How Can Anyone Believe in God?

[Arturito_Burrito]

Do you have data to support this?


you're looking at this way to literal.

My whole argument points that if religion wasn't there it would happen anyway, people do good if they're good people people do bad if they're bad people. Religion barely has an effect, because if it did you wouldn't have religi-nuts flying planes into towers would you?

I also mentioned that because atheists don't commit mass genocide in the name of atheism. However you'll see a religious person do that.

http://www.zambian.com/bethel/orphanage-ministry-resources-online/html/charity-statistics.html

It's actually what they made not donated so I was wrong on that part I'll look for what they donate tomorrow ( probably a lot the catholic church collects 2 pots during mass one for the poor and one to pay for expenses and from what I've seen the one for the poor generally gets more. I'm sure other churches do that). even so bill gates doesn't have the ability to to outshine churches in raising money.

I remember reading somewhere that Hitler used science to prove Germans being better than Jews and religion doesn't tell you to kill mentally ******** people maybe from other religions but not because they have STDs or other incurable illness but science might.

If religion wasn't there I do believe that most people would only care for them selfs and living. After all if you don't get caught and theres no hell to punish you you get off Scott free with what ever you do. Religion is a law that keeps humans from chaos if you want to look at it with reason.

 

[AIDS]

Jesus Christ is God, and in church i see people healed, i have seen blind people healed, and the only way to not believe in God, is to have never opened your heart to him. God has predicted everything, and when you open up and have faith, you will see more of his promises and Glory. God has kept every promise he has made, and there are many in the bible, and I ask who here says any reason why not to believe in God, and what could they use against it.

 

[Aesir]

I remember reading somewhere that Hitler used science to prove Germans being better than Jews and religion doesn't tell you to kill mentally ******** people maybe from other religions but not because they have STDs or other incurable illness but science might.

Again not in the name of science, I'm pretty sure if Hitler had published that paper to be reviewed by peers it would have been ripped apart.

Science doesn't tell you to kill them. Science isn't an ideology so how can science dictate a claim such as "kill the handicapped."

If religion wasn't there I do believe that most people would only care for them selfs and living. After all if you don't get caught and theres no hell to punish you you get off Scott free with what ever you do. Religion is a law that keeps humans from chaos if you want to look at it with reason.

Tell that to the Greeks their deities weren't exactly very moralistic deities. However this didn't stop them from achieving moral standards. Though you can argue their treatment of woman was horrible, but it was ancient times if you weren't a spartan or a Celt you were treated like lower then dirt.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Jesus Christ is God, and in church i see people healed, i have seen blind people healed, and the only way to not believe in God, is to have never opened your heart to him. God has predicted everything, and when you open up and have faith, you will see more of his promises and Glory.

MILLIONS of people saw people like Peter Popoff "heal" people, and we all know how that turned out. Seems like "seeing people healed" doesn't actually prove anything!

 

[lonejedi]

Again not in the name of science, I'm pretty sure if Hitler had published that paper to be reviewed by peers it would have been ripped apart.

Science doesn't tell you to kill them. Science isn't an ideology so how can science dictate a claim such as "kill the handicapped."

Religion doesn't tell them to kill either. Evil People use Religion. No where in the Bible will you find it that God told the christians to go around killing the Jews because they didn't believe in Jesus, quite the contrary.

And what about Stalin?
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense"
He killed many more than Hitler ever did. So in theory, you could say that Athiests do more bad then good.

How many Killers, rapists and theives were religious prior to being caught?

There are a good amount of killers who were religious prior to being caught. John Bodkin Adams was raised in a heavily religious household and was rather religious himself.
A doctor as well who more a less killed people by prescribing them faulty medications. usually non-believers were his victims

These people are in no way Christians. Let me clarify something for you, you are not a Christian if you go around killing people. I usually don't use scripture in a debate, but since we're talking about whether Christianity is the root of this, I will. "Faith without works is dead" You can claim you believe in something, but if you are doing works that are AGAINST THE BIBLE, and show no signs of repentance, you are clearly not a Christian.

 

[AIDS]

MILLIONS of people saw people like Peter Popoff "heal" people, and we all know how that turned out. Seems like "seeing people healed" doesn't actually prove anything!

Cause some people meglect the trueth, some people don't have faith for more then a week, and are blinded to gods glory, just as you are now. Some people expect God to prove himself, and pray for him to do something and if he does, they will choose to believe in him, and it happens, and they still don't. That is poor faith! but God is so real, but people need to have faith, and go with an open heart, and know what Jesus did for you on that cross, then you will truely see Gods Glory, undeservingly ofcourse.

