Social General Ice Climber Chat

[knightpraetor]

how the heck does a sopo take pika from 0-60?

dthrow chaingrab or something?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dthrow CG.

 

[knightpraetor]

dang, is there anyone else dthrow cgable? sheik, pikachu, and? that's kind of huge cause pikachu isn't exactly hard to grab compared to other characters

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pichu springs to mind immediately.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Poor pichu :/
I believe falcon?

 

[Binx]

There used to be a list but i cant find it, but basically anyone you can dthrow dsmash you can dthrow cg with sopo, sheik pikachu i want to say ganon, I think bowser, and maybe link, and maybe roy, not sure about the rest since i only really ever see Sheik and Pikachu.

You can regrab Falco Fox and Falcon if they don't DI.

 

[Kyu Puff]

heavier characters don't work well because d-throw is weight dependent. it doesn't work very well on dk or bowser (if at all) because even though they fall fast enough, it takes longer for popo to recover from d-throw lag.

off the top of my head, it works well on sheik, pikachu, pichu, ganon, falcon, ness, yoshi, and roy. it also works on falco but you have to predict his di because he doesn't stay in the air long enough for you to react. not sure about link or young link.

edit: it works on falcon and falco regardless of di. falcon works until like 90% if you do it right, it's just difficult to time/react.

 

[knightpraetor]

so how does chu make only nana sh upair out of shield?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6RKz5x_WJI

1:50

seems really useful

 

[Fly_Amanita]

That's a funky consequence of Nana acting 6 frames after Popo. If an attack hits both Popo's and Nana's shields at the same or nearly the same time, then they exit shield at the same or roughly the same time; if you input a command right before Popo's shield-stun ends, he won't be able to act on it, but Nana's shield-stun will be over 6 frames later, so she still acts on it. In this case, Chu probably hit something like Y/X -> C-stick up, where X/Y was pressed right before Popo's shield-stun ended.

The timing is pretty strict and requires a really good sense of how long shield-stun lasts, so things like this usually happen accidentally. I doubt Chu meant to only have Nana uair here, for example. It's still a neat idea and exploring it might have some merits. I used to dabble in having Nana sh blizzard OoS after an attack hits both shields, but had a lot of difficulty doing it consistently, so I never added it to my repertoire.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks for the help. the IC board has been pretty good about answering uestions (no keyu key).

i'm still debating though whether to learn Peach or IC as a secondary. From the last 40some hours I've spent studying IC videos and the 20 hrs of actual experience I have against decent players, IC seem to beat sheik pretty solidly. However, peach, falco and fox all seem to wreck ICs at high level. Of these, I think falco is worse than fox cause the laser turns you around. but then you get a true CG instead of one they easily kwueue roll out of. the worst flaw of ICs seems to be getting boxed out at the ledge and not having a good method of retaking center stage. When boxed out, top ICs seem to like desynch blizzard into roll a lot as well as FH and hoping they come in so you can fair them and then retaking ledge for invuln if you're wrong (chu does this all the time). honestly with fox i wouldn't mind just spacing bair when low on space, but falco turns you around and makes life hell.

i can't really agree with the current perceptions that peach's matchups are as bad as they say; I agree that sheik vs peach in ntsc seems to be in sheik's favor..but it's not by much, while IC bad matchups seem to be kwuite bad

So hard to decide, honestly IC makes a great secondary if you are only looking for a sheik counter as marth..but lately i've gotten tired of being reliant on powershields to get in against campy falcos and kind of want to just float over lasers. falco is definitely doable for marth...it's just a pain to execute sometimes

 

[Fly_Amanita]

ICs probably do better against Sheik than Peach does, but that's the only big advantage I see. ICs have more weird match-ups to worry about than Sheik does, so you'll need to look out for things like pocket Peaches, Ganons, Falcons, etc. (while you can do fine against any of these characters with ICs, you need experience against them. I also think ICs can hold their own against Fox and are de facto even against Falco, but that's just me). The Marth/ICs pair is pretty vulnerable to weird stages, too, whereas having a Peach in your pocket grants you an advantage there. In any case, Peach looks better to me in most ways.

