Social General Ice Climber Chat

[dj asakura]

Alright, i started making this EXACT SAME thread a few hours ago, but then decided the IC forums has been doing pretty good and didn't need a general help place with which very basic questions can be asked.

Of course, while I'm gone, I believe 3 or 4 threads were made about the exact same things which could be answered by clicking any number of stickies here OR reading other threads. But instead, we got these new ones that aren't needed.

I'm not going to request this be stickied, someone else can if they believe it should be. BUT my reason for this is to avoid making new threads for things that DON'T NEED whole new threads.

So by all means, chat away, just stop making new threads unless you ACTUALLY NEED TO.

That is all.

 

[Xephalon]

Woot! go asakura! you rock!
so hows the ice climbing going along?

 

[Reside]

so...hmm...

whats everybody's stance on using an AR to have solo popo and allow that for low tear?

 

[Zjiin]

so...hmm...

whats everybody's stance on using an AR to have solo popo and allow that for low tear?

I think Popo solo isn't very low tier at all. A couple of years ago, i told a friend that ICs were broken and to prove it, i would kill nana off every stock and play with just popo. Single IC groundgame is just 222222good.

 

[d2Law89]

Lol, Yeah, I have to agree with Zjiin on their ground game--especially if its against a fast faller. Heck, you don't even need Nana to chaingrab.

 

[choknater]

Btw, Red/Orange front ice climber can be Solo Nana. Gotta have some love for Nana.

And yes I would agree that solo would probably fall somewhere in low tier. Maybe even bottom tier. He can be played very well, but that's only because of the skill of the player (like other low tier players doing well lol.)

 

[Binx]

I dunno, I do really well with my solo popo, unlike most low tiers he still has fast damaging smash attacks, great ground speed, and really good priority, his grab range is a little bad but he makes up for it in speed, also his recovery is terrible but not so bad that he couldnt make it back to the stage against other low tiers.

 

[Zjiin]

I dunno, I do really well with my solo popo, unlike most low tiers he still has fast damaging smash attacks, great ground speed, and really good priority, his grab range is a little bad but he makes up for it in speed, also his recovery is terrible but not so bad that he couldnt make it back to the stage against other low tiers.

i would go as far as to say that the solo recovery can be decent against some high tiers. I know at least against marth.

 

[Lixivium]

i would go as far as to say that the solo recovery can be hopeless against some high tiers. I know at least against marth.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Zjiin]

Fixed that for you.

lol, funny.

Seriously though, if you Over+B over someone edge-guarding, and with the remaining spin, creep towards him and bump him as he waits for you to lag, it will give you time to escape. Works on high tiers all the time. Just mix it up.

 

[Reside]

I think solo popo would fall just above low tier (solo nana as chokonator pointed out though may be just above samus on tier list XD)

If your opponent knows how to play against IC's at all, their recovery can be gimped toooo easily and there is no argument that can change my mind on that.

 

[Lixivium]

lol, funny.

Seriously though, if you Over+B over someone edge-guarding, and with the remaining spin, creep towards him and bump him as he waits for you to lag, it will give you time to escape. Works on high tiers all the time. Just mix it up.

That's assuming you have the option of mixing it up - that you're close enough where you can airdodge or Up-B sweetspot. But let's face it, if you have to solo-squall on stage, you're basically dead unless they screw up.

 

[Kyu Puff]

But it can get annoying to kill them. If you can Squall high enough over their heads they won't be able to smash or tilt you, and aerials have much lower knockback (usually). So you can Squall perfectly over their head, and DI appropriately, recovering becomes much easier.

 

[Binx]

Marth will kill you when you squall towards the edge no matter what if they are smart. If you are high enough you can sometimes stall a little and just fall downwards to get below them, this only works if there is a platform, Marth though if he waits for the right times can forward or bair you back off, or can easily f-smash you. I am completely serious though I think solo IC is as good as Mario if not better, you sacrifice a little bit of recovery for more speed and a better grab, although you have a weakness for projectiles that Mario does not share. ICs can tech chase though which is amazing, I have incorporated this into my game a lot lately and I am getting better and better at predicting and punishing techs. This skill is what makes falcon so deadly and IC can do it better than almost every character that isnt named Chuck Captain Falcon Norris.