I find it odd that some people see people being healed, after a phew months after i came to god, i witnessed a blind women healed in my church. but this does not satisfy most, why is that? God does not need us, we need him. So why does he call and pick us out? Because of his love, and he wants us to be used, he will use your life if you let him in, he has power to do all things, if he wanted he could just make us all worshippers right now, but he gives us oppertunity to do work in his name.in the book of acts it tells a story where 3000 came to christ all in one day, and the bible says "Later on the got to see miracles through Peter and John". Giving you life for the miracles is not what we should do, but God has a lot of great promises in the bible, that are for everyone here on earth, all we need to do is accept him in our life.

But don't be like those who expect god to come and die again for you, what he has already done is more then we deserve, and he offers us happyness. If you feel you are happy where you stand, let me tell you being in the trueth is way better. Jesus Christ is God, and he offers you a chance, I personally would advise you to accept.

 

[EC_Joey]

Do you have to be accepted by the Christian community in order to be considered a Christian? No, you only have to share the same beliefs in order to be a Christian. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, if they consider themselves to be followers of Christianity, and that their actions don't violate their beliefs, they are still Christians. Even if the Pope excommunicates someone, that doesn't magically purge someone's beliefs, it only declares that person to be separate from the Christian community.

As for people who commit crimes, Christians are just as likely or possibly even more likely than atheists or agnostics to do so. I found this article particularly interesting on the subject: Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies. It was published in 2005 by a Journal of Religion and Society affiliated with Creighton University. In it, you can find some interesting tidbits.

"With surveys showing a strong majority from conservative to liberal believing that religion is beneficial for society and for individuals, many Americans agree that their church-going nation is an exceptional, God blessed, “shining city on the hill” that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly skeptical world. But in the other developed democracies religiosity continues to decline precipitously and avowed atheists often win high office, even as clergies warn about adverse societal consequences if a revival of creator belief does not occur (Reid, 2001)."

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so."

"There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses."

This exhaustive study attempted to find a correlation between theistic belief and societal ills, and it appears that there is such a correlation, encompassing not just the United States but plenty of other developed countries as well. I have seen no evidence that Christian beliefs result in a lower rate of socially unacceptable behavior. This is simply assumed because of the principles that Christianity advocates, and the image that the Church presents of itself to the public.

 

[BFDD]

God rewards you for being as blindly faithful and obedient as you can be and punishes anyone who doesn't have a strong faith. Sounds like a dictator to me.

So what if Jesus died on the cross? He just went up to heaven to join dear old dad. Not that he actually needed to die, not sure why god needed to send his only son to his death to take our sins. He could have just forgiven them without letting his kid die, apparently he isn't as forgiving as people claim. If he really was as forgiving as people claim, it wouldn't matter if you believed in him or Jesus, anyone who lived a life trying to be a good person would get into heaven, even those that refuse to believe. The way it is now, a Christian who murders someone can get into heaven, but no matter what kind of life I live I can't get in unless I reject reason.

 

[EC_Joey]

@ AIDS:
Pushing your beliefs on others doesn't help contribute to this discussion. Go preach elsewhere.

 

[Aesir]

Religion doesn't tell them to kill either. Evil People use Religion. No where in the Bible will you find it that God told the christians to go around killing the Jews because they didn't believe in Jesus, quite the contrary.

Sorry but Christians need to accept the OT.

He clearly endorses murder in the bible, the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus are a testament to that.

And what about Stalin?
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense"
He killed many more than Hitler ever did. So in theory, you could say that Atheists do more bad then good.

Again his views were very dogmatic, he never killed in the name of atheism. His views were also deeply rooted into Marxism, he had an overwhelming detest for religion and went as far as persecuting the religious. But he never killed in the name of atheism, but killing in the name of god is a common practice inquisition, crusades, witch trials. These all gave the persecuters motive, rid the land of the vile and corrupt.

These people are in no way Christians. Let me clarify something for you, you are not a Christian if you go around killing people. I usually don't use scripture in a debate, but since we're talking about whether Christianity is the root of this, I will. "Faith without works is dead" You can claim you believe in something, but if you are doing works that are AGAINST THE BIBLE, and show no signs of repentance, you are clearly not a Christian.

Again just because you're not accepted as a Christian, in the Christian community does not mean you're not a Christian that's a cop out. Killing in the name of god is clearly a motive for them.

 

[AltF4]

Has this thread really degenerated into "Who's killed more people? Theists or atheists?"

1) How inane.

2) AIDS: Get out of here with your preaching. If you don't have anything logical to say, don't say it at all. If these "miracles" of yours truly did happen, then you should have no problem with providing explicit and clear proof of it, yes? Oh, and use a god **** spell checker.

3) Jedi: Are you really trying to say that anyone who has killed someone is not christian? That argument works both ways, you know. Then the 9/11 hijackers weren't Muslim, and all those Nazi "scientists" weren't scientists. See how easy it is to avoid blame!

 

[AIDS]

I still see no reason that God is not real, it is just doubt, please justify what could ever prove him, or his word false.