 

[Binx]

Fox is so hard to beat for me, well good ones anyways, they can pressure you so hard its crazy, Falco isn't quite as bad IMO, as far as lasers turning you around if you predict a laser you can short hop blizzard at them and nana will do it while popo gets hit by the laser then popo gets a good followup, so if they are too predictable you get a good escape from the pressure there.

Falco also jumps a lot higher which gives you more room to get under him and punish with uairs that neither spacey can beat.

I feel like ICs can beat every character if you play them well enough but there are a lot of tricks you need to know, where as Fox or Falco for instance can play most match ups more or less the same.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I really dislike the falco MU...
How do I deal with aggro falco?
And what do I do against laser camping falco?
That character makes me mad.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i will play both for a while and see what I think. Peach just plays a lot more standard like marth, i can easily see where to work on things.

laser camping falco is the main problem as far as i can see. I can think of ways to work around the rest of the cast except for peach maybe. Anyway special thanks for the blizzard tip against lasers. i will try that against falco some and see where it takes me.

i swear yesterday while watching 20-30 wobbles vids i saw a lot of desynch blizzard when boxed out at the ledge into roll, and I thought the roll was done by popo..but that doesn't make sense cause he wouldn't have time to have nana do the blizzard would he? maybe ftilt desynch into blizzard? but i forgot how to do that one and don't know if that forces popo to do an action first or not. I will go check on that i guess later unless anyone has some ideas how you would desynch a blizzard with nana while rolling in with popo

 

[Binx]

popo blizzard nana roll?

Hmm, seems pretty good actually.

Against a laser camping falco just shoot an iceblock once in a while, it will rarely trade with them but it at least lets them know you can shoot back, gives them stuff to dodge and think about. If you get into the right ranges you can jump into a laser and blizzard with both climbers, the laser will hit popo out of it and nana will fly at falco with a blizzard allowing you to get some solid hits in. Its shield pressure and the ability to keep nana pinned far from popo with lasers that make the match up difficult imo, if you are synched I feel like its pretty even for ICs.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks for the tips guys..getting smoother with ICs chaingrabs at least. I was having trouble figuring out what determines whether nana shoots up above the ledge when you up b with popo into the ledge. Sometimes she just dies, but if I could do that on command with her going on stage and me having invuln that would be nice.

Another tech skill i can't seem to understand is charge smash after roll. for some reason if i roll and then charge smash with A, I can charge dsmash with nana but I can't seem to get it to work consistently with fsmash. I want to drag nana along behind me after a roll. However, I can't figure out why it always works if I use dsmash but I keep missing it when i do fsmash. do i just need to push forward and A right before nana comes out of lag? if her moves are 6 frames delayed I figured that charging her smash just requires you to queue an action in the frames before she gets out.

But i'm definitely able to do it 100% with dsmash but can't get consistent with fsmash.

Another weird effect is that if i charge fsmash with the cstick + z, then I can do fsmash as well, but then popo immediately rolls in the direction of the smash as I do it, so this doesn't seem useful.

 

[Binx]

Ya you have to delay it a little bit, the timing is like right after the end of the roll but before you can move.

 

[Wobbles]

yeah, i will play both for a while and see what I think. Peach just plays a lot more standard like marth, i can easily see where to work on things.

laser camping falco is the main problem as far as i can see. I can think of ways to work around the rest of the cast except for peach maybe. Anyway special thanks for the blizzard tip against lasers. i will try that against falco some and see where it takes me.

i swear yesterday while watching 20-30 wobbles vids i saw a lot of desynch blizzard when boxed out at the ledge into roll, and I thought the roll was done by popo..but that doesn't make sense cause he wouldn't have time to have nana do the blizzard would he? maybe ftilt desynch into blizzard? but i forgot how to do that one and don't know if that forces popo to do an action first or not. I will go check on that i guess later unless anyone has some ideas how you would desynch a blizzard with nana while rolling in with popo

I can help you out if you link me a vid where it happens.