 

[Lixivium]

I am completely serious though I think solo IC is as good as Mario if not better, you sacrifice a little bit of recovery for more speed and a better grab, although you have a weakness for projectiles that Mario does not share. ICs can tech chase though which is amazing, I have incorporated this into my game a lot lately and I am getting better and better at predicting and punishing techs. This skill is what makes falcon so deadly and IC can do it better than almost every character that isnt named Chuck Captain Falcon Norris.

Mario can chaingrab and tech chase too you know. Everybody can tech chase to some extent, and tech chasing with IC's doesn't compare to Falcon's at all, because both Falcon's D-air and grab sets up for a lot more than Popo's D-smash and grab.

I don't get why you all think so highly of Soloing. Single IC has a bad approach, pathetic recovery, and very little comboing ability. I guess you're all wizards at solo chaingrabbing but I can never get more than 15-20 damage out of it at best. You really have to surprise people in order to do well with just Popo, because the fact is you become a much worse character. I remember a match between PC (Fox) and Chu (IC's) where Chu was ahead 2 stocks to 1, but the moment PC took off one stock and then killed Nana, even though he was behind by about 70%, you could feel a sense of dread, because the matchup was now so uneven. And Chu did in fact lose.

 

[Xephalon]

i think Solo ICs would go into the category of top of low cause of strong ground game and that not so great aerial game

 

[Zjiin]

Mario can chaingrab and tech chase too you know. Everybody can tech chase to some extent, and tech chasing with IC's doesn't compare to Falcon's at all, because both Falcon's D-air and grab sets up for a lot more than Popo's D-smash and grab.

I don't get why you all think so highly of Soloing. Single IC has a bad approach, pathetic recovery, and very little comboing ability. I guess you're all wizards at solo chaingrabbing but I can never get more than 15-20 damage out of it at best. You really have to surprise people in order to do well with just Popo, because the fact is you become a much worse character. I remember a match between PC (Fox) and Chu (IC's) where Chu was ahead 2 stocks to 1, but the moment PC took off one stock and then killed Nana, even though he was behind by about 70%, you could feel a sense of dread, because the matchup was now so uneven. And Chu did in fact lose.

Solo ICs have more than you think. Bad appraoch? No way, i love appraoching most of the characters with some SHFFL aerials. This links easily to jab-grab combos. Once you're in, you can do some serious damage. A good mix of mindgames+Bairs+ dsmashes = for good edgeguarding too. Chain grabbing should not be the extent of your IC mentallity, and if it is, there's little you can do with tht having only Popo. Great groundgame with decent air moves (Bair/Uair/Nair) make for more than a low tier character.

Everyone i play is so obsessed with killing nana, since a lot of IC players have no popo skills. (I even played someone at a SMYM that suicided once i killed his nana) Let them target nana, and you get all the openers to combos you need. And if they do kill her, you should have a good idea of what you can and can't do anymore. I mean honestly, i hope that no IC main actually gives up when his nana gets cheaped out, because you're gonna be in for a lot of disapointment.

Popo+Nana = cheap & overpowered advantage
Popo Solo = still a very good chance depedning on the matchup
Nana Solo = wait for it..... wait for it.... GAME! you lost!

 

[dj asakura]

I'm going to agree with Zjinn. It just seems that far to many IC players think that once nana is gone, they've lost a stock.

A good solo Popo catches EVERYONE off gaurd because no one expects it. Losing Nana is **** near the best mindgame ever if your Popo knows what to do by himself.

 

[choknater]

I'm going to agree with Zjinn. It just seems that far to many IC players think that once nana is gone, they've lost a stock.

A good solo Popo catches EVERYONE off gaurd because no one expects it. Losing Nana is **** near the best mindgame ever if your Popo knows what to do by himself.

And what if they DO expect it, and they DO know how to fight popo by himself? Then you're pretty much screwed. At least, that's how it almost always is for me. With solo, it's just a matter of pokes and survival.

 

[dj asakura]

honestly, would YOU ever expect someone to have a good popo....

I'm not saying they won't catch on quick but let's be honest, playing the IC's and playing popo is two pretty different things. yes, to a point, it is just pokes and survival. but when you're pokes do 20% plus combo potential and your survival is the 2nd best WD is the game, you've got a solid game to work with

I'm not saying you're popo is going to take off 2 or 3 stock, but i do believe you can pull off some solid damage.

a solo popo is only a gimp if you let it be

 

[psicicle]

ehh my solo popo is decent, I can take a stock sometimes off someone around my skill level, but on the tier list I would say that he is in between bottom and low tier. The only reason I am good with solo popo is because I play ICs a lot.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I played a guy in a tournament once that excelled at gimping Nana, and I beat him. Afterwards, he said I was better with one IC than I was with two. I don't know if that's a compliment or not.