God rewards you for being as blindly faithful and obedient as you can be and punishes anyone who doesn't have a strong faith. Sounds like a dictator to me.

So what if Jesus died on the cross? He just went up to heaven to join dear old dad. Not that he actually needed to die, not sure why god needed to send his only son to his death to take our sins. He could have just forgiven them without letting his kid die, apparently he isn't as forgiving as people claim. If he really was as forgiving as people claim, it wouldn't matter if you believed in him or Jesus, anyone who lived a life trying to be a good person would get into heaven, even those that refuse to believe. The way it is now, a Christian who murders someone can get into heaven, but no matter what kind of life I live I can't get in unless I reject reason.

it is not litterally his dad, as we call him Father in ehaven, in that sence he is the father, and to be forgiven from sin someone pure must die. In the olden says they used lambs, but as Jesus Christ(god in the flesh) was the only one to never have sin, he was the perfect sacrifice, and i agree with your statement.

Do you have to be accepted by the Christian community in order to be considered a Christian? No, you only have to share the same beliefs in order to be a Christian. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, if they consider themselves to be followers of Christianity, and that their actions don't violate their beliefs, they are still Christians. Even if the Pope excommunicates someone, that doesn't magically purge someone's beliefs, it only declares that person to be separate from the Christian community.

As for people who commit crimes, Christians are just as likely or possibly even more likely than atheists or agnostics to do so. I found this article particularly interesting on the subject: Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies. It was published in 2005 by a Journal of Religion and Society affiliated with Creighton University. In it, you can find some interesting tidbits.

"With surveys showing a strong majority from conservative to liberal believing that religion is beneficial for society and for individuals, many Americans agree that their church-going nation is an exceptional, God blessed, “shining city on the hill” that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly skeptical world. But in the other developed democracies religiosity continues to decline precipitously and avowed atheists often win high office, even as clergies warn about adverse societal consequences if a revival of creator belief does not occur (Reid, 2001)."

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so."

"There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses."

This exhaustive study attempted to find a correlation between theistic belief and societal ills, and it appears that there is such a correlation, encompassing not just the United States but plenty of other developed countries as well. I have seen no evidence that Christian beliefs result in a lower rate of socially unacceptable behavior. This is simply assumed because of the principles that Christianity advocates, and the image that the Church presents of itself to the public.

Going to church or being in a community does not make you christian, it has to do with your life style and people who do these acts more then athiest i can say are not christian.

@ AIDS:
Pushing your beliefs on others doesn't help contribute to this discussion. Go preach elsewhere.

Pushing is not what I am doing, I have yet to see someone who opened up to christ turn around. I am shoving nothing down anyones throat, as i was Aithiest until less then a year ago, and we all have the choice, no one is pushing anyone, once we are a Christian we have others for support, but I am not shoving anything down anyones throat, I am saying things i see, that support God, but this is a very open topic due to many other people think they know "God" but I think majority of believers here are in the faith of Jesus Christ. As i have a choice, you all do, and i am not saying go now! I am sharing why i believe up to today, and looking for others who have reason to reject.

 

[Aesir]

Arguing that "theists killed more than atheists make theists evil." Was not my intention I don't see Theists as evil, I'm simply arguing that even without a belief in supernatural you can be moral and just as upstanding as a person who is religious. I'm also making reference that killing in the name of god has been a common motive that's become very apparent during the rise of the monotheistic religions.

Theists and Atheists are just as likely to kill, ****, steal. A normal moderate theist person won't be using religion to justify their actions. However a radical will and most certainly will.

 

[AltF4]

I still see no reason that God is not real, it is just doubt, please justify what could ever prove him, or his word false.

Allow me to explain something to you. Perhaps you're not familiar with how these things work. Let's take a stroll down the lane called "Burden of proof".

When someone makes a claim, they are expected to have evidence to support it. Not "proof" exactly (as the term incorrectly would seem to indicate) but at least some kind of indication that their claim is correct. If your neighbor came to you one morning and said claimed that there was a flying, invisible, pink unicorn above your head, you would rightly ask for evidence, yes? One would not just accept this claim as true on "faith". You would certainly at least look up.

Now, you come to me and tell me that an invisible man is living up in the sky and loves me. I have looked and not seen him. What evidence can you give me to indicate his existence? I have tried by myself and have found nothing. YOU believe in him, so certainly there must be a reason, yes? I would very much like for this invisible man story to be true, only I have no indication at all that it actually is. What evidence do you have?

 

[Jam Stunna]

Allow me to explain something to you. Perhaps you're not familiar with how these things work. Let's take a stroll down the lane called "Burden of proof".

When someone makes a claim, they are expected to have evidence to support it. Not "proof" exactly (as the term incorrectly would seem to indicate) but at least some kind of indication that their claim is correct. If your neighbor came to you one morning and said claimed that there was a flying, invisible, pink unicorn above your head, you would rightly ask for evidence, yes? One would not just accept this claim as true on "faith". You would certainly at least look up.

