Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Wobbles]

On spacies, if I'm not going to get caught under a platform I like to use d-throw up-smash into a dashing grab. This usually pins them nearer the edge of the stage for a d-throw tech-chase while I await the return of my Nana.

Another goofy one is d-throw u-air. Use the soft hit of u-air and they go basically nowhere, except since it's trying to send them up they don't get to smash DI into the ground.

 

[choknater]

soft hit eh? i'll try it out

also i forgot about dthrow usmash i should use it more. i used to use it a lot before haha

 

[knightpraetor]

wobbling has been harder to learn than the handoff honestly:\ it's getting better but i wonder how long it will take to learn.

also the timing is really tight on a perfect wobble; i think people underrate how hard it is to pick up a wobble below 30%

and if you're getting it above 30% then you're not really ****** them any harder than marth does a spacie after 30.

 

[Tomber]

Yeah, it took some time for me to learn too. It becomes pretty easy once you get it down though. Just keep going.
Do you have trouble with the timing once you get started or do you just find it hard to set up at lower procent?

If you get a grab with both climbers in position and your opponent hasn't escaped in the time between the grab and the first pummel (which you have to do as fast as possible) then there should be nothing he can do to escape. Being good at wobbling is more about being able to set it up and start it as fast as possible then anything else. I've found several ways to set it up really fast and I get a 0 to death from time to time. If your opponent knows that is he is going to be grabed or reacts fast, then it is just not possible to get it to work at really low (don't know the exact numbers, but it should work around 20%) but from my experience only few people manage to do that. Some start to do better a few games later, however.


Btw, I just figured out that side-b OoS works as a desync. Never knew about that. Don't know how useful it will be, but side-b OoS -> blizzard seems pretty good. Better then up-b -> blizzard OoS. I'll try it out in my next match, as well as some pivot-smash desyncs I've been working on. I think they have a lot of potential.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wobbling was mad easy to learn. I've never had trouble with any CG in Brawl or Melee, maybe its a musician thing?

Why would squall be better than belay oos?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Side-B OoS is worse than belay OoS in most ways that matter. It's an okay counter to Falco's lasers. I'm not a fan of it for anything else.

 

[choknater]

i have all the tricks i need lately

but man i've been losing due to bad fundamentals and hasty decisions. i will try really hard to not lose to tafokints ever again

 

[Tomber]

Wobbling was mad easy to learn. I've never had trouble with any CG in Brawl or Melee, maybe its a musician thing?

Why would squall be better than belay oos?

I'm a musician and I think that helps when I play ICs /wobble. I know a few players who can't wobble because they can't hold a beat which means they have to just mash A fast which really isn't as good.

And as said, I don't know if side-B OoS is any good. The reason why I would say it is better then up-B OoS is that you get a move out quicker, and if you are traped at the ledge you can get closer to the center. But then again I guess it takes much longer before you can go for another moves. I'll try find a way to use it, and if I can't is no big deal.

Maybe it isn't better then up-B OoS. For me up-B OoS to blizzard It is just one of those moves which shouldn't work because it's really slow and is punishable, but works anyway. It just seems so gimmicky.

Anyway, I'm going to play with King Funk today. I'll send a link to the stream if you want to watch.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Things I dislike about side-B OoS:

Side-B lasts a long time, so following up Nana's blizzard with anything on Popo's end is usually impractical. Granted, belay OoS also has this problem, but to a lesser extent.

It's also just generally unsafe and has low rewards. It can work on people who aren't familiar with it, although even then, I prefer other things.

To elaborate on why I do actually like it against lasers sometimes:

Side-B OoS pops Popo forward a bit, so that if Falco shoots a laser at you, it'll probably only hit Popo and not Nana, so that Nana can blizzard freely. The laser also cancels the side-B animation, eliminating that issue. Side-B OoS -> blizzard here still has the downside that if you don't guess correctly or react to when Falco shoots a laser, you'll just be stuck in a squall animation with Popo and a blizzard animation with Nana.

It's worth noting that I'm not super-enthusiastic about belay OoS, either. It has its place in that it lets you quickly get out a stationary desynched blizzard while shielding, but ICs still generally have better OoS options for most situations.

 

[Binx]

welcome back wobbles, how is life? good to have discussion going on here again =D

 

[King Funk]

http://www.justin.tv/kingfunk

Streaming matches with Tomber, danish Ice Climbers player. =D

 

[Tomber]

Thanks for tuning in the other day, Fly. Unfortunately, I didn't seen that you were on before you left again, so I never knew which matches your comments were aimed at.

I didn't get to use any of my new desync mix ups in game (down smash pivot desync, down smash and grab at once). On the paper, I think they have a lot of potential, as they are just as fast to do as normal wavedash to down smash, but it may be too hard to implement them to my play and the pay off is really not that great.

For now I think it is better just to focus on the bread and butter stuff. I mess simple things up a little to often for my liking: Shield grab when I try to jump out of shield after stun, spot dodge when I try to wave dash OoS after stun, mess up simple desyncs and wave dashes under pressure. It is not too bad, but I feel that these small things keep me from playing clean in the long run. Then I can work on the flashy stuff later.

