Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

Reading these IC discussions make me want to start getting serious about my brawl ICs. I love Melee ICs though. How have you guys done in recent tournaments? And is there anything holding back Melee ICs? I see them in the upper part of mid-high tier, do you guys think they are like Jigglypuff where they can place well, but haven't been used a top top level yet?

i have been doing only decently at norcal stuff, 5th~9th area

i think ic's are tough to win with because of uphill matchups (fox, peach) and other generally very difficult ones (falco, falcon)

 

[cannedbread]

Reading these IC discussions make me want to start getting serious about my brawl ICs. I love Melee ICs though. How have you guys done in recent tournaments? And is there anything holding back Melee ICs? I see them in the upper part of mid-high tier, do you guys think they are like Jigglypuff where they can place well, but haven't been used a top top level yet?

ics are like the most frustrating character to play but they have sooooo much potential and they're so cute and interesting.i think it's hard to win as ics because almost every option they have except their bnb is really unsafe. ics are so odd because the reason their midhigh is nana, and nana is why it's so hard to be anything higher than midhigh.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Reading these IC discussions make me want to start getting serious about my brawl ICs. I love Melee ICs though. How have you guys done in recent tournaments? And is there anything holding back Melee ICs? I see them in the upper part of mid-high tier, do you guys think they are like Jigglypuff where they can place well, but haven't been used a top top level yet?

Regarding tourneys: generally top 2 at Socal locals and top 8 or so at regionals, although I did worse than usual at the last big tourney I went to.

What holds ICs back: a few match-up issues. Different ICs mains will tell you different things, but pretty much all of them really dislike at least a couple match-ups.

Regarding the potential thing: I think ICs are good enough to win really big tourneys. Wobbles, the best ICs, almost always does exceptionally, and most (although not all) of the people who do beat him are simply better than him. I would wager it's true that the main reason you don't see an ICs player as successful as Hbox (to go along with your Puff example) is indeed that there aren't any ICs mains quite at that level.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

ice climbers have a ridiculous learning curve and i can say that low lvl fox>low level ics.
my peach is actually pretty solid for teams but i dont really have that sense of urgency ice climbers give me
i feel i could shape up my ice climbers to perform better in singles, i have alot of tricks in my bag now in terms of desyncs but i just dont have the timing on wobbling handoffs dair dthrow that i used to, i have made good breakthroughs by playing other characters like buffering with cstick oos that i had been distracted from by the wealth of knowledge this website has on ics. are there any other real breakthroughs that really meant alot to you?

 

[Binx]

When Chu was at the top of his game he was beating everyone except m2k who at the time only PC Chris could beat, not even 100% of the time. If Chu had known some of the iceblock and blizzard tricks we use vs Marth now he may have been able to win 4-5 nationals at the time.

That being said the skill level is much higher now, I think for the most part ICs can win any match up but you don't have the leeway that some other characters would give you to make mistakes. Chu shows pretty consistently that if you have really good spacing and a good understanding of their basic moveset you can get people off the edge and kill them just as well as most other characters. Then you have wobbles that shows you that you can kill almost any character in a single combo at almost any percent at almost any spot on the stage, you combine these two things and no one is going to be beating you, but thats what it takes to be the best, and there is only so much room at the top.

 

[choknater]

chu is just so good wth

 

[Divinokage]

Binx, I think you mean there's plenty of room being on top. It's just that unfortunately too many players have either too many mental blocks to allow them to get to that point or they just don't understand / play enough of the game to get there.

 

[voorhese]

why down and back?

because it cancels my jab for me, i don't have to time jab -> down -> jab, just press A at the right time.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Could somebody give me a few matches that show how to do ICs marth and ICs sheik?
Twould be much appreciated <3

 

[Binx]

Binx, I think you mean there's plenty of room being on top. It's just that unfortunately too many players have either too many mental blocks to allow them to get to that point or they just don't understand / play enough of the game to get there.