Now, you come to me and tell me that an invisible man is living up in the sky and loves me. I have looked and not seen him. What evidence can you give me to indicate his existence? I have tried by myself and have found nothing. YOU believe in him, so certainly there must be a reason, yes? I would very much like for this invisible man story to be true, only I have no indication at all that it actually is. What evidence do you have?

There's no way to prove God's existence empirically, but there's also no way to disprove it empirically either. Of course, as you stated the burden of proof is on the believer, but since you can't say absolutely that there is no God, most people will just choose to "believe".

As absurd as the idea of an omnipotent, invisible being is, that's not even my main concern. Let's assume for a moment that God exists. Is He even worthy of our praise? If a father treated a son the way God treats His children, he'd be in jail.

 

[~L~]

Has this thread really degenerated into "Who's killed more people? Theists or atheists?"

1) How inane.

2) AIDS: Get out of here with your preaching. If you don't have anything logical to say, don't say it at all. If these "miracles" of yours truly did happen, then you should have no problem with providing explicit and clear proof of it, yes? Oh, and use a god **** spell checker.

3) Jedi: Are you really trying to say that anyone who has killed someone is not christian? That argument works both ways, you know. Then the 9/11 hijackers weren't Muslim, and all those Nazi "scientists" weren't scientists. See how easy it is to avoid blame!

Your third argument is not entirely correct. If the Muslims were on a jihaad(I'm sorry I don't know how to spell that) "a holy war" then,according to their religion,they were perfectly right in blowing up the towers.

You can not sum up all religions together. Because different reiligions beliefs are so diverse. I am pretty sure the god the op was talking about was God,the God of Christianity. So I think it would be best if we stuck with that from now on.

According to Christianity,you can not kill another human being unless your in a war(meaning a war between two or more countries,) Or as Self-Defense.

A murdering Muslim maybe perfectly just according to his own religion. A murdering "Christian "is never to be accepted as a Christian.

I agree with not calling those Nazi scientists,scientists.


Also,a responce to the poster that was complaining that God wasn't "forgiving enough".

God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost(three persons,one God) Decided on haveing God the Son come down,live a perfect life,and die for a selcet number of people. It was a joint aggreement. That number,is known only to God. And it is a limited number simply because not everyone will open their heart to him. But it is offered to all.

Also if you don't believe in God here,nor do you care anything about him,why would you even want to go to Heaven?lol Why would you want to spend enternity with a Being you are indifferent to or even hate? because that is exactly what you would be doing.

Lastly,we sinned against God not God against us. He told Adam the consequences of sin,but Adam did it anyway. And even if he hadn't,and we weren't affected by sin,every single one of us have sinned ourselves at least once. So our original agreement with God is null and void.

God gave us another chance,through Jesus,and it's more than we deserve.


edit: this also is a response to Jam stunna. Also God is not a man in any sence of the word. The only similarity is He is male.

 

[AIDS]

Allow me to explain something to you. Perhaps you're not familiar with how these things work. Let's take a stroll down the lane called "Burden of proof".

When someone makes a claim, they are expected to have evidence to support it. Not "proof" exactly (as the term incorrectly would seem to indicate) but at least some kind of indication that their claim is correct. If your neighbor came to you one morning and said claimed that there was a flying, invisible, pink unicorn above your head, you would rightly ask for evidence, yes? One would not just accept this claim as true on "faith". You would certainly at least look up.

Now, you come to me and tell me that an invisible man is living up in the sky and loves me. I have looked and not seen him. What evidence can you give me to indicate his existence? I have tried by myself and have found nothing. YOU believe in him, so certainly there must be a reason, yes? I would very much like for this invisible man story to be true, only I have no indication at all that it actually is. What evidence do you have?

okay, so why do i see blind healed, crippled healed, and all these things happen before me? Why do i only see these things in a christian church? because of God

now to back it up with the bible.

Old Tesimate: as some of you may not know old testimate is before jesus was born.
New Testimate: during or after the life of jesus christ

Old Testimate Isaiah 9:6-7 says:

6 For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor,[a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 His government and its peace
will never end.
He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David
for all eternity.
The passionate commitment of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies
will make this happen!

Also in the old testimate we see a section related to another prediction of Jesus Christ

2 Samuel 7:1-17
The Lord’s Covenant Promise to David
1 When King David was settled in his palace and the Lord had given him rest from all the surrounding enemies, 2 the king summoned Nathan the prophet. “Look,” David said, “I am living in a beautiful cedar palace,[a] but the Ark of God is out there in a tent!”
3 Nathan replied to the king, “Go ahead and do whatever you have in mind, for the Lord is with you.”

