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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
When you wd back f-tilt desynch, try to wavedash facing away. This way you can do the f-tilt turn around thing during the wd back.

Also against Marth, if he's spamming then shoot stuff at him and shield a lot. If he f-smashes your shield and he didn't tipper you then it's a free grab or smash. If he tippers you then it's just a reset most of the time. Use blizzard to make sure you don't get cornered at the edge.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
thanks for the advice nintendude im glad i was practicing the ftilt desync right, it is really easy and i catch everyone with it.
wobbling is getting a little easier, just have to get over my horrible rhythm
i have also been theorycrafting more which is a good thing
pivot popo dashattk nana fsmash, charge or not
bthrow reverse fsmash is really easy on falcon;)+his bad recovery
also lightshield pushes us far away from marth after fsmash
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
To address the concerns you point out:

I'm having trouble vs Sheik, when she hits my shield I don't know when its safe to go for grabs or which defensive options I should take.
If the Sheik is good and if you're not good at judging if you have a decent shot at landing a grab after she hits your shield with an aerial, it doesn't hurt to just assume you can't get one. ICs have better ways of landing grabs on Sheik anyways. As for defensive options, if Sheik is pressuring your shield with lots of aerials, roll back -> blizzard or WD OoS back -> DD blizzard are both good. Blizzard in general is good for creating breathing room against Sheik if you feel pressured. If you're confident she's going to jump or if you feel like playing riskily, you can wavedash at her with utilt or usmash. If she's pressuring you with ground moves, shield less, wavedash forward less, and crouch a lot. Most of Sheik's ground game is unsafe against CC and will lead to her getting grabbed, unless you're at a high percentage.

Also I have a really tough time edgeguarding here at certain spacings because of I try to roll up I still get hit by her up b as she goes for the stage, should I just not grab the ledge vs her unless I knock her very far out?
There are lots of little nuances depending on where Sheik starts the up-B. Something that might help you is to just stand up from the edge instead of rolling from the edge. Timing the stand up animation right should often prevent her from grabbing the edge if she goes for that and still give you enough time to react to any other options she goes for. It's more complicated if she's close enough to throw out an aerial to protect herself or is able to grab the edge with up-B before the poof; her aerials lose to your fsmash since it's more disjointed than her fair/bair. In this sort of situation, it's not really bad to just let her grab the edge and try to prevent her return since it's not terribly easy for Sheik to get back onstage against ICs. Things are also a bit more complicated if there's a floating platform she can reach instead of just the main stage. I usually just bair her off again for the sake of keeping her by the side and racking up more damage, but you can also sometimes waveland on the platform and dsmash or even waveland on and grab if Nana is in a position to help, but that's not usually the case.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
nice...i actually haven't tried roll back blizzard against sheik's ground pressure, and was having trouble with the same thing.

also, in general not shielding as much and CCing more seems better in general in this matchup..

i spent a lot of time testing and was forced to eat my own words for the first time on the boards because of this..(such a noob thing not to know..but somehow, i, like the poster asking, didn't know even after several years of playing...[lack of sheik practice])...but yeah, basically always stand on unless they are going for on stage tipped spacing at the ledge..you can time it so they can't grab the ledge regardless...sometimes with marth at least it can be better to roll on and take the tip but i usually only do this if the sheik takes a position where she can horizontally go on to the lip of the stage from a good ways out horizontally.

if she is close enough to hit you with up b you should just time your stand up during the explosion to get invuln...she also cannot grab the ledge done correctly..the timing is tight the first time you do it..but after 5-6 matches of practice it will feel like clockwork..stand on sh dair with marth for the spike..so automatic...i would guess with IC it's stand on, watch them either die or go straight up and then dsmash as they come down...also automatic

edit: did no one notice how many freaking errors I made while typing? I wrote DI instead of die lol
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
If Sheik is close enough to grab the ledge before the poof, or even if she can make it back with her double jump, I usually try to waveland fastfall onto the ledge at the last possible second. If she up+Bs you can stand up before you get hit; if she double jump f-air/u-airs, you can ledgehop n-air with invincibility and send her back off the stage without a double jump.

