It's hella hard to spell your username.
And I still don't get the point of posting the recipe for crepe'. >_>
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How Can Anyone Believe in God?
- Thread starter RDK
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And I still don't get the point of posting the recipe for crepe'. >_>
Its called copy and paste.
Uncle Kenny - All this stuff might be black and white, but its because they are generalities based on observable phenomena. There are, of course, always exceptions, even if they are rare.
Uncle Kenny - All this stuff might be black and white, but its because they are generalities based on observable phenomena. There are, of course, always exceptions, even if they are rare.
D
Deleted member
Guest
This hard?Gamer4Fire said:
Indigo4
Smash Apprentice
I don't claim to be the holiest person in the world, but I am a firm believer in Christianity. RDK, I understand that you feel a lot of the things that God does are unfair. But you must realize that, as cliched as this may sound, there is a plan. Although God is in this world, Satan is as well. And While I too agree that it is unfair that Adam and Eve ate from the tree, and that we must pay for it, you must realize that we ALL do wrong of our own free will. God is holy, and cannot be in the presence of sin. It's unfair to blame him for atrocities that take place in our life by saying "Where was God?" If God stopped all the horrible things in life from happening, he'd be interferring every second, and then we'd have no free will. 9/11 is a tragic example. God COULD have stopped the planes from crashing, he COULD have changed the minds of the terrorists, but had he, then he would have interferred. Good or bad, traumatic or trivial, if he changed everything we did, and had a hand in it all, then what would be the point of any of our actions?
As I said before, Satan is in this world too. Satan exists and feeds off of sin. God does want a personal relationship with us, or why else would he sacrafice his own son? Jesus was pure, and able to pay the price of our sins in exchange for loyal belief. God is pure as well, and cannot be with sin. If one cannot atone for the sin with the blood of Jesus, then they cannot be exposed to God. And the seperation is hell.
I am curious to why you think God wanting a personal relationship with his creations to be so odd. If you made something living, wouldn't you want to know about it? And just because you know everything about someone doesn't mean you have a relationship.
You mention you began thinking for yourself before graduating. I too, think for myself. I don't have faith in God for anyone except myself. Not for my family, friends, or anything. I do it because I want a relationship with God. Just Because I have faith doesn't mean I am incompetant.
My intention is not to preach at you or proclaim ****ation and hellfire, but merely to answer your questions. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
As I said before, Satan is in this world too. Satan exists and feeds off of sin. God does want a personal relationship with us, or why else would he sacrafice his own son? Jesus was pure, and able to pay the price of our sins in exchange for loyal belief. God is pure as well, and cannot be with sin. If one cannot atone for the sin with the blood of Jesus, then they cannot be exposed to God. And the seperation is hell.
I am curious to why you think God wanting a personal relationship with his creations to be so odd. If you made something living, wouldn't you want to know about it? And just because you know everything about someone doesn't mean you have a relationship.
You mention you began thinking for yourself before graduating. I too, think for myself. I don't have faith in God for anyone except myself. Not for my family, friends, or anything. I do it because I want a relationship with God. Just Because I have faith doesn't mean I am incompetant.
My intention is not to preach at you or proclaim ****ation and hellfire, but merely to answer your questions. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
Banana_Dragon
Smash Journeyman
Ah, the good old debate on the existence of God.
How can anyone believe in God?
Well, people generally like to know everything. It makes them seem "better" and more significant in relation to other people. We are a race that worships knowledge and there is nothing wrong with that, because searching for knowledge makes our lives interesting.
Of course, people are also a lazy race. I mean, it's always more fun to get the most out of something using minimal effort.
So, people want to know everything as fast as possible. Hence when people "seem" to have gotten a perfectly logical and acceptable answer to something, they like to think they know the answer.
Knowledge acquired by minimal effort.
The fact that you can't disprove them only strengthens them in their belief that they hold the knowledge.
This is, how I think, it comes to be that people can perfectly believe in God and assume that they're right. Maybe they are, but as far as I know, there's proof for neither side.