4 But that same night the Lord said to Nathan,

5 “Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord has declared: Are you the one to build a house for me to live in? 6 I have never lived in a house, from the day I brought the Israelites out of Egypt until this very day. I have always moved from one place to another with a tent and a Tabernacle as my dwelling. 7 Yet no matter where I have gone with the Israelites, I have never once complained to Israel’s tribal leaders, the shepherds of my people Israel. I have never asked them, “Why haven’t you built me a beautiful cedar house?”’
8 “Now go and say to my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies has declared: I took you from tending sheep in the pasture and selected you to be the leader of my people Israel. 9 I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have destroyed all your enemies before your eyes. Now I will make your name as famous as anyone who has ever lived on the earth! 10 And I will provide a homeland for my people Israel, planting them in a secure place where they will never be disturbed. Evil nations won’t oppress them as they’ve done in the past, 11 starting from the time I appointed judges to rule my people Israel. And I will give you rest from all your enemies.
“‘Furthermore, the Lord declares that he will make a house for you—a dynasty of kings! 12 For when you die and are buried with your ancestors, I will raise up one of your descendants, your own offspring, and I will make his kingdom strong. 13 He is the one who will build a house—a temple—for my name. And I will secure his royal throne forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. If he sins, I will correct and discipline him with the rod, like any father would do. 15 But my favor will not be taken from him as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from your sight. 16 Your house and your kingdom will continue before me for all time, and your throne will be secure forever.’”

17 So Nathan went back to David and told him everything the Lord had said in this vision.

then in Matthew chapter one we see a huge family tree leading down to christ

new testimate Matthew 1:1-17
The Ancestors of Jesus the Messiah
1 This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David[a] and of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac.
Isaac was the father of Jacob.
Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah (whose mother was Tamar).
Perez was the father of Hezron.
Hezron was the father of Ram.
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab.
Amminadab was the father of Nahshon.
Nahshon was the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon was the father of Boaz (whose mother was Rahab).
Boaz was the father of Obed (whose mother was Ruth).
Obed was the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon (whose mother was Bathsheba, the widow of Uriah).
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam.
Rehoboam was the father of Abijah.
Abijah was the father of Asa.[c]
8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat.
Jehoshaphat was the father of Jehoram.[d]
Jehoram was the father[e] of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham.
Jotham was the father of Ahaz.
Ahaz was the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh.
Manasseh was the father of Amon.[f]
Amon was the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin[g] and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).
12 After the Babylonian exile:
Jehoiachin was the father of Shealtiel.
Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud.
Abiud was the father of Eliakim.
Eliakim was the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok.
Zadok was the father of Akim.
Akim was the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar.
Eleazar was the father of Matthan.
Matthan was the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary.
Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is called the Messiah.

17 All those listed above include fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the Babylonian exile, and fourteen from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah.

This is proof that Jesus Christ's birth was predicted way before, more then once, and it was in the bible, before hand.

 

[EC_Joey]

I still see no reason that God is not real, it is just doubt, please justify what could ever prove him, or his word false.

What could ever prove him true? The Bible?

Going to church or being in a community does not make you christian, it has to do with your life style and people who do these acts more then athiest i can say are not christian.

I don't even understand this sentence. Christians are Christians because they have a certain set of beliefs. You obviously didn't read even half of what I wrote, or even the things I quoted from the article.

Pushing is not what I am doing, I have yet to see someone who opened up to christ turn around. I am shoving nothing down anyones throat, as i was Aithiest until less then a year ago, and we all have the choice, no one is pushing anyone, once we are a Christian we have others for support, but I am not shoving anything down anyones throat, I am saying things i see, that support God, but this is a very open topic due to many other people think they know "God" but I think majority of believers here are in the faith of Jesus Christ. As i have a choice, you all do, and i am not saying go now! I am sharing why i believe up to today, and looking for others who have reason to reject.

You're sharing with us your wisdom? It seemed to me like you were telling us that we lack faith and because we don't trust in God we are callously rejecting his help in living our lives. If that's not preaching, what is it?

Honestly, I'm really having trouble reading your posts because your thoughts are fragmented or you switch direction mid-sentence. An example: "I am shoving nothing down anyones throat, as i was Aithiest until less then a year ago, and we all have the choice, no one is pushing anyone, once we are a Christian we have others for support, but I am not shoving anything down anyones throat, I am saying things i see, that support God, but this is a very open topic due to many other people think they know "God" but I think majority of believers here are in the faith of Jesus Christ."

...What?

 

[snex]

delorted - the difference between science and religion is that science only gives statements of the form "if you do X, then Y will happen." science NEVER says "you should do X." if scientists are saying "you should do X" it is because in their personal opinion, Y is a good thing.

now religion tries to make statements of both kinds, so it CAN be rightfully blamed when Y actually happens, because religion DOES go around saying "you should do X." the funny part about religion is that when people do X and Y doesnt happen, rather than taking this as an indication that their religion is false, they do X even more!