 

[knightpraetor]

ah i figured it out. you just spotdodge, then blizzard, then roll. I was just dumb and forgot how desynchs work. I'm still learning very very basic stuff in terms of desynchs with ICs. Because my IC knowledge is so low i mostly just rely on bair spacing and smashes because I'm not used to suddenly having 1/2 the grab range of marth. I feel like the lag on the roll/spotdodge if I do it preemptively to desynch gives my opponent time to setup a good position and stuff. I have a feeling that the reason it wasn't working for me is that I just need to be aware of whether I should roll. I was so caught up in trying out the fancy new tech skill that I wasn't actually watching my opponent to see if I needed to roll

But yeah, it seems pretty bad to desynch in neutral. In general I'm getting the feeling that it's better just to use the desynchs that come up naturally rather than risk lag or loss of spacing to setup a desynch.

regardless, I will play around with it more. once you asked about it, I realized that the reason none of my desynchs were working was because I lost focus on the opponent while thinking about the desynch. I need to get it through my head that I shouldn't just desynch into move. Instead I should look at desynch as one action, and then just take actions from desynch if something becomes available. Rather than trying to force blocks or blizzard when it's no longer that good of an option.

 

[choknater]

my neutral game vs fox has improved soooo much

i hope to show my skills this sunday at rule 6

zeldafreak, brandon, and sfat are the more challenging foxes in the region so i will try my stuff vs them

 

[knightpraetor]

is it possible that you could explain some of the stuff that you think got better. I know personally that I hate giving away too many details on smashboards because i don't want foxes and falcos understanding how they got ***** and developing counterstrategies..but some things are basic enough that I don't care what people hear.. or you could always PM me. But i'm really curious whether there are any specific things that you learned. Usually when I say that I got better at neutral with marth, it means that I specifically learned some new movement or punish for a certain type of approach/retreat from the opponent.

I"m pretty lost in general vs fox and falco in neutral. At least vs sheik and falcon I have good general ideas on what to go for.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

With my experience vs. Fox and Falco; there really is too much to understand beyond the basics.

I just have constant epiphanies from watching videos or just theory-crafting about specific situations, and I apply them to my game and keep up with the Fox/Falco's gradual improvement.

 

[choknater]

is it possible that you could explain some of the stuff that you think got better. I know personally that I hate giving away too many details on smashboards because i don't want foxes and falcos understanding how they got ***** and developing counterstrategies..but some things are basic enough that I don't care what people hear.. or you could always PM me. But i'm really curious whether there are any specific things that you learned. Usually when I say that I got better at neutral with marth, it means that I specifically learned some new movement or punish for a certain type of approach/retreat from the opponent.

I"m pretty lost in general vs fox and falco in neutral. At least vs sheik and falcon I have good general ideas on what to go for.

don't worry about revealing stuff. it helps the metagame. the ic vs spacies metagame has been developing over many years, so knowing as many strategies and counter strategies as possible is key in winning the matchup, for either side. it is usually a complete shutout if either player doesn't know what they are doing. ic's are supremely tactical so both sides need very specific moves to hit each other in a worthwhile way

With my experience vs. Fox and Falco; there really is too much to understand beyond the basics.

I just have constant epiphanies from watching videos or just theory-crafting about specific situations, and I apply them to my game and keep up with the Fox/Falco's gradual improvement.

i can help you both.

i know there is a lot to understand, but there's never "too much"

FOX:
matchup overview: fox's speed advantage gives him 60:40 over ice climbers but with good defense you can make him learn to respect your space bubble if you punish him really hard off small hits. once he is scared, he will start moving around a lot which will give you space to get underneath him, or create a desynch wall that can potentially lead to your own offense via ice block chasers.