Sveet: Yeah. If you turn around f-tilt, Nana will jab, so you can crouch and make her do whatever you want (usually blizzard, or jumping blizzard/nanapult) while Popo is still recovering from the f-tilt lag.


When Fox is recovering low, does he have any way to get around ledgehop d-air? I feel like on some stages (Battlefield particularly) you can just ledgehop d-air him until he's at killing percentage. It could just be that the Fox I tried it against wasn't mixing up his recovery enough (maybe hugging the stage or SDI up would make it harder) but it would be really funny if this worked.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
Thanks fly, if I stand up off the ledge and the up b would have hit if I rolled do I have to shield it or does it just not usually hit in the same way if you stand up?
 

kd-

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
1,235
Location
Body City, BO
SDI up into phantasm could work. Depending on where the Fox is, angling FireFox straight up or various degrees of slightly towards the stage and up would dodge around it. Ledgehop dair seems unnecessarily risky but hilarious nonetheless
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
i have been using ledgehop dair for a while now against spacies. btw dair has soo much lag after be careful where u go after, dont try to ledgecancel on the same ledge like a boss ice climbers are soo easily gimped
if you wd back onto the stage with popo you can cover phantasm/illusion with ledgehop nair
fire fox is different if he ends the animation to catch the ledge from above(meaning behind popo)wobbles old lh bair works wonders, lh dair on the other hand can knock them out out the end of the firefox animation
if they recovering low. i am still working out what to do if they di onstage been messing with lh fair on to the stage after abusing ledge invincibility like falcon with his knee. if they tech it you get a tech chase, chances are they will tech roll to the middle. if they dont tech it chase with them uairs/ uair nair lol wobbles
timing is tight acknowledged but i mean to use this as a mixup from wavedash onto the stage-> dsmash/fsmash/ftilt/grab/blizz ect.
 

kd-

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
1,235
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Body City, BO
invincible ledgehop fair sounds kinda cool, but super risky in that if you time it wrong - or even some situations I could see it just not working at all - the Fox will land and then shine before you can hit with the fair, leaving you off the stage without a second jump.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
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San Francisco
When Fox is recovering low, does he have any way to get around ledgehop d-air? I feel like on some stages (Battlefield particularly) you can just ledgehop d-air him until he's at killing percentage. It could just be that the Fox I tried it against wasn't mixing up his recovery enough (maybe hugging the stage or SDI up would make it harder) but it would be really funny if this worked.
Fox can switch up his up-B angle to change the timing of the dair so it's hard to keep it up for a long time.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It seems a little harder for him to get around if you drop down low before starting the d-air. Maybe it would work on Battlefield?
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
It's small so he doesn't have a lot of room to move around. On big stages it's easier for him to run away and avoid getting grabbed. The low platforms interrupt his sh aerials, so his movement is somewhat restricted (most Falcon players will adapt their playstyle to circumvent that, though). You can poke through the platforms with u-tilt, sh u-air, f-smash, and just about anything else, which makes being above the platforms more dangerous for him than it is on other stages.

The downside is that his stomp pokes through the platforms, so if you throw out a move underneath one of the side platforms and miss, he can punish it pretty easily. Personally, I have more luck on FD and even Yoshi's.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
You absolutely do not want to be below Falcon when he's over one of the side platforms on FoD, unless you're really sure you can hit him. Challenging his dair from below isn't really feasible if Falcon spaces and times it correctly. It's better to stick near the center, and if he's really persistent in sticking to platforms, find ways of approaching from the side or quickly get below him and try to hit him before he can get a dair out, which is easier said than done.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Match 4 of you and Johnny at SNM was so heart-breaking.