AIDS: what evidence do you have that the woman was actually blind in the first place, and what evidence do you have that she now isnt? bring her here and lets talk to her.

 

[snex]

There's no way to prove God's existence empirically, but there's also no way to disprove it empirically either. Of course, as you stated the burden of proof is on the believer, but since you can't say absolutely that there is no God, most people will just choose to "believe"..

what a stupid claim. why would most people choose to believe? most people do NOT choose to believe in invisible pink unicorns.

 

[Jam Stunna]

what a stupid claim. why would most people choose to believe? most people do NOT choose to believe in invisible pink unicorns.

There's no way to prove God's existence empirically, but there's also no way to disprove it empirically either. Of course, as you stated the burden of proof is on the believer, but since you can't say absolutely that there is no God, most people will just choose to "believe".

Fix'd . There are 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Muslims in this world. That's half right there.

 

[~L~]

what a stupid claim. why would most people choose to believe? most people do NOT choose to believe in invisible pink unicorns.

We aren't talking about Unicorns,we're talking about God. There will be more of an impact on someone after they die if God exists than if there are pink unicorns that can fly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sure in America it's absolutely true however the statement was. "More Christians believe in creation over evolution." It's not a question how many people in the world favor creation over evolution, as the creation would severely beaten. However a majority of Christian's will believe in creation over evolution. That's assuming the ratio of evangelicals is higher then the rate of moderates in Europe and Asia. Also just because the catholic church says doesn't mean it's going to immediately effect every ones beliefs in the church.

Yeah, it's true in America, and I never claimed otherwise. But he didn't say that in America more Christians believe in creationalism than evolution, he said that more Christians believe in creationalism than evolution.

Remember, there are a lot of Christians in Europe and Europe in general tends to be far more liberal which correlates with belief in evolution.

As for Catholicism, I would hesitate to assume that the majority of them deny the official teachings of the church just because the majority of Christians in the US do. Especially since the more conservative people are (which correlates with greater support for creationalism) the more rigorously Catholics follow the official opinions of the Church. In my expirience only the borderline Sedevecantists tend to disagree with evolution. In general, evolution is considered a really innocuous issue among Catholics, so people who would chose to bring conservative objections to current teachings would not generally chose evolution. Plus, it's taught at almost all the Catholic schools (Catholic schools are forbidden to teach creationalism).



Really, just due to the fact that the evangelicals are more prevalent then Catholics in the US whereas Catholicism comprises of well over half the Christians in the world should tell you that United States Christianity is not a statistically valid to generalize to all Christianity.

 

[snex]

We aren't talking about Unicorns,we're talking about God. There wil be more of an impact on someone after they die if God exists than if there are pink unicorns that can fly.

says who? the same idiot thats pushing the god-belief in the first place.

thats like me selling anti-tiger rocks for $20. if im wrong, you just lose $20. but if im right, youll be safe from tigers. so why dont people buy the rocks?

its the exact same gamble but with lower stakes.

 

[AIDS]

What could ever prove him true? The Bible?

I don't even understand this sentence. Christians are Christians because they have a certain set of beliefs. You obviously didn't read even half of what I wrote, or even the things I quoted from the article.

You're sharing with us your wisdom? It seemed to me like you were telling us that we lack faith and because we don't trust in God we are callously rejecting his help in living our lives. If that's not preaching, what is it?

Honestly, I'm really having trouble reading your posts because your thoughts are fragmented or you switch direction mid-sentence. An example: "I am shoving nothing down anyones throat, as i was Aithiest until less then a year ago, and we all have the choice, no one is pushing anyone, once we are a Christian we have others for support, but I am not shoving anything down anyones throat, I am saying things i see, that support God, but this is a very open topic due to many other people think they know "God" but I think majority of believers here are in the faith of Jesus Christ."

...What?

Yes the bible proves him true. Read my last post.

If i go to church every sunday, that does not make me christian, it is how i aply god to my life, does that make sence?

yeah sorry to many comma's and jumping around, but I am saying my post is not forcing anyone, you can accept or reject right here. I am stateing what made me believe, as the title does ask that question. There is more and the phew verses I mentioned should prove him true, and there is a lot more, but those are a phew I know by heart.

 

[AltF4]

AIDS:

...now, now... I asked for evidence that the Bible is true and you give me quotes from the Bible?

If my neighbor who believes in the invisible pink unicorn gave me a piece of paper allegedly written by the IPU (Invisible Pink Unicorn) which states that the IPU exists, would you take that as evidence that the IPU exists?

No it's called circular reasoning.

I will allow you to try again in vain to justify your belief before demonstrating in excessive detail why it is nonsensical.


EDIT: To others that are trying to reply to me, I apologize. this thread is suddenly moving too fast to respond to everyone appropriately.