 

[Binx]

Mario can chaingrab and tech chase too you know. Everybody can tech chase to some extent, and tech chasing with IC's doesn't compare to Falcon's at all, because both Falcon's D-air and grab sets up for a lot more than Popo's D-smash and grab.

I don't get why you all think so highly of Soloing. Single IC has a bad approach, pathetic recovery, and very little comboing ability. I guess you're all wizards at solo chaingrabbing but I can never get more than 15-20 damage out of it at best. You really have to surprise people in order to do well with just Popo, because the fact is you become a much worse character. I remember a match between PC (Fox) and Chu (IC's) where Chu was ahead 2 stocks to 1, but the moment PC took off one stock and then killed Nana, even though he was behind by about 70%, you could feel a sense of dread, because the matchup was now so uneven. And Chu did in fact lose.

I wasn't saying Popo was better than Fox... I was saying he deserves to be mid tier, the extra grab damage of having 2 doesnt make the character THAT much better, I love ICs and I play almost nothing but them, but honestly chain grabs arent all I do, especially since the players I am playing against DI out of them and play characters that are hard to CG like Marth and Samus and Peach. Your damage goes down by a lot but you can gimp some characters really badly, you can chain throw shiek you can combo fox and falco, you are free to powershield projectiles. There are plenty of match ups where Popo isnt that bad. Having Nana is what makes ICs 7th (although it should be 6th) place in the tier list, but I think they would only drop 3 or 4 spots w/o nana.

I played a guy in a tournament once that excelled at gimping Nana, and I beat him. Afterwards, he said I was better with one IC than I was with two. I don't know if that's a compliment or not.

I get this too, I think its just that you are faster when you are popo because you arent waiting for nana to catch up.

 

[Lixivium]

I wasn't saying Popo was better than Fox... I was saying he deserves to be mid tier, the extra grab damage of having 2 doesnt make the character THAT much better, I love ICs and I play almost nothing but them, but honestly chain grabs arent all I do, especially since the players I am playing against DI out of them and play characters that are hard to CG like Marth and Samus and Peach. Your damage goes down by a lot but you can gimp some characters really badly, you can chain throw shiek you can combo fox and falco, you are free to powershield projectiles. There are plenty of match ups where Popo isnt that bad. Having Nana is what makes ICs 7th (although it should be 6th) place in the tier list, but I think they would only drop 3 or 4 spots w/o nana.

Damage is only a minor issue.

You don't just get twice the damage with Nana (actually I think it's only about 1.75x since repeated attacks do less damage). More significantly, you get twice the DURATION and SHIELDSTUN. That makes your approaches with aerials and wavedash jabs/tilts/smashes much safer.

Having Nana means you have GUARANTEED followup/finisher out of grabs. Having only one shield means the opponent can now SHFFL into you with impunity. Although this is not a huge detriment, it takes away an automatic and easy advantage you once enjoyed.

Not to mention that your recovery becomes much more predictable without Nana.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Solo Popo imo is lower than Game and Watch, tier-wise.

They BOTH have predictable approaches(SHFFL fair vs WD). Both must employ lots of mind games to prevent them from being punished.

They both have predictable recoveries but GaW's is better because at least he can sweetspot.

I dunno who's grab range is better both Dthrow sets up nice combos for both.

GaW can't L-cancel 3 out of five of his aerials but still, his combo game is better.

GaW has better edgeguarding than SP.

SP has a better wavedash but they're both good.


I'd go further into detail but I'm typing this on the Wii.

In conclusion though, IC is two crappy characters combined and designed around the fact that you have two. Maybe SLIGHTLY overpowered when combined but the fact that you can gimp one of them so easily balances them out.

I have a roommate that believes that desynching IC makes them broken characters. It's gotten to the point where I'm like, " yeah, they're broken. GB2Sheik/Fox kthxbai" >_<

 

[dj asakura]

just throwing this out there.

i like doing empty f-air's l-canceled in smashes or grabs

 

[Zjiin]

Solo Popo imo is lower than Game and Watch, tier-wise

In conclusion though, IC is two crappy characters combined and designed around the fact that you have two. Maybe SLIGHTLY overpowered when combined but the fact that you can gimp one of them so easily balances them out.

