Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Grim Tuesday]

The MBR flat-out did not believe it should be banned, as far as I know.

Tomber: An archaic opinion imo; similar to Marth beating ICs. Becomes less and less true as the players get better.

 

[Tomber]

That's very ture. The post was mostly aimed at knightpraetor who didn't seem to know the match up. I just tried to sum up some of the, imo, more important aspects of the match up that you should be aware of when playing it for the first time.

However, I still think Samus is one of ICs' harder match ups on the paper, relatively speaking.

Sorto: Wobbing is kind of hard to define and therefore hard to ban. Even if MBR wanted to ban it, they might not know how to do so. Maybe some TO's think it is simple to ban even without a definition of it and then just ban it because they dislike it. I don't know. Here in Europe it is most likely never banned, as far as I know.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm really bad at Iceblock/blizzard camping...
I don't like doing it much, so I only do it in MUs where I feel that I need to, so I'm not very good and it feels like there are giant holes in it that allow people to get right through it.

 

[choknater]

samus vs ic's is hard, but IMO it is still close to even. unlike most other matches, samus is the one who is able to put up sort of a wall and ic's are forced to get in. missiles force us to either shield, jump over the missiles, or attack the missiles. projectile games in general are hard for ic's to fight, but they really don't end up doing much damage as long as you defend/evade them properly.

i was really hasty in the matchup, and my ic's were rusty and making technical mistakes all day that day.

my ylink, however, was on fire that day, and i ended up beating his samus convincingly and almost 4-stocking his falco when he attempted to CP

anyway norcal doesn't ban wobbling, i really feel like i should add it to my game LOL. considering how many grabs i was able to get on mango and shroomed and my games with them were close...



hey fly: in conversation with zhu, and johnny in the past, they both mentioned the high level of contrast between my play style and yours. we make really different decisions in matches. they said i do different things compared to you. zhu said if we incorporated each other's stuff we'd both be much better. i wonder what he was referring to!!

ahhh i wish my set with mango was recorded. i lost 0-2 to his falcon on BF but both games were close. it was a good example of me playing well.

to vanir: you have to make your ice block/blizzard usage adaptable and movable. if you just use it like a pattern in place, it is really really easy to catch onto and break through. if you add some popo movement and variation to the projectiles, such as wavedashing, dash dancing, or aerials with popo, or perhaps using nana's ice block or nanapult to create an approach, your desynching will be better.

my original usage of continuous desynchs used to be just for a defensive wall, but now i've been finding much more ways to create offense from a desynch in ways that are safe and reliable. for example ice block chasers are just soooooo good.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think my decision-making in general is fairly different than that of most other ICs players, so it's hard for me to derive much useful information from that without any details.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I think my decision-making in general is fairly different than that of most other ICs players, so it's hard for me to derive much useful information from that without any details.

idk, looks pretty straight forward to me. methodical mother ****er, u and wobbles

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm MBR and believe wobbling should be banned.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What do you know, anyways?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm MBR and believe wobbling should be banned.

It's a good thing no one takes you seriously

 

[Binx]

I think wobbling is really boring and thats the main reason I dont use it, but I dont think its imbalanced, tough to say where I stand on it being legal. I kinda don't like things that slow the game down a ton or look dumb, so if I am in favor of banning wobbling for that reason I should prolly ban Puff at my tournies too lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Like I said in this thread, it's not as simple as just "banning Wobbling" anyway.

 

[Nintendude]

I like how nobody ever answered Wobbles' question on the first page (max posts per page). It's a really key point that highlights the problems with trying to ban it.

 

[Tomber]

Like I said in this thread, it's not as simple as just "banning Wobbling" anyway.

Yeah, it's pretty much what I referred to in my last post. For example you could argue that using blizzard during a grab is a kind of wobbling as you can't escape during it, but I'm pretty sure no one wants that to be banned. I don't really think anyone should try to ban it in the first place.