I can not disprove the existence of God, none of us can. I can however give you all some things to think about.
For example, is anyone here familiar with the concept of Russell's Teapot?
-=-The following is copy-pasted from Wikipedia-=-
If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
-=-End of copy-paste-=-
Also. Why is it that religions always seem to originate from one part in the world and one part in the world only?
There has never been any historical evidence of the same religion starting to be preached in, for example, Greece and at the same time in, for example, South America.
I would think that if God really exists you would see more evidence (or at least what could somewhat be regarded as evidence) more equally scattered around the Earth (as well as the rest of the universe)
The fact that Christianity (as well Islam, Hinduism and others) seem to always originate from only one place/person on only one planet in this entire universe makes me more inclined to not believe in the existence of the christian God.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't wonder about God's existence or have faith in it. I just like to make people think
How can anyone believe in God?
Well, people generally like to know everything. It makes them seem "better" and more significant in relation to other people. We are a race that worships knowledge and there is nothing wrong with that, because searching for knowledge makes our lives interesting.
Of course, people are also a lazy race. I mean, it's always more fun to get the most out of something using minimal effort.
So, people want to know everything as fast as possible. Hence when people "seem" to have gotten a perfectly logical and acceptable answer to something, they like to think they know the answer.
Knowledge acquired by minimal effort.
The fact that you can't disprove them only strengthens them in their belief that they hold the knowledge.
This is, how I think, it comes to be that people can perfectly believe in God and assume that they're right. Maybe they are, but as far as I know, there's proof for neither side.
I can not disprove the existence of God, none of us can. I can however give you all some things to think about.
For example, is anyone here familiar with the concept of Russell's Teapot?
-=-The following is copy-pasted from Wikipedia-=-
If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
-=-End of copy-paste-=-
Also. Why is it that religions always seem to originate from one part in the world and one part in the world only?
There has never been any historical evidence of the same religion starting to be preached in, for example, Greece and at the same time in, for example, South America.
I would think that if God really exists you would see more evidence (or at least what could somewhat be regarded as evidence) more equally scattered around the Earth (as well as the rest of the universe)
The fact that Christianity (as well Islam, Hinduism and others) seem to always originate from only one place/person on only one planet in this entire universe makes me more inclined to not believe in the existence of the christian God.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't wonder about God's existence or have faith in it. I just like to make people think
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
aww, this thread is back on track
but seriously, before i see one more god thread somebody read the god dam bible
Adam slept with God's gf and he's pissed now
but seriously, before i see one more god thread somebody read the god dam bible
Adam slept with God's gf and he's pissed now
cF=)
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,909
Believing in a God, or a supreme deity, is normal. It acts as a chemical in your brain to make you live longer, less stressed, and free from the painful and horrible look of death ahead of the road. As strange as it seems, we, rational beings, have evolved and invented a God (irrational) because our complex understanding of the universe pushed our logic further than we could imagine, and to avoid the endless and complicated debate that is 'where do we come from', we decided to put an alpha to life. This beginning is God.
[I had sources for this, but they were in french]
I'm agnostic/atheist depending on the day, but I frown upon anything related to christianity because it's bothering to see people pushing away their current life for a promised one, a life after a life. I know I exist; it doesn't matter if I'm real or not, in this world or not, I live because I'm thinking right now. So why should I throw away all the pleasures I could seek, all the experiences I could live, all the scientifical advancements man profit from, solely for the purpose of an unlikely, future existence? I see this as trashing your life, the one you're sure of.
[I had sources for this, but they were in french]
I'm agnostic/atheist depending on the day, but I frown upon anything related to christianity because it's bothering to see people pushing away their current life for a promised one, a life after a life. I know I exist; it doesn't matter if I'm real or not, in this world or not, I live because I'm thinking right now. So why should I throw away all the pleasures I could seek, all the experiences I could live, all the scientifical advancements man profit from, solely for the purpose of an unlikely, future existence? I see this as trashing your life, the one you're sure of.