I don't think many people really put forth the level of dedication that they could or people would be much better at this game. Given the current level of competition and the fact that we see the same 4-6 players finishing in the top 3 of every major tournament, I can say with relative certainty that there is a large skill gap between those 5 or so players and the rest of us. None of them play Ice Climbers and none of the Ice Climber mains have spent the time and effort (or maybe just havent found the correct method of practice) to play near perfectly to overcome those players.

But just for arguments sake I will say that there isn't much room at the top, if you consider the top say, the 10 best players, then no matter who is up there its still 10 people even if they get moved in and out of that group.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think wobbles is top ten...
I think he can get to at least KK level.
Unless he stops entering and becomes a fulltime commentator

 

[Wobbles]

I'm in the process of a final shot at targeting my weaknesses and eliminating them. I like commentating more right now, but it's too damn hard to be around people who play and not play myself, especially if I don't have immediate access to the mic >_>

IDGAF what people think about me (good or bad) anymore, I'm just interested in understanding what causes my plateaus and problems to surface time and again.

 

[Binx]

Wobbles is definitely top 10, he may even be in the top 5ish, then again I'm a wobbles fanboy so =D

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I'm in the process of a final shot at targeting my weaknesses and eliminating them. I like commentating more right now, but it's too damn hard to be around people who play and not play myself, especially if I don't have immediate access to the mic >_>

IDGAF what people think about me (good or bad) anymore, I'm just interested in understanding what causes my plateaus and problems to surface time and again.

I have mad respect for you, I looked at a few articles from your old blogs, and they are amazing. Also, that guide to Melee you wrote, I think I read it a few years ago, and I still have it with me and check over it every once in a while to see how little I know in comparison to the top players.

 

[Smasher89]

Wobbles- If you need help, just pm me the matches you have a hard time understanding what happens and I might be able to help or give my opinion.

 

[Wobbles]

EXPLAIN FALCO TO ME.

For the most part I win Falco-ICs just because of risk/reward. Better DI than my opponent, a little more patience in clutch situations... I tend to have trouble with Falcos regardless of skill level. ICs lack a good move in front of them that they can use to negate shield pressure, and can only do so much rolling before Nana gets clipped, or Falco gets his read. Powershields are less effective for them because of the way the laser still hits Nana. The only time they demonstrably *win* in any situation is with a perfectly spaced u-air or b-air, which relies on extreme precision and/or guesswork.

So if anybody knows how to concretely beat or adapt to the bird, please tell me. I don't really know how to do it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This is exactly how I feel, so I am seeking the same advice haha

 

[Tomber]

Powershields are less effective for them because of the way the laser still hits Nana.

Does this happen to you often? It rarely happens to me and I go for a lot for powershields against Falco. Maybe it's because I always run into the lasers when I try to powershield (not only with ICs), but I don't really think it is much harder to reflect the lasers with ICs compared to most other characters.

 

[choknater]

i wish i could help but i got obliterated by zhu

i thought i knew but i had no idea lol

(even tho he is the only falco i lose to....)

 

[Binx]

Wobbles can you clarify what situation you are having trouble in? Are you thinking out of shield options that aren't a grab when Falco is doing pillar stuff?

In my experience I would say there really aren't any good options in that spot, if they land far enough away sometimes I go for a shield drop jab but even then I have been punished for it, with either crouch cancels or just another fast aerial. I was doing short hop dairs for a bit until my buddy learned to cc fsmash me.

So now I feel like I have 2 options, I can roll or I can stand there in shield and hope he reacts to a roll early and try to get a grab off him running into grab range while I'm in shield, sometimes I tilt my shield away a little to make him think I am about to roll but sometimes this causes me to get shield poked, although thats more my fault than his obviously there is some subtlety that I am missing a little bit.