- short hop fairs and short hop bairs will teach him to respect your close range so that he just doesnt run straight toward you and drills/nairs. short hop autocancel bairs are the best, because reps are fast and you can do them while moving, but as usual they do not cover every single type of approach.
- another decent defensive maneuver in the neutral game is to full hop uair and come down with dair or fair, depending on fox's location. i know fair isn't a catch-all, but it is better than nothing if you want to protect yourself on the way down. i do this because i don't really want to stay still in the matchup... however don't let your full hop be baited if he is too close
- test the fox's l-canceling skills by throwing in a shield grabs. if he's really good at l-canceling vs ice climbers, just hold shield and find a way out. roll forward, or wd back. if he misses l-cancels just shield grab him and kill him
- wd utilt is great if a fox is a little jumpy and careless with his spacing. i just throw it in sometimes, because if the fox jumps there isn't much he can do about it. sometimes you can make foxes scared to jump this way
- if you decide to desynch learn to mix it up. nana blizzard = defense, nana ice block = offense (ice block chaser is so good. never forget about this classic 2006 tactic). while nana is doing stuff, make sure you don't get too caught up in thinking about your moves. you need to watch the opponent and make decisions depending on what they are doing. popo is free to dash dance, wd, ice block, or do aerials while nana is throwing a projectile so be mindful of all 3 characters on the screen.
- remember that aerial synced squall is very safe on landing, so sometimes you can throw it in freely if you haven't used it in a match yet. very good for peppering in a lot of damage and leads into dsmashes. good diagonal aerial movement, and if even if you hit fox's shield he can't do much as long as you fade away or better yet go behind him
- if a fox is way too aggressive sometimes i can get a hard read on his short hop and just fsmash him.
- light shield will get you out of tight spots

popo vs fox
- be careful as hell. play evasion until you get something guaranteed. go for DD grabs
- if you are cornered, rolling forward is good if you know he is ABSOLUTELY going to commit to an approach

FALCO:
matchup overview: this matchup is even, and very heavily focused on whoever wins the horizontal projectile game. ic's are frustrating for falco to fight against because we are the only character that can cleanly go THROUGH a laser on the ground, and it is hard to l-cancel and shield pressure us. it is top priority to space better than falco on the ground, and get a hit confirm before he does. for either character, 1 hit = death, or at least EXTREME momentum/positional advantage.

- know your tricksies that will get through lasers. when a falco doesn't know what they are doing with lasers, i usualy 3-stock them so easily because they fall for everything. examples:

• dash attack through laser
• short hop blizzard through laser
• wd fsmash through laser

all of these can potentially get you great punishes, and potentially a kill
- know when you can shield grab and when you can't. if falco does a late fast falling l-cancel, it means he knows what he's doing and you can't shield grab him. this means you should really try to space yourself so that you are not forced into your shield. if you are not shielding, you are able to initiate offense vs falco
- if falco chooses to just keep lasering and running away from you, be vigilant and don't chase him too far to the corners. stay center stage and just throw ice blocks, short hopped and full hopped, or even grounded. ice block vs laser game is almost equal, meaning if you both spam at top speed you will be hitting each other for almost equal damage. racking up small damage is really negligible on both sides because both characters need combos in order to kill each other. when falco finally decides to full hop, that is our opening to get underneath. watch and see if he decides to close in with lasers, and respond accordingly (stop ice blocking and do something else)
-if the falco knows that crazy stupid grab trick (dthrow, shine grab, dthrow, repeat) don't do anything stupid to challenge him close range. thankfully most falcos dont know about this. in general you shouldn't be getting grabbed by falco. stay away from laser grab, or laser dash grab, as this is the main way he will get them. falco's dthrow is stupidly safe so don't go in too hard trying to save nana if he throws her. instead get in a space where you can pressure him depending on what he decides to do after the throw (like hitting nana)
- horizontal spacing is so important in this matchup, so don't stay in one spot. try to get in those certain ranges where he cannot laser safely, but he also cannot easily close in with a short hop aerial. this is about the range of ice climbers wd, and maybe a tad longer than their dash attack. dash attacks are heavy commitments but they are seriously godlike if they connect.
- try to stay off platforms. if you reallllly need to use them for movement, like escaping a corner, then do so. when i'm cornered and i decide to use a platform, instead of just platform wding and falling down to mid stage, i like to wd on the platform, jump to the top platform, wd on it, and see where my opponent goes. if he chases me up, it is safe and easy to go back down. if he tries to get underneath the platform, i carefully pick which way i want to go back down, depending on where he is moving. coming down with a dair is one option, waiting for his jump is another, or perhaps go left or right, whichever is opposite of where he goes. you just want to get back down safely.
- watch out for stupid shield stun tricks like falco's laser -> turn around utilt, or falco's fsmash in general. these have extreme shield stun/push back on our shields. we can't really punish these cleanly, so if i am pushed too far i usually just hold my shield and try to wd back, or do a short hop ice block so to prevent him from just going in again.