You're right, it is cliche. And contradictory. I already called this reasoning out to be Doublethink. You realize that your beliefs are contradictory but choose to ignore it. Rather than trying to find truth that actually makes sense, you assume that you're right first and then try to justify it later.Indigo4 said:
The entire concept of an all powerful god not and the existence of a devil doesn't make sense on any level. If god chooses not to get rid of satan, then he is not perfectly benevolent. If god is unable to get rid of satan, then he is not omnipotent.
LOLF&V said:
But by allowing Satan to exist, he in fact is perfectly benevolent. God didn't create us to not think, the very existence of satan gives humans a choice between Him and something else.
Why do people believe in God though?
Pick your reason.
You are a part of the group people, if you believe in God, you answer your question.
If you think about it on many levels it actually makes more sense to believe than not to.
If atheism is correct, than what does anyone who has a religion have to fear?
Uh....nothing?
Whereas atheism is in big trouble if there is in fact a God. (I'm assuming the Christian God, since that what this topic was started on)
even if you want to get down to it, the way I see it is, God knows everything, therefore He probably knows whats best for me, and if He's given me instructions on how I can live better, why on earth would I refuse them? I know I screw things up. I'm human.
..whatever.
Why do people believe in God though?
Pick your reason.
You are a part of the group people, if you believe in God, you answer your question.
If you think about it on many levels it actually makes more sense to believe than not to.
If atheism is correct, than what does anyone who has a religion have to fear?
Uh....nothing?
Whereas atheism is in big trouble if there is in fact a God. (I'm assuming the Christian God, since that what this topic was started on)
even if you want to get down to it, the way I see it is, God knows everything, therefore He probably knows whats best for me, and if He's given me instructions on how I can live better, why on earth would I refuse them? I know I screw things up. I'm human.
..whatever.
So you're saying that Satan's not such a bad guy after all? He provides a valuable service?
This is Pascal's Wager. It does nothing to strengthen your argument (or lack there-of) and only serves to demonstrate that you're willing to persist with your beliefs even if they aren't true. As opposed to trying to find the real truth.
You're using the same argument as Indigo. "God has a plan" By using this argument you accept that your beliefs don't make sense, but you're choosing to ignore that fact.
You can throw all your logic at me, but it doesn't apply here.
Religion isn't logical. The idea behind faith completely blows that out of the water.
The question posed was "Why do people believe in God" If you have issues with my answers aside from logic, I'd love to hear them, but the fact remains that a LOT of people believe in God, and these are potential answers for why they do.
You're twisting my words as far as satan goes though.
Saying something exists and saying it's useful or "good" are two different things.
But it does almost show that we have a choice. (although I kinda think Free Will is bunk)
And you are getting my idea wrong. I don't accept that my beliefs don't make sense, but I accept the fact that I am a human and am incapable of understanding everything. Can you understand eternity? I can't, and you certainly can't and if you say you can you're lying. The idea of eternity is in our heads though.
Kind of a paradox.
My basic belief system I understand.
God I do not understand. But what I know about Him, it's ok that I don't understand every aspect of His character
Religion isn't logical. The idea behind faith completely blows that out of the water.
The question posed was "Why do people believe in God" If you have issues with my answers aside from logic, I'd love to hear them, but the fact remains that a LOT of people believe in God, and these are potential answers for why they do.
You're twisting my words as far as satan goes though.
Saying something exists and saying it's useful or "good" are two different things.
But it does almost show that we have a choice. (although I kinda think Free Will is bunk)
And you are getting my idea wrong. I don't accept that my beliefs don't make sense, but I accept the fact that I am a human and am incapable of understanding everything. Can you understand eternity? I can't, and you certainly can't and if you say you can you're lying. The idea of eternity is in our heads though.
Kind of a paradox.
My basic belief system I understand.
God I do not understand. But what I know about Him, it's ok that I don't understand every aspect of His character
Good. We're in agreement then.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I feel sorry for people who can't find a way to believe in something not proven by science.
Oh, no. Not at all. You misunderstand science fundamentally.
