Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Tom]

quick everyone play as much lol as you can

 

[KevinM]

Man hearing Phreak say 2 towers over and over when they had three was painful

 

[PhantomX]

Honestly if anyone is paying any sort of attention it's not that easy to land an E+Q combo, not to mention E actually has more startup on it than Q from what I've noticed, because he does the little toss animation and then the flag has to come down, meaning it's actually harder to hit with (sine their range is almost equivalent [E's is a little larger]. Not to mention w/ a blue buff you can throw out multiple Qs for each E, which is where the damage comes from.

E is good to throw out to force their actions/summoners/bait a movement, then you can close the distance w/ Q if you will hit them or even do so into shield, and land another Q or some red buff hits or something. They have to be pretty close to the bush and not see you coming for the E+Q to land easily.

 

[DanGR]

New champ!

Nocturne, the Eternal Nightmare:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=565664

Edit: On the topic of Jarvan, I find Q waaaaay easier to land than E. o.o Even though leveling Q up over E lets you harass more in the lane (don't know about jungle, lol), it's at the cost of providing a weaker aura for your team. I dunno what's best.

quick everyone play as much lol as you can

I lol'd.

 

[safehaven]

lol u dont need smite sometimes

its like those smash players who are like "never roll, rolling is noob" and they dont realize its situational

if u have cho lux or even like annie, u can do super damage with one spell, even more than lvl 18 smite true damage

in a perfect world u should always drag buffs into bushes and ward the river sooo
yeah there is an argument for not taking smite. so far u have
-ridiculed people for not taking it with a bad analogy
-said there was no argument

very decisive. I dont want to be a **** but its definitely situational whether u take it..

 

[Tom]

that champ looks pretty awesome

and we hadnt even heard anything about it before now

crazy

 

[PhantomX]

Man... they need to stop making champs look freaking awesome... I'm never gonna get Blitzcrank if this keeps up If his in-game model is anywhere near as cool as this concept art I'll probably end up getting him on release, if I can farm up 6300 IP, that is (which I probably won't be able to).

 

[fkacyan]

lol u dont need smite sometimes

its like those smash players who are like "never roll, rolling is noob" and they dont realize its situational

if u have cho lux or even like annie, u can do super damage with one spell, even more than lvl 18 smite true damage

in a perfect world u should always drag buffs into bushes and ward the river sooo
yeah there is an argument for not taking smite. so far u have
-ridiculed people for not taking it with a bad analogy
-said there was no argument

very decisive. I dont want to be a **** but its definitely situational whether u take it..

If the enemy jungler:

- Has smite
- Wards your jungle brush

He can easily just smite your **** all day long.

 

[Virgilijus]

lol u dont need smite sometimes

its like those smash players who are like "never roll, rolling is noob" and they dont realize its situational

if u have cho lux or even like annie, u can do super damage with one spell, even more than lvl 18 smite true damage

in a perfect world u should always drag buffs into bushes and ward the river sooo
yeah there is an argument for not taking smite. so far u have
-ridiculed people for not taking it with a bad analogy
-said there was no argument

very decisive. I dont want to be a **** but its definitely situational whether u take it..

A jungler taking smite always has a definite advantage over a jungler who doesn't. The amount of times I have seen dragons, barons, red, and blues stolen because of not having smite (or just having it up). If the enemy is competent (and you should always assume so), then you need to take away their advantage.

Smite lets you jungle faster (and therefore gank faster), protect your buffs and potentially steal theirs much better than not having it.

 

[Mogwai]

lol u dont need smite sometimes

its like those smash players who are like "never roll, rolling is noob" and they dont realize its situational

if u have cho lux or even like annie, u can do super damage with one spell, even more than lvl 18 smite true damage

in a perfect world u should always drag buffs into bushes and ward the river sooo
yeah there is an argument for not taking smite. so far u have
-ridiculed people for not taking it with a bad analogy
-said there was no argument

very decisive. I dont want to be a **** but its definitely situational whether u take it..

don't worry, you're not being any more of **** than I am. I'm not taking anything personally.

but anyway I don't like talking a ton about smite because it's a tiring and unfulfillable discussion to have and it's been had many many times before. you ask anyone who's high elo and they'll tell you that there are no exceptions to the "take smite" rule and there are a whole bunch of reasons for this.

so, fine, I'll humor you, here's why.