 

[EC_Joey]

We aren't talking about Unicorns,we're talking about God. There wil be more of an impact on someone after they die if God exists than if there are pink unicorns that can fly.

What if those invisible pink unicorns decide whether or not we go to heaven or hell? That claim is just as valid as your claim that God exists and makes that decision.

 

[snex]

AIDS, did you know that the oracle at delphi predicted that oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother?

after this prediction was made, oedipus' parents abandoned him in the mountains, but he was rescued and grew up. when he discovered the prediction, he left his adoptive parents to avoid his fate, only to end up killing his biological father and marrying his biological mother.

how could this prediction POSSIBLY be true unless the greek pantheon actually exists?

 

[lonejedi]

AIDS:

...now, now... I asked for evidence that the Bible is true and you give me quotes from the Bible?

If my neighbor who believes in the invisible pink unicorn gave me a piece of paper allegedly written by the IPU (Invisible Pink Unicorn) which states that the IPU exists, would you take that as evidence that the IPU exists?

No it's called circular reasoning.

I will allow you to try again in vain to justify your belief before demonstrating in excessive detail why it is nonsensical.

I'm not major in Math, but isn't that how math works? I remember when going over Geometry, we all started with a rule. The rule could never be proved 100% right, but it worked out in every situation. After we established this rule, we would go on to and make more rules from it. Thus creating math.

 

[AIDS]

AIDS:

...now, now... I asked for evidence that the Bible is true and you give me quotes from the Bible?

If my neighbor who believes in the invisible pink unicorn gave me a piece of paper allegedly written by the IPU (Invisible Pink Unicorn) which states that the IPU exists, would you take that as evidence that the IPU exists?

No it's called circular reasoning.

I will allow you to try again in vain to justify your belief before demonstrating in excessive detail why it is nonsensical.

The bible is very historicly correct, and the old testimate has records that i can not direct to at the moment, but the old testimate was before gods time, the jewish people stoped at the first 5 books of the old testimate, and they have stayed on those books for years, what i pointed out in the bible is true, and it did happen, we can all agree with that, and with the amount of time the jews have been around was way before christ, and that proves the old testimate was there before christ was born, which proves that it was predicted, not a story made up afterwords.

AIDS, did you know that the oracle at delphi predicted that oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother?

after this prediction was made, oedipus' parents abandoned him in the mountains, but he was rescued and grew up. when he discovered the prediction, he left his adoptive parents to avoid his fate, only to end up killing his biological father and marrying his biological mother.

how could this prediction POSSIBLY be true unless the greek pantheon actually exists?

I was in greece and learned of this aswell, and they are all storys with no back up, and Greece is all Christian now.

 

[snex]

I'm not major in Math, but isn't that how math works? I remember when going over Geometry, we all started with a rule. The rule could never be proved 100% right, but it worked out in every situation. After we established this rule, we would go on to and make more rules from it. Thus creating math.

nobody claims that mathematical constructs actually exist in the real world and care what we do with our genitals. all mathematicians REALIZE that what they study is abstract and not real. we study it nonetheless because it is useful for modeling real things.

religion gets none of these points.

 

[snex]

The bible is very historicly correct, and the old testimate has records that i can not direct to at the moment, but the old testimate was before gods time, the jewish people stoped at the first 5 books of the old testimate, and they have stayed on those books for years, what i pointed out in the bible is true, and it did happen, we can all agree with that, and with the amount of time the jews have been around was way before christ, and that proves the old testimate was there before christ was born, which proves that it was predicted, not a story made up afterwords.

im sorry but thats wrong. its true that the prophecies do predate jesus, but how do you know jesus actually fulfilled them? just because people wrote that he did? how do you know THEY were telling the truth?

if jesus actually DID fulfill the prophecies, then why are there still jews? the jews as you suggest were very meticulous in studying these prophecies and keeping them written down. they would have noticed if somebody fulfilled them, as opposed to a bunch of guys just claiming he did.

I was in greece and learned of this aswell, and they are all storys with no back up, and Greece is all Christian now.

yes thats the point. the bible is EXACTLY like that. just because the words say a prophecy was fulfilled does not mean the events actually happened. there is NO real evidence that jesus fulfilled any prophecies.

 

[EC_Joey]

If i go to church every sunday, that does not make me christian, it is how i aply god to my life, does that make sence?

Can you read what I am writing? What doesn't make sense is that you appear to agree with my statements, but you're under the impression that I am saying: "Christians go to church. That's why they're Christians". I never said this and I don't agree with this. This is what I stated, try and read it a second time:

Christians are Christians because they have a certain set of beliefs.

Did I say anything at all about attending church?

 

[AltF4]

I'm not major in Math, but isn't that how math works? I remember when going over Geometry, we all started with a rule. The rule could never be proved 100% right, but it worked out in every situation. After we established this rule, we would go on to and make more rules from it. Thus creating math.