I'm wondering if you could hit with the hammer of a neutral b maybe, have you tried any stuff with iceblock blizzard or squall hammer while being pressured? Maybe even jump away and dual squall right before you hit the ground or something that might throw people off.

 

[Smasher89]

I kinda understand which situation it is.

It should be beaten by having Nana behind you charging a smash, that way you should be able to hit falco when he is hitting your shield and it can trade (with nanas fsmash if released with proper timing). But Popo will be free to move and falco probably in a situation where he have to tech. He shouldnt be able to go deep into ICs since that´s begging for being doubleteamed.

That´s something I used when I played my best, however I was too inconsistent when I didnt practice like8h a day against other players :D(which is doable at tournaments unless you beat your opponents too hard so they quit)

Regarding finding patterns there is some nice stuff that I rather not post on the boards due to the dynamic might change when the no icplayers reads how it works.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I would just focus on bair OoS (wavedashing for positioning) when falco tries to laser and/or after he hits your shield as a safe attack (falco is a lot safer in front of your shield than behind your shield).

 

[Kyu Puff]

something i noticed is that grab outranges shine. it would probably take a lot of practice, but i think it's theoretically possible to sdi the d-air away, and either shieldgrab (if he d-airs into your shield) or wd away (if he's out of grab range).

unrelated to shield pressure, late u-air is pretty good (as in right before you land). it works a lot like u-tilt, but it's less punishable (whiffed or on shield) and you can do it from different angles (from platform drop or jumping over lasers).

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm in the process of a final shot at targeting my weaknesses and eliminating them. I like commentating more right now, but it's too damn hard to be around people who play and not play myself, especially if I don't have immediate access to the mic >_>

IDGAF what people think about me (good or bad) anymore, I'm just interested in understanding what causes my plateaus and problems to surface time and again.

Please don't misunderstand, I absolutely loved your commentary at FC, but the thought of you quiting makes me sad inside :'(

I really enjoy your commentary though and would like to see/hear more of it, but keep playing too ^^

Because you are ****ing wobbles.
Therefore; the best.

 

[john!]

don't quit robbles

unless you really really want to

then i guess it's ok

 

[choknater]

pretty sure wobbles didn't say anything about quitting in that post

keep it up rob, i need to steal your tech some more

 

[Binx]

Wobbles Im gonna play Jetfour on saturday, what is his weakness?

 

[Wobbles]

He plays very goofy. It's extremely tricky and sometimes involves a lot of delayed action, and he's also willing to go for grabs (and he's very aggressive about going for them against SoPo, IIRC). This means he will sometimes give you extra room to set up de-synced activities while he baits out attacks. It also sacrifices efficiency at times.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I always hear AZ people call him the "weird-style" player of the state.

 

[Nintendude]

I think AZ in general is full of weird non-conventional players.

I'm going to a MD/VA tourney tomorrow. Last week I lost to Chillin in game 3 so I'm gonna try and prevent a repeat of that. A few too many dropped edgeguards and punishment opportunities cost me once again

My other obstacle in the region is DoH. I've tried practicing the Peach ditto matchup with him and I'm really not sure if it's my best bet or not. Last week I lost to him 3-1 in LFs in Peach dittos.

It's just such a stressful matchup with ICs. Chu told me to use more full jump Bair to counter Peach while floating. Have you guys had success with this strategy?

 

[Wobbles]

Depends on float height, obviously.

Whiffing a full jump aerial can be very awful in that matchup though, because if she gets beneath you and you don't have an easy escape route you'll eat aerials or she'll just park herself in your landing space and wait to d-smash you. And DoH knows how to kill Nana very well so even a small error like "choosing to full jump at the wrong time" could cost you massive momentum and potential for he entire stock.

There's a lot of factors involved and it's hard to describe via text >__> If you have to move *in* to her to do the b-air, then that involves a WD and can take awhile. This is best if she's floating far away and is a little complacent. It also DEFINITELY puts you over her if you whiff, which is scary. If you are full jumping into her at close range... you should be getting n-aired, or jabbed, or something. I almost always prefer to retreat as I b-air, because it gives you the coverage to land and be safe.