Early
Early smite does 2 essential things:
1. prevents your buffs from getting jacked by an opponent with smite
2. speeds your jungling up by a substantial margin

1 is the one that is most often used to try to explain to someone why you need smite and that's because it's the most potentially devestating scenario where you get punished for not taking smite. If you've ever played fiddle without smite and had your blue smite stolen early in your last drain, you know this scenario well because not only have you wasted time to give your opponent gold, xp, and a buff, but now you're low with your drain on CD and he's probably just FBing you without any effort whatsoever.

2 is also essential, but something that is frequently lost on players who just jungle for the sake of jungling. Jungling is about trying to get the most efficient gold/exp gain outside of a lane while giving your team global presence. When you're taking your sweet time to actually finish the jungle, your team is getting ganked by the opposing jungler and you're falling behind on the opposing jungler until you get your razors (in the WW scenario). I don't care if your jungle speed after first clear is barely hurt by not having smite, you're finishing at least a minute late because of how you have built around not using smite. Just think about how pissed you'd be if your jungler was DCed for the first minute after creeps spawned (is this analogy appropriate enough for you?). This lack of speed is unacceptable when you're trying to optimize your role. Embrace the fact that your role is a jungler and build towards it.

Both of these add up to a tl;dr that is, "a good player with smite will counter jungle you and make your life a living hell on you early if you don't take smite"

Mid/Late
Securing Dragon/Baron without having to use an ult is hugely important. Just think about the dynamic of a fight after you smite baron right before the opposing lux's ult tries to jack it. They're now down an ult and you're down nothing of consequence AND you just got Baron while they had no legitimate shot at it because of your summoner spell. If you're relying on your Lux to do this while you're being proactive about trying to secure baron, just imagine the devastation of a Shaco decieving in and smite stealing right before the Lux ult.

The only ability you actually listed that comes close to serving the same role is Cho's Feast because it's 1K true damage vs. minions, but aside from that and Nunu's Consume, there's nothing that can actually imitate what smite does and even losing Cho's ult to secure a buff is taking a reasonably large chunk of your team's potency and sacrificing it to make up for 1 summoner spell. Just think about what you're saying here... you're saying that you'd rather have to put an Ult nuke on CD to make up for 1 summoner spell that you're going to be spending on a Flash/Ignite on your WW? Really? You need to get your priorities straight here... having a feast to insta-kill someone is way better than either of those things on WW.


What it all boils down to is that jungling is a role in and of itself and doing it as efficiently and safely as you can is important and smite is needed to do so.

 

[Nite]

I like nunu's ability to counter-jungle more than anything. Feels so good to ward their jungle and go over from time to time stealing their ****.

 

[Frolossus]

By blue dependent do you mean they require blue at early jungle levels (1-6) or they continue to require it after the first blue? Udyr really only needs the first one while Amumu tends to need it throughout the game.

i consider blue dependent as in starts at blue

 

[Dekar173]

If you are jungling, you take smite. Period.

Getting buffs/objectives stolen isn't good. If you lose your buffs, or didn't get dragon because you don't believe in running smite, then it's entirely your fault when your team's going to start lagging behind because their jungler is underleveled, or underprepared to gank due to lacking buffs.

If you're jungling, run smite, it makes it much easier, and prevents counterjungling.

 

[Mogwai]

If you are jungling, you take smite. Period.

Getting buffs/objectives stolen isn't good. If you lose your buffs, or didn't get dragon because you don't believe in running smite, then it's entirely your fault when your team's going to start lagging behind because their jungler is underleveled, or underprepared to gank due to lacking buffs.

