel good, and not because they actually want to help you out.

But this is going off topic, I think.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I never cared to stay on-topic, I'm too interested in this now. I gave a lot over the Christmas break and didn't seek any reward and I didn't even get any good feeling. Hell, it made me feel bad because I thought in my mind, "This isn't enough and never will be."

I want to know the full extent of this now. And not to debate against it but simply because I'm curious. Not everything has to be a debate.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I gave a lot over the Christmas break and didn't seek any reward and I didn't even get any good feeling. Hell, it made me feel bad because I thought in my mind, "This isn't enough and never will be."

This is were those social contracts come in. You feel socially obligated to give gifts for christmas because society (family, friends, media) said you had to. Then you felt bad when you failed your obligation to society. Even if it was an artificial obligation or an artificial failure.

 

[RDK]

I never cared to stay on-topic, I'm too interested in this now. I gave a lot over the Christmas break and didn't seek any reward and I didn't even get any good feeling. Hell, it made me feel bad because I thought in my mind, "This isn't enough and never will be."

But would you really do those things if God hadn't commanded His followers to be kind to other people and do good works? I doubt most people, today at least, would do things like giving to charity, not expecting anything in reward--and approval by God is somewhat of a reward in itself to Christians.

You can write it off as "it makes me feel good", or "I do it to help mankind." But does anyone really give one flying **** about the rest of mankind anymore? If people really did, things would change.

People are either too complacent or just don't give a ****. Moreso the latter.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

My family and friends don't care to give and I haven't seen any media telling me to give in a long while. I don't see how any outside factors could have effected my decision to give. Unless you count the fact that my school was having a food drive as the sole basis alone. I guess you would be right in that sense then but do you really want to prove that life is so easilly understood?

What about your own thoughts? What about others' thoughts? Are you willing to say they simply don't matter and are just in place for survival or whatever? I don't think life is so black and white so I doubt I could ever wrap myself around this concept especially when thought is simply too complex with seemingly unneccessary ideas or thought patterns.

Edit: I'd like to think I do give a f*** about mankind. To put it in your words.

 

[Deleted member]

You're confusing nitpicking with making a point. He was responding to the post about parents not lying to their children when that's honestly not entirely correct.

Sorry, but you need to realize that kids know about Santa when they grow up. It's not a lie anymore when they hit a certain age. Parents, on the whole, do not lie to their kids because they are generally on their side. Of course there are some things they will lie white lie about, but that's only so you can have a good Christmas when you're a kid.

Parents know that Santa isn't real. They don't know that God isn't. This is why it's nit-picking, they are two completely different things.


AltF4, I went to bed last night thinking over your point on the anthropic principle, and it makes sense that life would be on the life-capable planet. That is obvious.

What the anthropic principle doesn't say is an invalid argument, though...

You walk through a desert and you come across a watch. The watch is highly complex and you have no idea how the watch got there, and you see no other watches when your eyes span the desert. It must have gotten there somewhere, and it must have had a watchmaker.

Maybe there's more to the anthropic principle than life on the life planet, but isn't this different?

 

[AltF4]

You walk through a desert and you come across a watch. The watch is highly complex and you have no idea how the watch got there, and you see no other watches when your eyes span the desert. It must have gotten there somewhere, and it must have had a watchmaker.

Maybe there's more to the anthropic principle than life on the life planet, but isn't this different?

Certainly not. The watch must have been created, but there is no reason to assume that it was made by an intelligent being. Why is it inconceivable that the watch have been created through a completely natural process. (Like incredibly complex rock formations and stuff)

The odds are low, yes. Very low. That is exactly the point. Say the odds of a planet having life are one in a quadrillion. (Or whatever small number you choose) The universe is a very big place, and there are lots of planets. One of them (or more) is bound to have life.

I think the argument you're looking for is irreducible complexity.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate you. ^____^

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I love crêpes.


INGREDIENTS
1 cup all-purpose flour
2 eggs
1/2 cup milk
1/2 cup water
1/4 teaspoon salt
2 tablespoons butter, melted

DIRECTIONS
In a large mixing bowl, whisk together the flour and the eggs. Gradually add in the milk and water, stirring to combine. Add the salt and butter; beat until smooth.

Heat a lightly oiled griddle or frying pan over medium high heat. Pour or scoop the batter onto the griddle, using approximately 1/4 cup for each crepe. Tilt the pan with a circular motion so that the batter coats the surface evenly.

Cook the crepe for about 2 minutes, until the bottom is light brown. Loosen with a spatula, turn and cook the other side. Serve hot. [from allrecipes.com]

Serve filled with cream cheese whipped with strawberries.

Your welcome.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Clever.

But I think the direction I took this when I went off-topic had more relevance than a random recipe. An argument commonly used against God is that he was merely thought up to give life meaning and human behavior is expressed in this sense because humans would love nothing more than life after an inevitable death.

I simply want to see the thought patterns of humans through a scientific basis because I like to look at things from both sides of the spectrum.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Actually it was in reference to DeLoRtEd1 saying he hates AltF4.

 

[AltF4]

I hate you. ^____^

I get that...

Spoiler

*Grumbles something inaudible about Buzz winning the master debater award*

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, so now he spells my username correctly...