Science can never prove anything. A theory can never be proven, only disproven. The whole crux of science is that we can never know anything for certain. We use logic, reason, and evidence to form our beliefs. (Yes, beliefs) When a theory is shown to be contradictory (hence incorrect) it is thrown out and another is created.
So I have beliefs in a great many things that are not proven, because they can never be. Mathematics is a perfect example. Math itself is built upon several unprovable axioms. It is perfectly possible that all of mathematics is just simply wrong. However we believe that it is not wrong, because that's what the evidence indicates. After thousands of years studying math, it has never failed.
Science can never prove anything. A theory can never be proven, only disproven. The whole crux of science is that we can never know anything for certain. We use logic, reason, and evidence to form our beliefs. (Yes, beliefs) When a theory is shown to be contradictory (hence incorrect) it is thrown out and another is created.
So I have beliefs in a great many things that are not proven, because they can never be. Mathematics is a perfect example. Math itself is built upon several unprovable axioms. It is perfectly possible that all of mathematics is just simply wrong. However we believe that it is not wrong, because that's what the evidence indicates. After thousands of years studying math, it has never failed.
?
I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say. The difference between science and philosophy is that a scientific theory can be disproven, while a philosophical theory cannot. Since no theory can ever be proven correct, that means a philosophical theory cannot be proven right nor wrong, which makes it utterly useless. Fun to think about sometimes, but ultimately without purpose.
The inverted spectrum theory is really cool, and very fun to play with. Same thing goes for theories about Matrix like worlds. (allegory of the cave) The problem with them is that they (by design) can never be proven wrong, and consequently serve no real purpose.
Religion invariably puts itself (unwisely) in a position where it cannot be proven wrong. But in doing so, it demotes itself to the realm of meaningless philosophy. Give me a consistent religious theory that could conceivably be proven wrong, and then we'll have a debate.
I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say. The difference between science and philosophy is that a scientific theory can be disproven, while a philosophical theory cannot. Since no theory can ever be proven correct, that means a philosophical theory cannot be proven right nor wrong, which makes it utterly useless. Fun to think about sometimes, but ultimately without purpose.
The inverted spectrum theory is really cool, and very fun to play with. Same thing goes for theories about Matrix like worlds. (allegory of the cave) The problem with them is that they (by design) can never be proven wrong, and consequently serve no real purpose.
Religion invariably puts itself (unwisely) in a position where it cannot be proven wrong. But in doing so, it demotes itself to the realm of meaningless philosophy. Give me a consistent religious theory that could conceivably be proven wrong, and then we'll have a debate.
I know someone posted something to this effect on the previous page, but this topic has exploded with discussion and I'm too lazy to go reference it. This is from God Is Imaginary:
Also, I loved the way you said this, Alt:
I literally could not have put it better myself. These are my exact views on science, and it's a great response to those who think that atheists view current science as irrefutable law.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I don't think atheists view current science as anything - I just think they're ignorant.
Awww, words hurt, DeL. Words hurt.
Banana_Dragon
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, RDK, exactly what I was getting at with the Russell's Teapot example.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who sees the point in that.
I don't remember who said this but there is a quote that goes as following:
"Philosophy is questions without answers. Religion is answers without questions."
Also (Yeah I'm kinda jumping to different parts of the subject here), Pythag (no offense to you, just using you as an example) you say that it makes sense to believe because you can't not benefit from it. I disagree...
What if, for example, Islam is correct and Christianity isn't? Well then believing in the christian God wouldn't really save you either, now would it? Or what if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Pink Unicorn happens to be correct? And how would anyone know which religion is right while the number of religions to believe in equals the number of religions that man can make up? This pretty much makes your point useless (again, no offense intended though)...
It's too bad we haven't been able to come in contact with civilizations from other planets yet. If we ever make contact with aliens and they preach the bible too and say Christ died for their sins... Then I'll gladly convert. Until then, I like to think I simply can't know what's "out there" and accept it and focus on the life I'm living right now, not a potential afterlife.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who sees the point in that.
I don't remember who said this but there is a quote that goes as following:
"Philosophy is questions without answers. Religion is answers without questions."