But then, I take big swings and risks when I play because I frequently forget all the things I just told you. So I wouldn't use *me* as a great example.

edit:

Regarding AZ, we've all got a bit of weirdness to us. Jetfour probably does the most non-useful extraneous movements, which throw lots of people off. I use the opportunity to just hit him, typically.

 

[Nintendude]

Good insight, Rob. The more I play DoH the more I realize the importance of properly reacting to each of Peach's float heights. There basically seems to be 3 common heights:

1. Ground float
I think the best response to this is to just shoot some stuff to force her to do something else. I have a bad habit of trying to outrange her but the spacing is so delicate and screwing up in this situation is really costly.

2. Medium float (like Marth's head level-ish)
This is the height that bothers me the most. Her floating Dair can be annoying to get around and I think just in general the zone that Peach occupies when at this height is the hardest for ICs to control. This is the height that forces me to give up stage and it often indirectly forces punishment by getting me trapped somewhere. Do you have any good advice for dealing with this? I find that proper use of this float height is what makes certain Peach players extremely hard to deal with.

3. High float
Basically at like Peach short-hop height. Full jump bair can hit her out of this. Sometimes I've had success with surprise nairs and up-smashes. I don't think short hop Uair works too well b/c she can get her dair out faster. Generally when Peach is in this zone I feel like she's applying the least amount of pressure.

I'm sort of just thinking aloud here. DoH told me your experience vs. him basically taught you how to never lose to Peaches, and I'm hoping to achieve the same thing. This is the first time there's been a local Peach player for me to practice with.

 

[choknater]

my response to a peach that is consistent at medium floating is to run away and pray i don't get shield stabbed

but seriously though i'd also like that height addressed. i'm usually stuck at that point

 

[Wobbles]

Her middle float height is not THAT bad, once you are accustomed to it. There's a sweet-spot where you can't get under her to do anything because d-air tickles your parka, but if she's d-airing then she's leaving herself open for b-air. And it's more okay to use it in this situation because she takes longer to land, and if she chases you with a double jump you can forward+b over her. Full jump n-airing straight into her works above low percents, where she can't respond to the low stun by just hitting you before your lag is done. Peaches don't like to n-air at this kind of height, and odds are if your n-air is going you will trade with one of her d-air hits and that's a big percent deficit for her.

High float height is easiest, I think. You can't blizzard but you CAN move more freely and cross her up, and also tag her with u-air from beneath.

I hate low floats when she's in your face. Too much control/momentum ;_; auto-canceled b-air, fading away from her, usually keeps you safe. It can also give you distance.

The turning f-tilt desync is a wonderful tool for this matchup, because you want to spend a lot of time facing backwards (for b-airing) but you'll occasionally want to set up blizzard walls. WD away->turning f-tilt->blizzard is the business for switching stances quickly, so to speak.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm going to use my ICs in tournament for the first time tomorrow ^^

I'll try to get some games recorded for critique and such (I really need a critique lol)

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

good luck vanir,
what do u guys think about a pivot desync with popo DA'ing and nana charging fsmash. if you hit their shield with the dash attack you can continue charging the fsmash and catch them moving out of shield or shield stab them. if they get hit by only the dash attack you can follow that up(depending on char/percent) or if they get hit by both it can put u in a ledge guard opportunity/k.o. If they hit popo with something then nana gets them. seems like a pretty safe desync and is not too hard in terms of imput, just tap in that direction and press a at the right time

 

[choknater]

it is good but i cant pivot 100% of the time

go for it if you can do it consistently

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

i find it easier than other pivot desyncs, also if you shield after the dash attack it is really safe

 

[ChivalRuse]

I need to blizzard more. Like, much, much more.

 

[choknater]

haha yeah dude, it's so good

also where have you been