It's funny though. I used to not use wobbling, because I thought it would slow down a match too much and that would not be fun at all. Then one day one of my fellow smashers said I should start duing it anyway just so that I could become better. Now I use it all the time because it's so damn good and I fell it really gives me an edge in the floaty match ups (mostly Samus, Doc/Luigi, and Marth which I otherwise find rather tough). I have also become really good at setting it/starting it out of mostly anything. It has even come down to when I get a grab in a friendly and want to try some new stuff out, some of the people I know simple SD after the grab even if I didn't get the KO because "if I had just used wobbling they would have lost a stock anyway". In other cases, mostly during tournament matches, we often just agree that when I start wobbling, I'll throw my opponent away followed by him SD'ing just to save time.

But in the end, I still think it is kind of lame. It does me good in tournaments, but it completely kills any momentum that has been build up during the match, and, in most cases, the hype goes with it. This can work in your favour, and porbably does most of the time, as it shuts down your opponent's confidence, but sometimes I feel it is not worth it if you have the momentum.

So yeah, don't really think you can/should ban it, but I kind of wish it didn't exist.


Anyway. I've been thining about ICs' match up lately and the differences between NTSC and PAL. For example, I saw that choknater gave Fox an advantage 60:40 over IC, and I'm wondering that it may be more even in PAL? You guys might not have a clue, as you don't play PAL (and in end, it all doesn't really matter much) but do you think that Fox' strong NTSC Up-smash, or even his longer up-B, are some of the tools that gives him the advantage in some situations? Like, I feel that a PAL IC can take Fox to PS or Yoshi's without too much trouble, but it looks like some of you guys think that these stages should be avoided. Do you think that Fox' up-smash does a significance difference on these stages? Also, does Fox' up-smash have shield stun in NTSC so that you can't punish OoS?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm also a PAL player, and I still think the match is in Fox's favour at least somewhat.

I usually 0 to death off a grab even if Wobbling is banned, cause I've practiced the various CGs and pseudo-CGs to death, so it doesn't really affect me either way. I just don't see a reason to ban it that couldn't be applied to other gay stuff that we allow.

 

[Tomber]

Okay, didn't know that. I would really like to know how get a 0 to death off a grab against Samus or one of the Marios though, haha. Especially because one of Denmark's best smashers mains Samus/Doc (or at least used to). I can beat him without wobbling sometimes, but it is really hard as I can only get like 40-50% off a grab at most when he is at low % (unless is I'm at an edge for hand offs), which isn't really as good as 0 to death.

This is not a problem against nearly any other character in the game, however, as ICs' other CHs can be used here. In those match ups, wobbling doesn't matter that much. It just makes it easier.

Btw, are you part of the TEC community? Your name seems familiar to me.

 

[choknater]

for samus if you do a grab combo, either try to put her above you or in a spot where you can stay close

i know it's dangerous because she can cc, dsmash, jabs, tilts etc. but you gotta stay fairly close

 

[Tomber]

Yeah, having Samus over you is something you generally want to.

I don't think you have to stay close to her, however. As I see it, then ICs can outcamp Samus with ice block and blizzard. I find that Samus has a hard time approaching in general, but if you shoot at her she kind of have to which gives you the advantage. This still works at shorter distance of course and you want to be close enough to punish her moves anyway, but I don't think being close to Samus is that much better then being away from her as long as you still control the center on the stage. But then again, the Samus player that I play against doesn't use that many missiles which may make being farther away easier.

 

[Sorto]

So I was reading through old threads. And I saw that the IC pummel speed and some move hitstuns were different in the different versions of melee (I just saw this in old threads, so sorry if I am misinformed). Anyway, because of this, I was curious, does these changes make wobbling or blizzobling any more lienent in any version(s) specifically?

 

[choknater]

samus destroys ic's in the projectile battle. ice blocks, however, are pretty good at disrupting her rhythm on the ground when it comes to shooting missiles. doesn't really stop her from shooting them though.