Also (Yeah I'm kinda jumping to different parts of the subject here), Pythag (no offense to you, just using you as an example) you say that it makes sense to believe because you can't not benefit from it. I disagree...
What if, for example, Islam is correct and Christianity isn't? Well then believing in the christian God wouldn't really save you either, now would it? Or what if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Pink Unicorn happens to be correct? And how would anyone know which religion is right while the number of religions to believe in equals the number of religions that man can make up? This pretty much makes your point useless (again, no offense intended though)...
It's too bad we haven't been able to come in contact with civilizations from other planets yet. If we ever make contact with aliens and they preach the bible too and say Christ died for their sins... Then I'll gladly convert. Until then, I like to think I simply can't know what's "out there" and accept it and focus on the life I'm living right now, not a potential afterlife.
Banana_Dragon
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, RDK, exactly what I was getting at with the Russell's Teapot example.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who sees the point in that.
I don't remember who said this but there is a quote that goes as following:
"Philosophy is questions without answers. Religion is answers without questions."
Also (Yeah I'm kinda jumping to different parts of the subject here), Pythag (no offense to you, just using you as an example) you say that it makes sense to believe because you can't not benefit from it. I disagree...
What if, for example, Islam is correct and Christianity isn't? Well then believing in the christian God wouldn't really save you either, now would it? Or what if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Pink Unicorn happens to be correct? And how would anyone know which religion is right while the number of religions to believe in equals the number of religions that man can make up? This pretty much makes your point useless (again, no offense intended though)...
It's too bad we haven't been able to come in contact with civilizations from other planets yet. If we ever make contact with aliens and they preach the bible too and say Christ died for their sins... Then I'll gladly convert. Until then, I like to think I simply can't know what's "out there" and accept it and focus on the life I'm living right now, not a potential afterlife.
EDIT: I kept refreshing the page over and over up to 20 times and my post did not show. Then when I sent it again, it showed up twice... Sorry for double posting but my browser simply did not show my first post.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who sees the point in that.
I don't remember who said this but there is a quote that goes as following:
"Philosophy is questions without answers. Religion is answers without questions."
Also (Yeah I'm kinda jumping to different parts of the subject here), Pythag (no offense to you, just using you as an example) you say that it makes sense to believe because you can't not benefit from it. I disagree...
What if, for example, Islam is correct and Christianity isn't? Well then believing in the christian God wouldn't really save you either, now would it? Or what if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Pink Unicorn happens to be correct? And how would anyone know which religion is right while the number of religions to believe in equals the number of religions that man can make up? This pretty much makes your point useless (again, no offense intended though)...
It's too bad we haven't been able to come in contact with civilizations from other planets yet. If we ever make contact with aliens and they preach the bible too and say Christ died for their sins... Then I'll gladly convert. Until then, I like to think I simply can't know what's "out there" and accept it and focus on the life I'm living right now, not a potential afterlife.
EDIT: I kept refreshing the page over and over up to 20 times and my post did not show. Then when I sent it again, it showed up twice... Sorry for double posting but my browser simply did not show my first post.
as far as I know (and I don't claim to know massive amounts of other religions, but I'm not a complete idiot)
Christianity is the only religion that really doesn't offer a second chance.
I understand what you're trying to say, but I have no doubts that my faith is correct.
I was (once again) offering answers as to why people believe in God.
Fire insurance would be one reason.
Christianity is the only religion that really doesn't offer a second chance.
I understand what you're trying to say, but I have no doubts that my faith is correct.
I was (once again) offering answers as to why people believe in God.
Fire insurance would be one reason.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Apparently, so do .50 Cal Rifles -_-''
So I have struck a chord, then! You're an atheist, who knew.
I have a personal issue with atheism. Aside from the fact that it seems to be the "cool" thing to do, for some reason when I hear someone is an atheist I get a complete paradigm shift on that person.
Maybe not to that degree, but..
It's funny. Alt, how can you call yourself an atheist if you were saying you can never prove a theory?
Last time I checked, atheism was a theory. If that can't be proved, and it likely never will, wouldn't the scientist in you logically accept agnosticism?