Oh man, if you seriously believe this you are doing something terribly wrong with your ICs.

 

[Xephalon]

ICs are 2 great characters put together to make an awesome team, its just most ICs dont do well without nana is cause they're usually dependent upon nana or just doesnt play Single ICs as much as Dual

 

[PB&J]

i think if ur not good with just popo ur not that good..playing alot of pros made me play with just popo all the time so when nana dies i don't lose my moral i just fight smarter..i always tell my opponet they killed the wrong one, popo is not bottom or low tier he can def. be mid tier but i think if u suck with just popo u need to practice alot more because i take stocks with popo

 

[Binx]

i think if ur not good with just popo ur not that good..playing alot of pros made me play with just popo all the time so when nana dies i don't lose my moral i just fight smarter..i always tell my opponet they killed the wrong one, popo is not bottom or low tier he can def. be mid tier but i think if u suck with just popo u need to practice alot more because i take stocks with popo

I dont play against Pros by any means but when my Nana dies I just keep on fighting, my style of play doesn't change that much anyways except my grabs do less damage, of course you can no longer jab grab as easily but you are free to camp the ledge w/o worrying about nana killing herself or being vulnerable, waveland to shield or spot dodge or smash off the edge can be a great thing.

Also just grab like you would with Mario and see what you can follow up, U throw and Dthrow are awesome even without nana.

Anyways this would be a good spot to post random tips and combos you make up so if you think of anything wierd you can tell us all so someone can try it I was thinking about nana blizzard to popo nair to nana short hop forward blizzard, with good timing I was thinking it might be possible to get multiple repitions, I know it can be DIed out of but just curious if its relatively safe once the first blizzard hits.

Another random tidbit, if your opponent DIs up and away during blizzard you can't grab them because they are too high off the ground(at least against Marth) and if it is marth he can fair you right after before you can grab, so what I like to do is just wavedash and fsmash, make sure to time it at the end of the blizzard though otherwise they may be "saved" by the last hit of the blizzard and you are still in stun and cant follow up.

 

[Zjiin]

i think if ur not good with just popo ur not that good..playing alot of pros made me play with just popo all the time so when nana dies i don't lose my moral i just fight smarter..i always tell my opponet they killed the wrong one, popo is not bottom or low tier he can def. be mid tier but i think if u suck with just popo u need to practice alot more because i take stocks with popo

I second this. I practice regularly with the local pros and they are almost experts at cheaping out nana. As a result of this, my popo game is sharp as hell.

 

[Mars-]

Rofl, taking out nana is the best way to beat ICs. Then it evens the match down to 1vs1. Still kinda hard.

 

[Zjiin]

Rofl, taking out nana is the best way to beat ICs. Then it evens the match down to 1vs1. Still kinda hard.

Way to state the obvious.

 

[Wobbles]

That's why you need SoPo skills. People will be very focused on killing Nana; if you can't fight without her, then you're losing a big part of your game. You also lose the ability to use her as bait, since you'll be so afraid of her dying, sot that's another weakness.

 

[Zjiin]

That's why you need SoPo skills. People will be very focused on killing Nana; if you can't fight without her, then you're losing a big part of your game. You also lose the ability to use her as bait, since you'll be so afraid of her dying, sot that's another weakness.

Haha, your avatar. It's a shame we didn't get to play at all at OC3. Not that i would have liked to do IC dittos but other matches would a been fun.

 

[pockyD]

sure, solo climber can beat up on people you're measurably better than

solo climber still can induce mistakes very well (though his punishing power is worse than halved) due to his great ground mobility

However, he has pretty much no reasonable options for approach, a very lousy projectile game, and a mediocre defensive game owing to poor range / bad dash dance, so if the opponent plays smart and minimizes mistakes, there is not much popo can do.

Solo climber also can't gimp at all, is extremely easy to get gimped on the other end, and has a very hard time killing anyone who stays active (doesn't get hit by random dsmashes) and has good DI. solo IC edgeguarding, while not bottom of the barrel, is still mediocre at best.