If you're jungling, run smite, it makes it much easier, and prevents counterjungling.

as I said... high elo players know smite on junglers is non-negotiable

 

[Pakman]

don't worry, you're not being any more of **** than I am. I'm not taking anything personally.

but anyway I don't like talking a ton about smite because it's a tiring and unfulfillable discussion to have and it's been had many many times before. you ask anyone who's high elo and they'll tell you that there are no exceptions to the "take smite" rule and there are a whole bunch of reasons for this.

so, fine, I'll humor you, here's why.

Early
Early smite does 2 essential things:
1. prevents your buffs from getting jacked by an opponent with smite
2. speeds your jungling up by a substantial margin

1 is the one that is most often used to try to explain to someone why you need smite and that's because it's the most potentially devestating scenario where you get punished for not taking smite. If you've ever played fiddle without smite and had your blue smite stolen early in your last drain, you know this scenario well because not only have you wasted time to give your opponent gold, xp, and a buff, but now you're low with your drain on CD and he's probably just FBing you without any effort whatsoever.

2 is also essential, but something that is frequently lost on players who just jungle for the sake of jungling. Jungling is about trying to get the most efficient gold/exp gain outside of a lane while giving your team global presence. When you're taking your sweet time to actually finish the jungle, your team is getting ganked by the opposing jungler and you're falling behind on the opposing jungler until you get your razors (in the WW scenario). I don't care if your jungle speed after first clear is barely hurt by not having smite, you're finishing at least a minute late because of how you have built around not using smite. Just think about how pissed you'd be if your jungler was DCed for the first minute after creeps spawned (is this analogy appropriate enough for you?). This lack of speed is unacceptable when you're trying to optimize your role. Embrace the fact that your role is a jungler and build towards it.

Both of these add up to a tl;dr that is, "a good player with smite will counter jungle you and make your life a living hell on you early if you don't take smite"

Mid/Late
Securing Dragon/Baron without having to use an ult is hugely important. Just think about the dynamic of a fight after you smite baron right before the opposing lux's ult tries to jack it. They're now down an ult and you're down nothing of consequence AND you just got Baron while they had no legitimate shot at it because of your summoner spell. If you're relying on your Lux to do this while you're being proactive about trying to secure baron, just imagine the devastation of a Shaco decieving in and smite stealing right before the Lux ult.

The only ability you actually listed that comes close to serving the same role is Cho's Feast because it's 1K true damage vs. minions, but aside from that and Nunu's Consume, there's nothing that can actually imitate what smite does and even losing Cho's ult to secure a buff is taking a reasonably large chunk of your team's potency and sacrificing it to make up for 1 summoner spell. Just think about what you're saying here... you're saying that you'd rather have to put an Ult nuke on CD to make up for 1 summoner spell that you're going to be spending on a Flash/Ignite on your WW? Really? You need to get your priorities straight here... having a feast to insta-kill someone is way better than either of those things on WW.


What it all boils down to is that jungling is a role in and of itself and doing it as efficiently and safely as you can is important and smite is needed to do so.

 

[safehaven]

ok situational then

at lower elos u dont need smite

there hey look ty for (almost) proving my point

u keep acting like dragon is gonna be some huge contested smite steal thing

well in all of my games usually u get two kills and dragon

or ww solos it at lvl 8.
so narrow minded sigh

honestly anytime u ult u are setting yourself up for possibly losing a fight without the ult

the whole save the ult for the fight argument only assumes there will be a fight right afterward, and that u have to fight. possibly that ult would have made a differenece in the fight (chos feast definitely does) but how much theory do u want?

should i ult in my lane at all cause i might need it to fight? should i save the ult during a fight for later? should i never ult at all so as to save to for some unforeseen event?]

your whole second point depends on a value judgement of the player. if u are baroning when they are in a position to steal then maybe u shouldnt baron. u shouldnt even need smite in teh first place
its less strict for dragon but.. why dragon when u dont have map control? u talk about high elo, but look at streams and watch that at high level, people never baron unless they know they can get it (number advantage, enemy jungler away, etc)

if u both have smite (both junglers) then they might just take your buff anyway, depending on whom timed better.