I've probably quoted this a million times, but here it is once again.
I don't find theists as or nearly as ignorant. Sure, some blind faith you find in theists might be staggeringly ignorant, but somehow it feels different. You may think this is a double standard.Socrates said:
For theists who simply believe in a higher power, there are an infinite amount of forms that higher power could be. I also find it extremely arrogant of atheists to assume that we are the be all and end all.
Atheists limit themselves.
Code:
Let atheism = A, let theism = B
A = 0, B is an element of all reals, such that B >= 1.No, no. I never proposed that I know theism to be wrong. I believe it to be. Atheism is a theory, one that I happen to believe in. Why? Because I find it to be most consistent with the evidence given. I would never go so far as to say that I know. You're putting words in my mouth. (or keyboard, as it would be)
Agnosticism makes most sense, because the entire topic is philosophical rather than scientific. (See previous post for the distinction) But I usually go one step further in thinking (not knowing) that there isn't any sort of god. (At least not the judeo christian god)
Agnosticism makes most sense, because the entire topic is philosophical rather than scientific. (See previous post for the distinction) But I usually go one step further in thinking (not knowing) that there isn't any sort of god. (At least not the judeo christian god)
You're right, it is. Why do so many christians have contempt for anyone who believes differently than they do? I certainly don't hold grudges due to people's beliefs. That's one of the major thing that drove me from religion in general when I was little. (I grew up in a catholic family, went to catholic school, etc...) My best friend here in Az is a devout catholic. (we have some great conversations!)DeLoRtEd1 said:
Jeremy Feifer
Jeremy Feifer
OmG! Iv been waiting on a topic like this forever! ^_^'
Pm me and Ill tell ya everything and why things are the way they are.
Indigo4
Smash Apprentice
First of all, Pythag, while I agree with much of what you say, religion IS logical. The thought of logical design being put into the things that exist on this planet makes just as much sense, if not more, than some scientific theories. I mean, honestly, the big bang? So much order from so much chaos? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you had a highly compressed ball of cement which exploded, would you expect it to form a sidewalk after it did? No. You would have to pave the sidewalk yourself, designing it yourself. Otherwise, all you'll have is a mess. The mere impressive power of the human mind is reason enough to believe that there is intelligent design behind it all.
AltF4, I don't quite understand what you mean when you say I am using "Doublethink." I think I explained myself quite clearly. God does not interfere with free will, but merely steers us in the right direction. Whether or not we choose to listen is our choice. Think of someone you looked up to in your life. Did they make every decision for you? Or merely offer advice and let you learn from the choice you make. If God interfered, where would the line be drawn? He would control every aspect of our life.
It is not that God is unable to get rid of Satan, it is that Satan is here just like all the people that are here who are evil. The only difference is that he exists on a different plane. Does God smite evil people left and right? No. They only fell because of the trap they put themselves in. And even if Satan and his minions were destroyed, would that make this world perfect? No. People are flawed, and we all sin. Some temptation would be gone, but some would still remain because of the flaws of mankind. The devil may be the cause of evil, but because of his existance and the mistakes of humankind, the wheels are already in motion. Sin will continue even if he doesn't.
As for other civilizations on other planets, I too have pondered their need for a savior. But then I realized something: Adam and Eve's mistake caused sin in humans. But who is to say other civilizations messed up, and even needed a savior? There may indeed be a perfect society out there, void of evil.
So please don't twist my words and say I simply turn a blind eye to the "flaws" in my ideals. Much like science, religion is not fact, simply a theroy. And although it may seem like unjustifiable to some, there is clearly a reason it exists. People have a natural chemistry to worship a higher being, whether it be a Sun God, a Moon God, or a man who claims he is the Son of God. The inherant desire to worship suggests to me that there are mystic forces at work.
AltF4, I don't quite understand what you mean when you say I am using "Doublethink." I think I explained myself quite clearly. God does not interfere with free will, but merely steers us in the right direction. Whether or not we choose to listen is our choice. Think of someone you looked up to in your life. Did they make every decision for you? Or merely offer advice and let you learn from the choice you make. If God interfered, where would the line be drawn? He would control every aspect of our life.