People love to talk about how you still have quick dsmash and bair and what-not; but you have to realize that pretty much by the time you get to playing solo, for most IC players who love those moves already (and rightfully so; they're awesome), they do something like 6-8%; still good finishers due to knockback, but racking up damage is stupidly tedious

In summary, I don't think solo IC is good at all. I know that most people that play ICs think he's serviceable and amazing because you can get KOs with one climber in matches, but it's very rare that you can go toe=to-toe with someone for a full stock (if you're not chaingrabbing them ) and consistently come out ahead. And even this mediocre performance is greatly aided by the unfamiliarity factor; if people decided it was actually worth it to learn how to fight a single climber, he would have little to no shot at all

to me, solo IC is down there with pichu and kirby, probably below bowser and friends

 

[Lixivium]

That's why you need SoPo skills. People will be very focused on killing Nana; if you can't fight without her, then you're losing a big part of your game. You also lose the ability to use her as bait, since you'll be so afraid of her dying, sot that's another weakness.

Nobody is arguing this.

If anything, I totally agree that you need skills and knowledge to solo'ing, precisely because he's a bad character at best.

 

[Zjiin]

If anything, I totally agree that you need skills and knowledge to solo'ing, precisely because he's a bad character at best.

You might be right and I might be biased. I know how do deal with losing Nana and going solo, but just because people like myself who have had a lot of practice with this and can manage, doesn't mean Popo solo is above low tier. There are great mewtwo players out there but that doesn't mean mewtwo's not low tier. It's the general consensus that creates the standards for tiers.

 

[Lixivium]

You might be right and I might be biased. I know how do deal with losing Nana and going solo, but just because people like myself who have had a lot of practice with this and can manage, doesn't mean Popo solo is above low tier. There are great mewtwo players out there but that doesn't mean mewtwo's not low tier. It's the general consensus that creates the standards for tiers.

I'm glad you see my point, and it's NOT that soloing is hopeless, but that it IS difficult.

 

[Binx]

sure, solo climber can beat up on people you're measurably better than

solo climber still can induce mistakes very well (though his punishing power is worse than halved) due to his great ground mobility

SoPo (awesome wobbles) is very fast like you say, on the ground anyways, he can get in and out of range fairly quickly, not as well as fox obviously because of wavedash lag but still reasonable.

However, he has pretty much no reasonable options for approach, a very lousy projectile game, and a mediocre defensive game owing to poor range / bad dash dance, so if the opponent plays smart and minimizes mistakes, there is not much popo can do.

I like SoPo's dash dance I think its better than lots of them, he has no shield safe aerials and he has poor grab range, but you can still unexpectedly grab or smash or tilt or jab or dodge a counter. You can run shield wait for a spot dodge and grab, less options than Marth Fox Falco Peach but the same as Mario or Doc.

Solo climber also can't gimp at all, is extremely easy to get gimped on the other end, and has a very hard time killing anyone who stays active (doesn't get hit by random dsmashes) and has good DI. solo IC edgeguarding, while not bottom of the barrel, is still mediocre at best.

His recovery is horrible alone period but he can gimp, I dont personally spam lots of smashes so mine still do 10%-12% by the time I am alone.

People love to talk about how you still have quick dsmash and bair and what-not; but you have to realize that pretty much by the time you get to playing solo, for most IC players who love those moves already (and rightfully so; they're awesome), they do something like 6-8%; still good finishers due to knockback, but racking up damage is stupidly tedious

People often forget tilts can do lots of damage, and your grab is still good due to mobility, also you can throw out some well placed aerials to rack up damage, uthrow uair.

In summary, I don't think solo IC is good at all. I know that most people that play ICs think he's serviceable and amazing because you can get KOs with one climber in matches, but it's very rare that you can go toe=to-toe with someone for a full stock (if you're not chaingrabbing them ) and consistently come out ahead. And even this mediocre performance is greatly aided by the unfamiliarity factor; if people decided it was actually worth it to learn how to fight a single climber, he would have little to no shot at all

to me, solo IC is down there with pichu and kirby, probably below bowser and friends

I think solo ICs is definately better than Pichu and Kirby due to grabs and finishers, as far as Bowser its debatable, bowser has some good finishers and Fortress is amazing, I still think solo IC would beat a bowser but I am not sure about match ups. Ice climbers have more range than most low tier so I think it sets them apart, I mean SoPo is like a slighly faster Ness with slightly weaker attacks.