also for some junglers (WW) smite doesnt speed up that much AND leaves u with a useless summoner all mid game (why would u dragon in mid game if u need to smite it to make sure u get it?)

the whole mentality of needing smite to secure baron drag red an blue is so risky. why would u baron if u rely on some kid to press a button exactly as its gonig down, over some other kid who's doing the same thing? this point isnt well worded but if u see how risky it is then u have understood the point

on the other hand, if u take ignite as ww (which i do a lot depending on the team) (and not to showcase myself or anything cause im a low elo noob), then you get an extra couple hundred damage that u can cast during your ult in early ganks and a spell to counter a healer in fights.
or if no one on your team has port and they have a tf or yi, get port so u wont get *****......

i took smite forever as ww and hated it because there were so many ganks i did where the other person survived because i had a useless summoner for ganking.
so i took ignite and loved it.

situational

and why the hell dont u pull red and blue into bushes when ur getting buffs? also i dont get how walking over and smiting a wraith is that much different from walking over and hitting a wraith 5 times. if the timing is that significant and u dont feel safe hitting it 5 times over smiting the thing, maybe u shouldnt go in their jungle at all.

 

[Mogwai]

ok situational then

at lower elos u dont need smite

there hey look ty for (almost) proving my point

u keep acting like dragon is gonna be some huge contested smite steal thing

well in all of my games usually u get two kills and dragon

or ww solos it at lvl 8.
so narrow minded sigh

at lower levels of Melee, you don't need l-canceling, just pick Marth and fsmash

doesn't mean we should encourage it.


http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=129429&d=1299383029

 

[Dekar173]

Okay, you sure proved your point! At low levels of play, you don't need smite to jungle and can instead use heal.

Point proven- you're amazing.



Okay now you're assuming we don't do things that are extremely common, AND you are completely missing the point.

"and why the hell dont u pull red and blue into bushes when ur getting buffs? also i dont get how walking over and smiting a wraith is that much different from walking over and hitting a wraith 5 times. if the timing is that significant and u dont feel safe hitting it 5 times over smiting the thing, maybe u shouldnt go in their jungle at all."

Absolutely everyone pulls buffs into the brush. If you don't, you are bad. Period.

That being said- what does pulling the buff do for you if they have a ward in it (I do this all of the time) and just plan on stealing the last hit with smite? It does nothing for you, because they still have vision, and smite, whereas you do not have smite.

Also- using smite on anything that isn't a mini golem, a buff, or an objective (dragon/baron) is a waste. I don't understand why you'd even imply someone would hit a wraith with smite instead of burning it with one of their skills.



"if u both have smite (both junglers) then they might just take your buff anyway, depending on whom timed better."

Yup it's a competition, but let's look at it from the "you don't have smite" point of view- it's not a competition. You lose the buff, period, and give something up to the opponent team that should never have been given up in the first place.

Now their jungler has YOUR blue, and is free to give their AP carry THEIR blue buff, completely ****** whoever they're soloing against.



The fact of the matter is, there are better LoL players than you, hard to believe, I know, but they exist. Not only do they exist, but they post on these very boards! So among us right now are better LoL players than you. The best part about these players is that they are actually willing to give you some helpful insights as to how to play this game, what works, what doesn't work, etc to the point of revealing literally everything they know about this game! They aren't selfish, they want you to be better!

The only tough part is, it's up to YOU to listen to them and improve upon your game when they're giving you advice, lest you fall behind due to your arrogance.

 

[john!]

the only champion i would even consider jungling w/o smite is nunu (because he has a built-in more powerful smite). but i still use smite because i don't have the best runes for him, and it lets me steal buffs and so on.

 

[Ndot]

Omg, I might start playing LoL again. Now that there are bros. from smash who know how to play. :D

 

[Dekar173]

the only champion i would even consider jungling w/o smite is nunu (because he has a built-in more powerful smite). but i still use smite because i don't have the best runes for him, and it lets me steal buffs and so on.

The ONE champion that could possibly go without smite- except when he has smite he can now steal buffs at a ridiculous pace, safely, with an amazing escape.