 

[knightpraetor]

"I usually 0 to death off a grab even if Wobbling is banned, cause I've practiced the various CGs and pseudo-CGs to death, so it doesn't really affect me either way. I just don't see a reason to ban it that couldn't be applied to other gay stuff that we allow.
"

how do you zero to death if the fox can just ASDI the dthrow dair automatically to get out and then they queue roll away?

I mean I find that even though mahone knows how to queue he rarely does it correctly, but from testing I was of the impression that fox could always get out free on ICs chaingrab unless they wobble. Granted you can just dsmash/fsmash if the fox is DIing away (is dsmash preferred? i think i'm still using fsmash), but i thought that was one of the big advantages fox had over falco when fighting IC (that he can get out of CG relatively easily)


also i've spent a lot of hours training wobbling in the last few weeks to learn it..but as a marth main I don't really think it helps the balance much. Mainly marth, peach and fox have much harder matchups with wobbling legal, and even characters like sheik are now much less likely to get out because they don't have to do handoffs when they run out of space near a ledge or anything super hard like that.

That said, I really don't think it makes much of a difference against sheik and falco. And I think that even though it hurts marth a lot, the bigger problem is that it makes all the non top 6 getting utterly ***** by ICs.

So I guess if we don't mind shifting the balance of the tiers a little and pissing all the mid-high tiers mains off even more than they get fighting sheik then i guess it's ok

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Okay, didn't know that. I would really like to know how get a 0 to death off a grab against Samus or one of the Marios though, haha. Especially because one of Denmark's best smashers mains Samus/Doc (or at least used to). I can beat him without wobbling sometimes, but it is really hard as I can only get like 40-50% off a grab at most when he is at low % (unless is I'm at an edge for hand offs), which isn't really as good as 0 to death.

This is not a problem against nearly any other character in the game, however, as ICs' other CHs can be used here. In those match ups, wobbling doesn't matter that much. It just makes it easier.

"I usually 0 to death off a grab even if Wobbling is banned, cause I've practiced the various CGs and pseudo-CGs to death, so it doesn't really affect me either way. I just don't see a reason to ban it that couldn't be applied to other gay stuff that we allow.
"

how do you zero to death if the fox can just ASDI the dthrow dair automatically to get out and then they queue roll away?

I mean I find that even though mahone knows how to queue he rarely does it correctly, but from testing I was of the impression that fox could always get out free on ICs chaingrab unless they wobble. Granted you can just dsmash/fsmash if the fox is DIing away (is dsmash preferred? i think i'm still using fsmash), but i thought that was one of the big advantages fox had over falco when fighting IC (that he can get out of CG relatively easily)

The trick is just mixing up all the different CG options you have to screw with DI.

At mid % you can do the charge Fsmash > dthrow > regrab against Fox and it's basically pick your poison if you can edge-guard confidently.

You can tech-chase with dthrow and cover a lot of options with Nana, makes it very easy to get a re-grab.

My main goal is getting them near the ledge, then I just hand-off. But I also hand-off on-stage because you can follow up Nana's fthrow/dthrow easily, and bthrow/uthrow as well depending on character and %.

Dthrow > hit them with something (up tilt, blizzard, jab, fair spike) is surprisingly effective and often lets you get a re-grab.

I also usually throw in "a wobble" every time I grab to tack on damage.

Summary:
It really comes down to maximizing damage in a grab with wobbles, blizzard and charged smashes (not all in one grab, cause they'd mash out lol), following up tech-chases and edge-guard intelligently and luck with the hand-off.

Btw, are you part of the TEC community? Your name seems familiar to me.

Not sure what TEC is, but my name comes from the name of a book, so...

 

[knightpraetor]

"
At mid % you can do the charge Fsmash > dthrow > regrab against Fox and it's basically pick your poison if you can edge-guard confidently.
"

i have no clue what this means. could you explain in detail please?