I've never seen you stick to someone like you did during the set though. You were on him. Very impressive =)
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
IIRC, I actually lost track of how many stocks I was at and let that screw with my decision-making. Go me.

I think overall I played a little better in GFs, although it still wasn't enough. I feel like I'm making progress, though, and I feel more capable of beating s2j than I have in a long time. We'll see how everything goes.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I notice you're forgoing a lot of grab setups in favour of continuing to beat his face with hammers. Is this a response to how good he is at SDIing traditional CGs?

Your pressure seems a lot better when you're actually on offense lately. Been expanding your repertoire?

I find that dash grabs are better than standing grabs when I want to catch people in the freefall because of how the dash grab hitboxes work out. But you already knew that lol.

At any rate, I'm really looking forward to LFs and GFs when they're uploaded. You looked good =)
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
kirkykaze could you expand on what you mean by "how the dash grab hitboxes work out?"

I'm curious cause I"m wondering if there are places I should be using dash grabs instead of JC grabs or something. I don't even know if you're talking about in general or just about IC grabs too
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
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I'd assume so, cuz it's just a dash grab with extra momentum from the dash attack animation.

Just wanted to let all interested folks know, I'm currently messing about with jab-SHFFL d-air-stuff. It's pretty funny as a damage builder and a way to juggle semi-floaties (Marth in particular) across the stage if you want to push them to the edge.

Honestly I think I've underrated sh-d-air as an option for a long while, it's a cute fast option and since the ICs have a quick SHFFL it can be pretty good.

That is to say, assuming your opponent doesn't CC, because I can't think of a single character that can't CC d-air into something painful. But in the event you think they won't you can use this to push them about or interrupt a double jump or something.

I dunno, in all truth it probably doesn't lead very far against experienced opponents. But the dash splits you and Nana horizontally which causes a good difference in the d-air hitboxes connecting, which leads to good frame trapping and potential followup. Regardless of tournament use it's fun to mess around with, so I recommend it :D
Bringing this up again because it's hilarious and works surprisingly well.

Jab -> d-air (synched) combos Marth at around 40%. Before that it's a frame trap which has a pretty good chance of stealing his double jump. I don't think d-air legitimately leads into anything (it has set knockback, and always stuns Marth for 20 frames); when Nana is perfectly synched, early d-air -> jab gives the opponent ~7 frames to escape, so Marth could probably up+B/jump/f-air if he caught on.

Wobbles mentioned that sometimes when you d-air, Nana lags behind you and hits later than she should (which would keep them in stun for longer). Also, if they were trying to jump out, they might be caught off guard and not react in time. The few times I've tried jab -> d-air -> jab, it worked like a charm, although it's probably a mix-up at best, maybe a gimmick.

Also, it seems like perfectly desynched d-airs would keep the opponent continuously in stun (sh d-air is 36 frames from start to finish, and the combined hitstun of two sh d-airs on Marth is 40 frames) but I haven't been able to do it on a computer yet. D-throw triple d-air grab could be a cool grab mix-up (this is purely in my head; obviously there would be a lot of complications if they DI certain ways or hit the ground).

Edit: I might be overestimating hitstun on their synched moves (regarding the first part). This would be easier if I had AR...
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
kirbykaze..thanks for opening my eyes about the grabs..i study the marth hitboxes all the time, but i just glossed over the dash grab...so many new options opening up...reducing 50-50s to 100% and better techchase coverage as well. just have to learn to grab with the back part of the grab as well.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
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Massachusetts
That was really cool. Maybe after the first synched f-air you could l-cancel desynch into another f-smash/f-air chain or something (not sure if it would lead to more damage though).

me vs. young link

Here is the set I was talking about from a few weeks ago. In general I didn't have much of a strategy, and didn't really understand his angles of attack or how to punish his moves. If you have any advice, or figure anything out from watching this, please let me know. I might have to play him again this weekend. :/

Also, if you watch, you probably want to skip game two. Brinstar wasn't supposed to be legal, and for some reason I thought I would be able to learn the match-up with Sheik on the spot. I think whenever I try to transition between characters in tournament, it just messes with my tech skill and ends up working against me...