Even on Nunu with all of these benefits, the pros of using smite outweigh the cons.

Pros:
Jungle speed
Will of the Ancients synergy
100% guarantee last hits on objectives short of Blitzcrank/CC bombs
You can now counterjungle like a god

Cons:
No exhaust (you have the #1 kiting slow in the game anyway)
No ignite (you don't care about getting the last hits on enemy champs, you're a support)
No flash/ghost (Nunu doesn't need 2 escapes...)
No heal (you are bad)
No clarity (again, you are bad)
No CV (actually detrimental assuming your team lacks one entirely)
No teleport (far more "situational" than smite, but an even better SS in the current metagame)



Smite = THE jungler skill, just like flash = THE escape skill

others just don't compare.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Lol Yi is pretty decent in the new minion farm-push metagame.

 

[Mogwai]

Also- using smite on anything that isn't a mini golem, a buff, or an objective (dragon/baron) is a waste. I don't understand why you'd even imply someone would hit a wraith with smite instead of burning it with one of their skills.

when opening by stealing wraiths, smiting the blue wraith is pretty standard. mostly you're right, but there are situations where you're just trying to use smite's CD (right before backing or when ****ing with their jungle and trying to be hasty) and your only choice is to use it on large wolf or blue wraith.

the only champion i would even consider jungling w/o smite is nunu (because he has a built-in more powerful smite). but i still use smite because i don't have the best runes for him, and it lets me steal buffs and so on.

NuNu sacrifices his main jungle advantage by not taking smite. having double the instance true damage nuking ability on creeps is important to why he's strong in the jungle and giving this up just makes you a bad version of another jungler who runs smite.

 

[Teh Brettster]

So I know everyone in the jungle does so much better with blue buff, and I know it's a bad idea not to get it. But it's possible for Nunu to give Malzahar (mid) blue buff at the beginning. Malz drops his pool, Nunu smites and consumes. Malz pool will finish Golem off and give Malz exp + a blue buff. Possible large advantage in mid at the beginning. He'll level up before the other person will and the blue buff speaks for itself, even if you only have 2 skills to use (it's pushypush Malzahar, after all).

It's pretty off-the-wall and and inhibits Nunu's activity in jungle by a bit... but... thoughts?

 

[PhantomX]

The xp you get in the jungle is limited enough as it is, why give it to someone who has a whole lane to himself? Just give him the second one onward, so you reach a decent level at a good pace (unless you steal theirs, in which case you can just give yours to mid).

 

[Plum]

I sometimes give up the first blue buff.
I've only really done it with my friend as he plays Karthus, but the results are always silly. Basically gives him total domination over his lane while he has it, and Nunu can still clear the jungle pretty quickly without it and gank with red buff with at or near full health quickly.

Don't know if I would really do that in a serious game though, as those few seconds you save with blue buff can be a big difference. That and it's much easier to confidently go into the opposing jungle when you do have the buff.

 

[safehaven]

so u guys replied to the parts of the argument that u could misundertand and therefore answer easily.

so nice to see in high elo streams how much of a competition it is. u guys both sit there and time smite together at each buff ROFL

i just mm with this 800 win ww who used smite flash and ***** nice. but im low elo so it doesnt count

the point is if u are doing baron and theres a possibility it could get smite stolen then u shouldnt be doing baron. way to throw a game LOL
unless ur on your last leg but at high elo no one loses and u r gods

if i had 3 ss i would alwasy take smite

its nice how u can still just pick and choose what u want to misinterpret then argue against it and act like im a ******

lol dekar u r so mad. werent u the one who got infracted earlier for flaming someone in this thread?

if u make an appeal to authority to prove a pont that's fine, ill just ignore u.
but to respond to the smite stealing part: yeah its a risk. but guess what? u can ward too and see them coming. your team can gank them if they come to smite steal a buff. u just think so one dimensionally. and if youre going to pull the "better people say do this" card, well maybe they do and maybe your right. but u shouldnt expect me to just be a sheep and do stuff cause better people do them right? its not like better ways of doing things happen right?
take the whole roaming champ meta. new way but if u looked backed 6 months ago, better people didnt do it.
if u want me to believe what you say, at least argue against my points. and stop raging at me.