It is not that God is unable to get rid of Satan, it is that Satan is here just like all the people that are here who are evil. The only difference is that he exists on a different plane. Does God smite evil people left and right? No. They only fell because of the trap they put themselves in. And even if Satan and his minions were destroyed, would that make this world perfect? No. People are flawed, and we all sin. Some temptation would be gone, but some would still remain because of the flaws of mankind. The devil may be the cause of evil, but because of his existance and the mistakes of humankind, the wheels are already in motion. Sin will continue even if he doesn't.
As for other civilizations on other planets, I too have pondered their need for a savior. But then I realized something: Adam and Eve's mistake caused sin in humans. But who is to say other civilizations messed up, and even needed a savior? There may indeed be a perfect society out there, void of evil.
So please don't twist my words and say I simply turn a blind eye to the "flaws" in my ideals. Much like science, religion is not fact, simply a theroy. And although it may seem like unjustifiable to some, there is clearly a reason it exists. People have a natural chemistry to worship a higher being, whether it be a Sun God, a Moon God, or a man who claims he is the Son of God. The inherant desire to worship suggests to me that there are mystic forces at work.
D
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...who...are you?
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
dito
and indingo that cement thing was funny
of course, to disprove your theory and to slightly support my theory i will now explode balls of cements multiple times until one of them does indeed form a sidewalk
the truth is, without a higher power most people feel forsaken or empty, so they simply can't stop believing
edit: delorted you're tall
and indingo that cement thing was funny
of course, to disprove your theory and to slightly support my theory i will now explode balls of cements multiple times until one of them does indeed form a sidewalk
the truth is, without a higher power most people feel forsaken or empty, so they simply can't stop believing
edit: delorted you're tall
Indigo I think you are misunderstanding what I say when I said that religion is illogical.
Faith makes religion illogical.
I was in no way defending or calling some scientific theories logical. That's a different argument altogether
Faith makes religion illogical.
I was in no way defending or calling some scientific theories logical. That's a different argument altogether
0_<
Um, no, I'm not going to PM you and have you explain "everything and why things are the way they are". If you want to spout off ultimate knowledge, please do so here.
cF=)
Smash Lord
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It doesn't make sense because you said so? That's what I see, and we jump back into the whole argumentation again when you probably don't even have any concrete knowledge or understanding of what happened micro seconds after the big bang all up to today. Astrophysicists back up their theories with observations, calculations, and you think it's wise to reject completely their work (because you haven't even pointed out any flaws out of it) by saying "I'm too narrow-minded to see past my nose and the things I believe in"? What about gravity? What about the computer you're typing on as we speak, the product of science?
Last time I checked, it's not logical that every animals on Earth was at a walking distance from Noah's ark.
Atheism is not a theory. It is a lack of belief. There is no evidence or hypothesis behind it.
D
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You're kidding, right?
Also, while we're on the topic of Noah's Ark, a problem I have with the story:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
Try checking out this web page. It poses many questions about how feasible Noah's Ark was, and about the flood itself and the effects it had on the Earth.
It addresses some things like how did Noah get two samples of every single animal on the ark? What did they do about animal waste, and feeding animals with special diets? The food that they needed to feed each and every animal must have been a pretty enormous stockpile. Not to mention that if they only took juvenile animals to preserve space, who would teach these animals proper behavior for survival if they didn't have parents present?
The article has quite a bit of information.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
Try checking out this web page. It poses many questions about how feasible Noah's Ark was, and about the flood itself and the effects it had on the Earth.
It addresses some things like how did Noah get two samples of every single animal on the ark? What did they do about animal waste, and feeding animals with special diets? The food that they needed to feed each and every animal must have been a pretty enormous stockpile. Not to mention that if they only took juvenile animals to preserve space, who would teach these animals proper behavior for survival if they didn't have parents present?
The article has quite a bit of information.