popo vs falco
- same as fox, except it's so much harder to grab falco. falco's advantage vs popo is heavier than fox's, however falco has a harder time vs 2 ice climbers.
- throw in power shields if you can. makes things much easier and it scares him. learn to power shield while moving, like during a WD or a dash dance. ice climbers are fat and do not have a low crouch, so powershielding is difficult with this character, but still quite possible.
- catching falco for a strong punish is realllly hard. you basically want to evade and wait until he messes up and makes a bad decision. light shield so that his shield pressure doesn't become too strong, and try not to get cornered. in this situation i might use some defensive full hop fairs, or my own blizzards

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh I don't have any trouble.

I phrased that poorly. I meant that there is too much to explain, because the MUs are very much based on situational option selections rather than general "when x, always do y" stuff.

You did a pretty good job, though.

 

[choknater]

oh haha. alrighty then! and ty

 

[knightpraetor]

when would you use Full hop upair into dair/fair? I don't really feel like fox/falco are above me most of the time and if they are, i'm probably already winning

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Times I follow up uair with dair:

-When I don't think any of my other aerials will come out quickly enough to combo after the uair.
-When I want to keep the opponent close to me as I land to continue the pressure.
-When I can edge-cancel the dair and combo that into something.

I rarely combo uair into fair since it's just not something I have an opportunity to do a lot, and also since it generally requires double jumping after the uair, and putting the opponent below you after going so high is a gamble. I still go for it every now and then if I think I can get away with it, though.

If you're talking about this more generally and not only when the uair hits:

Dair provides okay coverage below you and comes out really quickly, so if the opponent gets under you when you uair and you think they'll attack immediately, dair is good. Otherwise, fair is generally better for attacking people below you.

A lot of the time when I do a uair by one of the inner sides of the outer platforms on a stage like Dreamland, in which case I'm guessing they'll either run forward and drop the center or jump to the top platform, but they don't, I'll protect my descent with a retreating fair. It's not actually a totally safe descent, but a vast majority of space animals will not punish you for it.

If you're curious about when you should full jump uair in general against spacies:

Be picky about when you leave the ground. I usually do it when I'm either confident in my reads or don't think I'll get punished for it. A lot of the time when it's tempting to leap out there, it's fine to just sh autocancel uair or utilt instead.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks for the tips. I also learned a few uses for desynchs today and realized that you have to delay the upsmash after dthrow to hit sheik but can do them at the same time against spacies today.

i have many questions though.

is dtilt or angled ftilt better for guarding sweetspot.

when do you use nair on from the ledge with invuln? i feel like dair just looks better.. if nair would hit wouldn't bair hit as well?

but i assume you use them for low firefoxes. dair for super low and nair/bair for high ones? is that the idea?

edit: nvm about the wobbling realized my problem was in the guide after all:

Make sure she does the tilt before the headbutt ends.

i think i am just getting the tilt out to slow from fear of dsmashing/fthrowing

 

[choknater]

angled ftilt is reliable. dtilt leads to fsmash which is way more damage and knockback, but be weary that some people with a GREAT DEAL of exp vs ic's will DI the dtilt away

nair from the ledge is fine. i like dair because it commonly leads to more damage vs fox and falco, and falcon. ummm as for the height of firefox... umm i am not always edge hogging, but i will usually go for dair because the hitbox has a better chance of hitting firefox. for nair you need to be invincible, and bair is hard to aim for me. nair also gives a chance of ledge tech

 

[knightpraetor]

oh will dair win without invuln? it looks like it has such crappy range that i just assumed I needed invuln for it

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Dair has a weird hitbox. It'll beat a lot of things below you, but doesn't protect your lower foot well.

Ledgehop nair and dair have kind of different applications for edgeguarding. Nair shoves the opponent away from the level and dair leaves them in place. You can also afford to drop lower from the edge before double jump with dair than nair since dair comes out quickly, which incidentally is convenient since that's the sort of position in which you'd generally want to hold the opponent in place (mostly against spacies, although this should also work well on other characters with long up-B start-ups).

More generally speaking, nair tends to have a higher reward, but is harder to land. This is all really general talk and what you should do depends on lots of little details.