Edit: Here's another set against one of the best players in my region. Kinda disappointed about how I played in this one. I felt really pressured so I tried to be aggressive and pressure him back, but instead I just kind of threw out hitboxes and whiffed a lot of dash attacks. Since then I think I've gotten a little better; the last time we played I almost won.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
i felt for you in that match against th0rn
i have alot of falcos that play similar to that in my region. i had to come to my own realizations about being counter aggressive against falcos. imo that punishing falco by being patient with your spacing can sometimes lead to early gimps and is a far better strat than being aggressive with smashes, fairs, and dash attacks.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
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San Francisco
Kyu, throw more ice blocks at Falco. It's good for breaking his rhythm and making him feel less comfortable. It's important to make Falco feel pressured in any way you can because that's when they mistakes, and if you can't force mistakes from Falco it's really hard to beat him.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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Dec 25, 2002
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Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
wow project $tylez is a million times better than every ylink video i've ever seen except armada haha
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
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Massachusetts
Ghllie: Thanks for the heads up, fixed the link. Usually against aggressive opponents I play a little more aggressively at first because a stray smash/grab can scare them into pressuring me less. I guess the problem was that th0rn never let up; he just adjusted his spacing and baited out my attacks without giving me any more breathing room. I definitely agree that I should've been more patient in that set, I just felt like if I didn't throw out a hitbox I wouldn't get the chance to.

Nintendude: Now you and Fly have given me the same tip--I guess that means it's pretty important. I feel like I always stop using ice block when there are no immediate returns; I'll try to keep in mind that it's doing something even when it's not dealing any damage.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
i am going to a tourney tommorow morning, ill probably upload some videos for u guys to help me;)
nana ub b backwards?
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
can you explain how you make nana up b backwards instead of going straight up and on stage? that was weird but very useful looking
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Massachusetts
If Nana hits the stage during up+B, she turns around. So (assuming you're talking about the up+B cancel) if you hug the stage before using up+B she'll bounce off and turn around, and if you leave a little distance between you and the stage (but close enough that Popo will still grab the ledge) she'll go straight onto the stage.

I don't think it's particularly useful because she's invincible most of the time anyways, but if you're using up+B to recover and you're right next to the stage, sometimes it's good to up+B backwards--if you up+B normally and Nana hits the stage, she turns around and can't grab the ledge (this situation doesn't come up very often but it's happened to me a few times).
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
So, gonna take a break for a while. Have been feeling that I´ve played like a glass cannon for a long time, where me winning made the opponents think they should give up the matchup since "it makes no sence", and where I´m loosing I´ve got no more clue that I miss some part of consistancy to get good reads on the fly.
Only way to play at the level I want to have as my standard is when I play for like 30-35 hours(slower in teams) on a weekend which is when I start to get warmed up, that combined with how I win makes it hard to get some good real practice even at tournaments to get to the consistancy on those very small details and get the whole thing going. Coming back with a fresh look at the matchups is probably what I need so I need this break.



Watched Fly vs S2J and I think you might be onto some good things in that matchup, got a few good reads where the punishes were nice, looks like you can win the next set or the one after that^^


A couple of tips that can be used for experimenting, I´ve allready mentioned some of them but as long as it isnt used it can be useful to know it.

WD turnaround upsmash should be easier to hit with then regular upsmash for the same reason as wobbles dsmashtrick against samus.

Charge dsmash at the rolldistance(different distance for different matchups) from the ledge when edgeguarding. It´s forcing the opponent to jump onto stage or stay at the ledge since rolling might get them punished very hard from Nana. If they have time to set up a block, dsmash the shield and just grab them in the hitstun.
 
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