@dog
at low levels of melee u get ***** if u do that LOL. Low level of melee = people will wavedash oos grab u lol im low level melee and ill wd oos grab a marth every time for that.

 

[PhantomX]

Just like you can ward, they can counterward or have a support with Oracles. That's a huge part of the game as well and if you get outplayed in that category and don't have Smite, you're screwed.

Also think that if they counterward you you're going to have to expend much more money and time on counter-countewarding and rewarding just to avoid having your stuff stolen, because if you had that Smite it wouldn't be as big of an issue.

 

[safehaven]

ok ok

always take smite

 

[PhantomX]

Like, we're not saying you CAN'T do it w/o Smite, just that it's a bad idea to do it because you're at an inherent disadvantage vs a jungler that takes it.

 

[Plum]

Getting your buffs stolen aside, you're still not addressing the importance of speed in the jungle.
Smite cuts off a LOT of time in the jungle, which allows you to complete the rest of your rolls as the jungler more efficiently and effectively. That's reason enough for me to run it. Being slower opens you up to heavy counterjungling by champs like Nunu, the opposing jungler who actually has Smite will be finishing their route faster with more health and more duration on their buffs, you're objectives are less secure, blah blah blah...

It just makes you better at everything you need to be doing as the jungler. It's your job to control your buffs, secure Dragon/Baron, and put the opposing jungler off their game. Smite mine as well read "I do everything you want in your role" and why wouldn't you take something like that?
Just because something works at low ELO doesn't mean it is any good at all. If you are jungling without Smite at high ELO I can guarantee your life is going to be made a living hell by somebody who does have it at almost every phase of the game.

 

[Frolossus]

so far the fastest clear time i hit with shaco(impractically) is 3:40 running smite/fortify and a green elixir
wondering if i finish my AS runes if i can hit 3:35 x:

 

[john!]

I quit jungling with Shaco after I got my boxes popped for the 10th time... it's so frustrating.

 

[Frolossus]

I quit jungling with Shaco after I got my boxes popped for the 10th time... it's so frustrating.

if you start at red and have your boxes popped run over to blue drop 2 boxes and go
also get your team to cover you

 

[jpak]

nunu can finish at 3:15 :o

 

[Cia]

at lower levels of Melee, you don't need l-canceling, just pick Marth and fsmash

doesn't mean we should encourage it.


http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=129429&d=1299383029

you have been my absolute favorite poster recently.

partly because of that analogy

mostly because of ur sig.
----

that new hero reminds me of spiderman/venom. i hope he's another stealth champ.. lol

 

[Mogwai]

i just mm with this 800 win ww who used smite flash and ***** nice. but im low elo so it doesnt count

1. still had smite
2. some of the worst players I see have 1000 wins. when you take wins out of context, they don't mean a whole hell of a lot.

@dog
at low levels of melee u get ***** if u do that LOL. Low level of melee = people will wavedash oos grab u lol im low level melee and ill wd oos grab a marth every time for that.

@no avatar
you're not going low enough then. I'm just saying if you lower the bar enough, any strategy can sound good in any game, which is why we strive to play like the highest level of play we can see. You're antagonizing a lot of people for no reason and arguing semantics. Ideal jungle play always involves smite. Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news, but that's just the way it is. You can jungle without smite, just like you can run Alistar without flash, but the simple fact of the matter is that you'll hit a wall because your strategy ultimately relies on the opponents not knowing how to punish you for it.

Dekar's a jerk about giving advice, but it's still usually sound. If you can't stand the way he chooses to dispense it, just ignore him.

 

[Spife]

So much text x.x

Can some one explain to me the advantages for lantern > blood razor? I can theorize as much as I want, but I want some one smarter then me to explain.

 

[jpak]

ashe's arrow is the best spell in the game

 

[L__]

spell shield lolololol