Banana_Dragon
Smash Journeyman
Indigo4, Nice argument on the other civilisations there... Actually it really made sense and would be logical if God indeed happens to exist.
The compressed ball of cement exploding though... That's a bit flawed.
Are you familiar with the Butterfly Effect?
It is something that was discovered when making computer models to predict the weather around the world.
Even the smallest change in wind or temperature could end up having massive effects on somewhere completely else.
It's been proven that the slight change of wind caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in, say, Hong Kong can cause a hurricane, for example, somewhere in America.
The point is, yes, order can form in the midst of chaos. Even something as stupid as the "infinite monkey theory" proves this. (Suppose a monkey were to bang on a keyboard for an infinite amount of time. In that infinite amount of time he is surely to type up any comprehensive text, including the complete works of William Shakespeare)
Order 'can' form in the midst of chaos, intelligent design is not a necessity for this. Not saying it isn't possible, but saying it isn't needed.
The compressed ball of cement exploding though... That's a bit flawed.
Are you familiar with the Butterfly Effect?
It is something that was discovered when making computer models to predict the weather around the world.
Even the smallest change in wind or temperature could end up having massive effects on somewhere completely else.
It's been proven that the slight change of wind caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in, say, Hong Kong can cause a hurricane, for example, somewhere in America.
The point is, yes, order can form in the midst of chaos. Even something as stupid as the "infinite monkey theory" proves this. (Suppose a monkey were to bang on a keyboard for an infinite amount of time. In that infinite amount of time he is surely to type up any comprehensive text, including the complete works of William Shakespeare)
Order 'can' form in the midst of chaos, intelligent design is not a necessity for this. Not saying it isn't possible, but saying it isn't needed.
Yea, for the record: The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a law, it's a principle. Entropy has the tendency to increase in a closed system over time. But this can be violated.
People often try to use the 2nd law of thermodynamics against proponents of the Big Bang, but really it just shows that they don't understand physics at all.
People often try to use the 2nd law of thermodynamics against proponents of the Big Bang, but really it just shows that they don't understand physics at all.
I think you're referring to chaos theory, about the weather patterns.
Consider a pool table. Say you hit the cue ball and ricochet it off the side of the table. You can't say, at any point, which way the cue ball is going to bounce off of the side, and at what trajectory due to minor imperfections in the pool table and, to a lesser extent, the cue ball itself.
Another example is the water drop experiment. Ever see Jurassic Park?
Wow! Odd that you say that, because I just heard a conversation on the Bob Dutko show, a popular Christian radio talk-show, about how red-shifts don't lend any weight to the anti-creation viewpoint, and how the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics disproves evolution.
I immediately recognized that the "professor" Dutko had on his show had no idea what he was talking about, as he was taking the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics completely out of concept, and applying it to evolution and hereditary genetics without first looking at other examples, like entropy, as Alt mentioned above.
Banana_Dragon
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, Chaos Theory was indeed what I was trying to get at... It's late over here 
And... using the 2nd law of thermodynamics against evolution?... Sorry for maybe going a little off-topic here but I'm a little curious... How? O.o
And... using the 2nd law of thermodynamics against evolution?... Sorry for maybe going a little off-topic here but I'm a little curious... How? O.o
Banana_Dragon:
Well, some people try to use an argument invariably similar to this: "The second law of thermodynamics states that disorder can only increase, never decrease. Evolution proposes that humans (highly ordered beings) evolved from mush on a warm planet (highly disordered). This violates the 2nd law."
But they're leaving some important details. First, the law says that the disorder in a closed system never decreases. The earth is not a closed system.
Second, like I mentioned before, the second law is a principle. A general tendency, but it can be broken.
Well, some people try to use an argument invariably similar to this: "The second law of thermodynamics states that disorder can only increase, never decrease. Evolution proposes that humans (highly ordered beings) evolved from mush on a warm planet (highly disordered). This violates the 2nd law."
But they're leaving some important details. First, the law says that the disorder in a closed system never decreases. The earth is not a closed system.
Second, like I mentioned before, the second law is a principle. A general tendency, but it can be broken.
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