 

[Tomber]

@Grim Tuesday: As I said, the problem isn't Fox. It is the floaties. I really can't see how it is possible to get a true 0 to death off a grab on a floaty without wobbling even with the stuff you mentioned. It is do-able against fast fallers, though.

TEC = The elite connection, btw. A gaming clan I used to be part of. Quite a few australian people are members too. Maybe you know EXC355UM, Godly-Effect, or Dekar?

"I usually 0 to death off a grab even if Wobbling is banned, cause I've practiced the various CGs and pseudo-CGs to death, so it doesn't really affect me either way. I just don't see a reason to ban it that couldn't be applied to other gay stuff that we allow.
"

how do you zero to death if the fox can just ASDI the dthrow dair automatically to get out and then they queue roll away?
(that he can get out of CG relatively easily)

^Maybe his opponents just DI his throws wrong. Or maybe he does like Chu. Seriously, that guy gets away with so many things that shouldn't work. Like, how can he get the d-throw dair to work on Marth so freaquently?

samus destroys ic's in the projectile battle. ice blocks, however, are pretty good at disrupting her rhythm on the ground when it comes to shooting missiles. doesn't really stop her from shooting them though.

I really don't think it's that bad. ICs can shoot through Samus missiles (one block hits the missiles, one goes for Samus) and destroy the missiles in other ways too which helps a lot. Also, Samus can (ground)cancel her missiles into other moves which IC can't. I'd say this makes it even more risky to stay close to Samus compared to shooting thingks at her from a distance

Anyway, I might be wrong, though. Might just be this particular Samus player I guess. I'll try to focus more on the stuff you've mentioned next time I fight a Samus.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm confident in mid-range projectile battles against Samus. As Tomber notes, ice blocks are a good response to missiles and even when she gets a couple out in a row (e.g. landing missile -> ground missile), you can just light-shield and be totally safe. Assuming good play on both sides, projectile wars pretty much amount to stalemates, but I like awkward stalemates with ICs since they let you be picky about when you approach.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Praetor
Grab, pummel to desync, charge fsmash, dthrow, release fsmash, grab.

If your opponent DIs in or doesn't DI you get the fsmash damage + re-grab, if they DI away from the grab they get destroyed by the fsmash.

Tomber: My opponents DI fine, but I was over-estimating my abilities. Against floaties I just combo into hand-offs whenever possible.

I might have joined TEC when I played HL2: Deathmatch competitively, not sure.

 

[choknater]

haha yeah maybe u guys have better opinions than me

i just got 3-stocked in tournament and counter picked young link and ran away

 

[Engo]

Noob IC questions:
Is the down throw downair cg timing always the same or does it depend on anything like weight/percent? Is it possible to change the time or height of the downair to deal with a marth DI'ing up and away for example?

Also I'm having trouble learning the downthrow fullhop downair cg any advice on how you guys do it?

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

just go ganon

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

the only way you can change your dthrow dair is sh or fh dair and fastfall, fastfall or not, lcancel or not.

 

[Tomber]

Noob IC questions:
Is the down throw downair cg timing always the same or does it depend on anything like weight/percent? Is it possible to change the time or height of the downair to deal with a marth DI'ing up and away for example?

Also I'm having trouble learning the downthrow fullhop downair cg any advice on how you guys do it?

Down throw is affected by the weight of the character you are throwing, yes. The heavier the character is, the longer it takes for the throw to end. This is also the case with back throw, where up throw and forward throw are not affected.
I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but it goes something like:

Puff - really fast throw
Fox, Falco - fast throw
Marth, Sheik, Peach, Doc/Luigi - slower throw
Falcon, Samus, Ganon - really slow throw

Fox being a bit faster then Falco, Marth a bit faster then the Marios etc. This is just what I know from experience. You can probably look it up somewhere.
You could say that It is harder to do the down-throw-dair on lighter characters, as you have to do the dair faster. If you are used to the weight on e.g. Fox/Falco then you might find it harder to do on more heavy characters (this used to happen to me).