Btw, what do you guys do under Falco/Fox shield pressure? I think I go for uair OoS and shield grab too often (and get hit by shine as result). When should I go for either? Uair on shine->late nair/dair, and shield grab on shine->early nair/dair? Or should I just roll away in most cases if the other player knows what he is doing?

 

[knightpraetor]

what kind of upair are you talking about? a sh upair out of shield? rising or falling? just curious.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I've found nair oos to be pretty good... But i don't know how to use this character very well yet... Sooooo...

 

[Binx]

If Fox/Falco doesnt double shine and you have near perfect timing you can shield grab after the shine provided it didn't push you too far away.

Otherwise if you know they will shine after you can roll, if you suspect they wont shine just grab them or wavedash away after. After shielding a shine you can generally wavedash away as well although I feel like they just pressure you again immediately in a lot of cases and you have less room to maneuver, but if you can predict or react well you can sometimes grab them when they come in for that pressure.

 

[Tomber]

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I think my problem is that I try to grab right before the shine. I should pratice the timing a little I guess.

what kind of upair are you talking about? a sh upair out of shield? rising or falling? just curious.

Auto cancelled short hop up airs OoS. I feel that the hit box comes out fast enough to hit in between shine and nair/dair.

 

[Binx]

Auto cancelled short hop up airs OoS. I feel that the hit box comes out fast enough to hit in between shine and nair/dair.

can you link a video of this working, I've tried it quite a number of times and have never found it to be a successful strategy, it's possible my timing is just messed up or I am DIing wrong or something though.

 

[Tomber]

I think I saw Wobbles using it. I might be wrong though. I'll look it up.

 

[Binx]

I think it can be a strong choice in the neutral game for both baiting and occasional wierd approaches but I've just never gotten it to work properly in a defensive scenario. If Fox full hopped after the shine it would be great but otherwise I just don't think it would work.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Rolling is the best option most of the time.

 

[Tomber]

Ok, thanks.


http://sv.twitch.tv/kingfunk/b/330729289

Around 0:16:00 I show some of the desyncs I was talking about.

And feel free to watch my matches with Funk. We play pretty bad (especially in this video with our very first matches of the weekend) and we don't take it too seriously, but we both have our moments.

 

[Sorto]

Hey! Quick question; maybe someone can help me. So, I recently talked the tournament organizer of a venue near my house into removing the wobbling ban he had in place for his local tournaments. And clearly the legalization of wobbling could only really aid me as an IC main. Now I want to make it clear that I am a decent melee player without wobbling and not some guy who thinks wobbling is an auto win, but clearly a helpful rule change. Anyway, I was thinking I would go into super training room mode and make sure to come as close as possible to having wobbling down pat for his next tourny, or at the very least the one after that. I have only played around with wobbling in the past and never attempted to become perfect at it, as my locals tourney scene usually had it banned and in my college power rankings I could easiliy maintain a top 2 spot without using it (and mainly played for fun anyways). Also, I have read the wobbling thread, but as far as I saw these topics were not mentioned. If any of them were, then sorry in advance.

So here are my questions:
1) When it comes to practicing wobbling is there advantage/preference between training with lvl 1-9 comps or training mode?

2) From what I know it is preferable to keep about a 200 bpm pace. Is there a list of songs that players usually use and/or a website that lists songs by bpm? Also, am I accurate on the bpm pace, it has been a while since I looked it up?

3) Is there an advantage between ftilt or dtilt?

4) Do mechanic changes between melee 1.0,1.1,1.2 make wobbling easier or harder in any of the versions? Which version would be the most lenient in this case?

5) Any other useful info or advice one could give for someone trying to kinda cram-in/study wobbling?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1) Personal preference. They'll break out eventually if you mess up, so the speed doesn't matter.
2) You shouldn't need a song. But really, you could use any simple 4-4 beat.
3) Both moves hit for 4 frames, so it is just preference.
4) No changes.
5) If your current input isn't working, don't persist with it. Consciously fool around with different speeds until you get it.

 

[john!]

2) From what I know it is preferable to keep about a 200 bpm pace. Is there a list of songs that players usually use and/or a website that lists songs by bpm? Also, am I accurate on the bpm pace, it has been a while since I looked it up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s

this is the song that everyone should sing while wobbling

 

[DerfMidWest]

I listen to a lot of UK hardcore when I wobble... Most of it is like 180 bpm+
Most japanese hardcore is 200 bpm tho.
I also used to use dtilt, but now I use ftilt because I think it looks cooler.
I never really bothered to get wobbling down tho, since its banned at most locals around here. I prefer other grab combos anyway.


Oh, I realized Nair OoS sucks, btw.
Grab and roll are the best options.

What can the ICs do to get off the ledge?