Ahhh, not bad. This is why Jedi gets the red name, lol.

No matter what we're talking about or debating, there are a couple of fundamental and basic assumptions that MUST be made. They seem empirically obvious, but strictly speaking cannot be proven.

1) The axioms of logic are true. (A = A, A & not A = false, etc...)

2) The axioms of mathematics are true. (This is actually equivalent to #1)

3) Causality. Causality. Causality.

You can look up the axioms in greater detail on wikipedia or google. Just search for "math axioms" or whatever and I'm sure you'll get pages of results.

To reject or question any of these assumptions is self defeating. Think about it: if you make a logical argument showing that logic is flawed, then your very argument is flawed!


Now, what reason would we have to assume that the bible is correct in this fashion?

 

[AIDS]

im sorry but thats wrong. its true that the prophecies do predate jesus, but how do you know jesus actually fulfilled them? just because people wrote that he did? how do you know THEY were telling the truth?

if jesus actually DID fulfill the prophecies, then why are there still jews? the jews as you suggest were very meticulous in studying these prophecies and keeping them written down. they would have noticed if somebody fulfilled them, as opposed to a bunch of guys just claiming he did.



yes thats the point. the bible is EXACTLY like that. just because the words say a prophecy was fulfilled does not mean the events actually happened. there is NO real evidence that jesus fulfilled any prophecies.

how am I wrong? The jews denied all the other books besides the first 5 books.

The bible can be proven to be before Jesus came to earth, and the bible is very accurate to the history of this earth, aswell they started counting years after it since it was amazing, in that time they knew he was god, and there is a lot of evidence that he came, if you need to make a time machine to make sure your mother got pregnate at one time then go ahead, but i think it is clear enough where i don't need a time machine.

 

[AIDS]

Now, what reason would we have to assume that the bible is correct in this fashion?

The bible is very historicly correct, and the old testimate has records that i can not direct to at the moment, but the old testimate was before gods time, the jewish people stoped at the first 5 books of the old testimate, and they have stayed on those books for years, what i pointed out in the bible is true, and it did happen, we can all agree with that, and with the amount of time the jews have been around was way before christ, and that proves the old testimate was there before christ was born, which proves that it was predicted, not a story made up afterwords.

 

[AltF4]

I'm not sure that I can carry on a logical debate with someone who is under the delusion that the bible is a credible source of history or facts. That is just ludicrous. I suppose you're a young earth christian then? And a flat Earth christian as well?

 

[AIDS]

I'm not sure that I can carry on a logical debate with someone who is under the delusion that the bible is a credible source of history or facts. That is just ludicrous. I suppose you're a young earth christian then? And a flat Earth christian as well?

please tell me where it says that the earth is flat, that is not a christian belief.

 

[snex]

how am I wrong? The jews denied all the other books besides the first 5 books.

The bible can be proven to be before Jesus came to earth, and the bible is very accurate to the history of this earth, aswell they started counting years after it since it was amazing, in that time they knew he was god, and there is a lot of evidence that he came, if you need to make a time machine to make sure your mother got pregnate at one time then go ahead, but i think it is clear enough where i don't need a time machine.

you are double wrong. the jews use the entire old testament, plus several books that are not in the christian bible. its the jews that wrote the prophecies in isaiah, ezekiel, jeremiah, etc. they still use those prophecies to look for the messiah today.

and the bible is not very accurate at all. the most accurate parts are the detailings of wars amongst the hebrews and the successions of kings. there is also virtually NO evidence that jesus ever lived in the first place. what little evidence there is actually comes from the obvious mistakes and blunders that gospel writers made.

daniel 4:10-11 gives a flat earth. a tree that can see the entire earth can only exist if the earth is either flat or on the INSIDE of a sphere. most ancient peoples thought the earth was flat, and the jews are no exception.

matthew 4:8 also describes a flat earth. jesus is on a mountain that can see the entire earth. this cant happen on a sphere. and this was written centuries after the greeks already knew the earth was round!

 

[EC_Joey]

The bible is very historicly correct, and the old testimate has records that i can not direct to at the moment, but the old testimate was before gods time, the jewish people stoped at the first 5 books of the old testimate, and they have stayed on those books for years, what i pointed out in the bible is true, and it did happen, we can all agree with that, and with the amount of time the jews have been around was way before christ, and that proves the old testimate was there before christ was born, which proves that it was predicted, not a story made up afterwords.

The Bible is not historically correct. God created the universe in 7 days? Moses parted the Red Sea with the help of God? The entire world was flooded, and two of every animal were kept on a giant ark?

The prediction of the birth of a prophet or savior is not unique. The birth of the prophet Muhammud was predicted. Does that make those scriptures as legitimate as the Bible? Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?