The procent doesn't really matter that much. The higher procent, the smaller becomes the window for your dair to work in (I hope that made any sense), but when speaking about the d-throw-dair CG, it doesn't change a lot compared other stuff like Hand offs where higher procent really makes the regrab harder.

When doing the CG you should either try to time it so you do the dair as soon as you leave the ground, or you can time it so you do the dair in the very end of your jump (right before you hit the ground again.) Both ways should work. Personally I use use the first way because by doing it this way you can L-cancel your dair with the same action as you do your regrab (that being pressing the Z button. You can L-cancel with this as well as R/L.). I believe Chu does it the other way.

About Marth DI'ing. The d-throw-dair CG is very escapable, so if your opponent knows what he is doing, you should not be able to get the regrab. However, if you know how your opponent DI you can use it for your advantage. If you know your Marth player DIs up and away every time, then do a reverse d-throw-dair and follow it by with something like F-smash. If a Fox/Falco player DIs down and away every time, then abuse their DI and do a down-smash or f-smash to send them off the stage. Abusing your opponent's DI is something any IC player should do.

I'm not sure what you mean with "downthrow fullhop downair cg". You should always shothop downair unless you're doing a reverse CG (and even then, it is possible to do the reverse with a shorthop which has great applications in some situations). If you talk about the fullhop reverse CG then practice it on Ganon/Falcon first (it is against these two it really works anyway). Press down for the down-throw and run towards your opponent just afterwards with Nana. Do you fullhop and do the dair just after the throw animation ends. If the dair sends Ganon/Falcon back to Popo, then you're doing it right. If it send him away, you're not jumping far enough behind him. If the dair only does damage and no knockback, then you're doing it too fast.


I hope some of it made any sense. I'm kind of tired.
Besides, you probably knew some/most of it, but what ever.

 

[Engo]

Yes thank you , you answered pretty much everything I wanted to know.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So my regular opponents learned to DI out of dthrow dair CGs really well (peach, marth, spacies)
What I do now?

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

So my regular opponents learned to DI out of dthrow dair CGs really well (peach, marth, spacies)
What I do now?

mix in smashes and laugh when they are DI'ing away. then start using it again, its a mindgame.

 

[Engo]

IC's grabs are psychological warfare man.

 

[choknater]

yea

m2k was trying to ask me "which way is the ideal DI"

i told him "it's a mixup"

but he insisted that there must be a full proof direction

i said "up i guess...."

then i dthrow up smashed him

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

yea

m2k was trying to ask me "which way is the ideal DI"

i told him "it's a mixup"

but he insisted that there must be a full proof direction

i said "up i guess...."

then i dthrow up smashed him

lol this is a great story, good **** **** that kid

 

[Nintendude]

m2k always asks me the same things too lol. I'm really surprised that a player of his caliber still gets confused not only by how to DI th echaingrabs, but even solo IC grab combos and chases. I tend to avoid giving him direct answers in case I ever have to play him for real.

 

[choknater]

norcal/socal escape everything these days

i really want to try to come up with new combos that cover all DI and tech options

 

[Kyu Puff]

everybody escapes everything these days

for foxes that di away and buffer spotdodge/roll:

So, the b-throw -> b-air thing works really well against DI away. And it looks cool. After ~40% they might be able to jump out (although I haven't tested it extensively), but for style points you can still b-throw -> nana f-air -> popo f-air -> nana d-smash (on missed tech).

the input is something like b-throw -> jump (roughly same time as the b-throw) -> input f-air. it's still escapable, but at least gives you a mix-up so you can deter them from just holding away on the control stick at low percentages

once they're above 40% you can start mixing in f-smash and f-smash -> regrab

 

[choknater]

that's a stylish hard read lol