 

[Kyu Puff]

waveland (followed by d-smash, f-smash, grab, roll, etc.) or roll

sometimes people will wait away from the ledge (~1 wd's length away on the top of the side platform or the ground). if they give you room you can drop off and regrab the ledge for invincibility and get a sense of how they react; if they sit right next to the ledge you shouldn't try to plank because a lot of characters can run off the stage and gimp you.

edit: all of this is for solo popo. if nana is there, you can drop of the ledge and nana rocket (cancel your up+b by grabbing the ledge, which causes nana to shoot upwards). from there, it's the same thing--if they give you room, you can stall a little bit, but if they approach you want to waveland or roll as soon as you can.

ledgehop n-air, f-air, and synched squall all have situational use, but what i listed above is the bread and butter imo

 

[Tomber]

Ledgehop blizzard works too for solo climber. And try to do the ledge dash while you have your invincibility from the edge.

So here are my questions:
1) When it comes to practicing wobbling is there advantage/preference between training with lvl 1-9 comps or training mode?

2) From what I know it is preferable to keep about a 200 bpm pace. Is there a list of songs that players usually use and/or a website that lists songs by bpm? Also, am I accurate on the bpm pace, it has been a while since I looked it up?

3) Is there an advantage between ftilt or dtilt?

4) Do mechanic changes between melee 1.0,1.1,1.2 make wobbling easier or harder in any of the versions? Which version would be the most lenient in this case?

5) Any other useful info or advice one could give for someone trying to kinda cram-in/study wobbling?

1) What Grim said. I like training mode because you can reset fast.
2) Yes, it's around 200 bpm. Flash by Queen is near 200 bpm, but 100 bpm songs like Dancing Queen work too if you tap on both the beat and the off beat.
3) Depends on the situation. I use f-tilt because I find it easier to set up and does more damage (IIRC), but in a few situations it is better to use d-tilt, e.g. when you stand very next to an edge. Nana moves a little forward before she use f-tilt and if you stand too close to an edge she will jump (fall over) and the wobbling is cancelled. On stages like Dream Land d-tilt is generally better because of the wind. It is possible to go from f-tilt to d-tilt while you're wobbling which you can use in those situations (this is what I do).
4) No idea.
5) Once you get the timing down then pratice your sets up and finishes. The best way to finish a wobble is down-smash without doing any throw. To do this you should press down on the c-stick just before Popo's pummel animation is over. You can also just do down throw -> smash.

My favourite ways to start a wobble are:

* WD -> Jab -> Jab cancel -> grab -> pummel once and slightly press forward on the control stick while Nana is in her grab animation -> wobbling right away

* Grab -> pummel once while Nana is in her grab animation -> down throw -> early dair (Nana) -> run -> grab (makes Nana L-cancel her dair if you use Z) -> wobbling right away

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

btw the best wobbling song ever @ 200 bpm is http://youtu.be/EaXWy-HQefc
and i think i know why the dog howls at the moon
http://youtu.be/BbYzxDozt_c not for wobbling but an interesting song anyways
srry bout wrong link b4, fixed now

 

[Nintendude]

I'm a musician and I think that helps when I play ICs /wobble. I know a few players who can't wobble because they can't hold a beat which means they have to just mash A fast which really isn't as good.

I think being a musician helps me a lot too when it comes to the timing. It makes you used to memorizing tempos and just feeling what's correct.

 

[voorhese]

I think I made a post about it b4, but how often to people actually hold down and back every time they do something involving jab when playing climbers? I am doing it A LOT, like every time. It's even how I wobble, I just grab -> A -> down back -> b (during popo headbutt) -> time A (the timing seems easier than normal wobbling to me, idk if it has more window frames or it is just a more comfortable timing).

 

[knightpraetor]

why down and back?

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm having a lot of trouble getting grabs.
I've been somewhat successful with pivot desync nana blizzard -> popograb, but people catch on fast and SDI out

 

[Grim Tuesday]

k so blizzard should rarely be your combo into grab against good players (unless you are right next to them and can catch 'em before they SDI)

So you don't really want to "go for grabs". You aim to hit them (and not get hit) with: ftilt, wavesmashes, bair, etc... and when you get the opportunity for a grab, go for it

 

[DerfMidWest]

How does i make oppertunity to grab?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hit dem with **** that links into grab (either directly or through a read) and/or force them into shield.

 

[DerfMidWest]

You have not answered my question, silly...
I was originally asking what good moves I can use to lead into grabs (either directly or through shield, etc)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well you never specifically said that but...

Jab, ftilt, dtilt, dash attack, uair, nair, fair, blizzard, ice block (hammer and projectile), solo squall.

 

[DerfMidWest]

What are the uses for solo squall?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Reading these IC discussions make me want to start getting serious about my brawl ICs. I love Melee ICs though. How have you guys done in recent tournaments? And is there anything holding back Melee ICs? I see them in the upper part of mid-high tier, do you guys think they are like Jigglypuff where they can place well, but haven't been used a top top level yet?

 

[DerfMidWest]

You've been out of melee for awhile, haven't you?