 

[Engo]

Choknater thanks alot for that matchup info. I'm just starting to learn IC's and that helps a lot.

What do you guys think about IC's as a secondary to fox? Is it worth it?

 

[choknater]

being good with ic's takes a lot of time and commitment, so good luck if u choose that

my ic's was playing tired/rusty today, but my young link was playing amazing

darrell 3 stocked my ic's but i won the set with ylink


hahahahah

project $tylez man. i seriously would've placed like 2 spots lower if it weren't for that character

 

[Nintendude]

For some reason, vs. Peach, I'm really bad about keeping Nana alive during Peach's respawn invincibility. Anyone have any good tricks for getting around her? Sometimes I can do something goofy with synced forward-B to get around her, but it seems like a lot of times I resort to rolling which gets her killed.

I noticed this while playing DoH (he lives 15 minutes from me now).

 

[knightpraetor]

is darrell a peach player? that's the only way that that makes any sense

 

[Nintendude]

Darrell plays Samus.

 

[Tomber]

For some reason, vs. Peach, I'm really bad about keeping Nana alive during Peach's respawn invincibility. Anyone have any good tricks for getting around her? Sometimes I can do something goofy with synced forward-B to get around her, but it seems like a lot of times I resort to rolling which gets her killed.

I noticed this while playing DoH (he lives 15 minutes from me now).

On bigger stages (Battlefield, Dream Land) I usually camp the platforms untill the invincivility is gone. Peach's mid-air jump is pretty slow, so she can't do a lot about it. On smalle stages (Yoshi's, FoD) I kind of do the same but mix it up with light shielding on the ground. On FD and Station there is no top platform which makes not getting hit a bit harder. The ground area is bigger however, so you can stay in your shield longer before you're pushed all the way to the edge where you don't want to be as you can't do much here. You can try to roll if you are sure the Peach is going to commit to something, but rolling behind Peach is generally very risky. You can mix it up by doing something like forward-B'ing through her or throw a blizzard at her, but both of those are risky too.

You're faster then her, so use your speed to stay away from her. If you get read, Nana will most likely die.


Btw, found something interesting: When holding Fox/Falco after a grab, pressing the C-stick down (Popo d-throws and Nana down-smashes at the same time) will make Nana's down-smash hit Fox/Falco in a way that sends them behind IC (like the Forward smash/up-throw thing). It is really fast and by using this I think you could catch some players off guard with some bad DI so it could be a great mix up. However, it only works then IC is looking to the left, which doesn't really make any sense to me, hah. If anyone tests it and knows why this is the case, then please tell me.

Also, when holding Falcon, maybe after a reverse Dair-CG, you can C-stick behind IC for a full damage back-throw to forward-smash combo/ finisher. This does more damage then the reverse Forward smash/up-throw where the smash hits before the end of the throw -> less damage. In general, back-throw to charged forward-smash is a lot better then up-throw to forward-smash, as it hits harder and does a lot more damage. The timing is harder, however.

 

[knightpraetor]

is IC vs samus bad or something?

 

[Tomber]

It is one if the toughest match ups, yes. She is hard to combo, can CC a lot of IC's moves, and kills Nana easily with her missiles, which Nana often just runs into, and her down smash, which turns Nana around (can't grab edge) and sometimes sends the climbers in two different directions. IC can Ice Block/Blizzard camp her pretty well, however, which makes the match up more even. It is still tough though IMO, especially without wobbling.

 

[Sorto]

I always wondered this and I thought, hey why not bring it to the IC boards. The MBR ruleset never recommends Wobbling being banned. However a good amount of tournaments ban it. Often they copy-paste rulesets and keep that ban in. I always wondered why these rules don't coincide. I have nothing against it being banned if it is considered "overpowered". But then my thinking is, why is it not "officially" or recommended to be banned. I also, have nothing against it being legal, for the obvious reason that I am an IC player, and like any IC player I have played around with it and even practiced the timing. Are tournaments that ban it, just banning it, so players don't whine about losing to it (aka scrubs in sirlin terms)? Or is it that the MBR did not want to make an official stance on the subject? Or something else entirely? I have always been curious as to why there is a clear difference on that ruling between MBR ruleset and a good percentage of tournament rulesets.