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Social General Ice Climber Chat

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
does anyone have any tips vs ganondork, i have read the matchup but more info would be very helpful.
both specific situations and general play.
inb4 Dont Get Hit
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
Yeah lol, it's really funny. I don't really care much personally. The tournament was too small and I was trying to not let my teammates down in both Melee and Brawl, which was being run at exactly the same time. I was holding up literally every bracket despite constantly playing my matches.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I watched the Vudu set. I like that you got a lot more patient as the games went on. Like, in the first round, you'd set up a desynch and quickly approach with something like a full jump Nanapult, which is not safe against Luigi (short hop Nanapult is way better). You still would occasionally take pointless risks or let Luigi squeeze in through your walls in weird ways, but I'm guessing this is due to MU inexperience more than anything else (or at least experience in camping Luigi). Probably the biggest way Luigi tends to get around walls is by approaching from above when he's at a low percentage. He can eat a rising Popo uair and then nair you at really low percentages, so you need to watch out for that then. When he's at 30%-ish or something like that, you should still watch out for nair, although I think around this time you should be able to avoid it pretty consistently by either fastfalling (if the uair hits near the peak of the jump) quickly or by drifting to the side.

Minor nitpick #2: You don't deal with Luigi well when he's above you. Like, when he approaches you from a platform, you often retreat to the side or try to intercept him with usmash. Usmash is risky because of its long-ish start-up, and it doesn't tend to lead to much. Retreating isn't bad per se, but you can do considerably better things. The big option I never saw you use is utilt. It really cleanly beats most things Luigi can do from above; it'll lose to well-spaced dairs, but it's not very hard to judge whether he's in a position to do those. There were a lot of times when you were standing next to a platform when Vudu tried to quickly approach you from above, and you could have cleanly beaten that by just standing in place and throwing out utilt at the right time.

Back to blizzard-camping (My post-formatting has gotten lazy and weird in my current post-academic-year condition): It feels dumb, but when you have a lead, it's often best to just sit there and keep shooting ice blocks and blizzards. Even later in the set, you'd sometimes make a weird gamble when you could just sit there and keep up the wall. It can be boring or stressful to just sit there and not mix it up at all, and I think the simplicity of the inputs you're entering adds to this, but recognizing that Luigi needs to make big gambles to get around this sort of wall most of the time (at least when you have the lead) is important if you want to play the match-up in this sort of slow way, which is also how I like to play it.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I play Eddy once every several months and I base most of what I know about the match-up on my experience against him, although he plays kind of differently than some of the other big name Luigi players. SoCal also has ROFL, an old-school Luigi who is still pretty damn good and occasionally goes to tourneys, but I probably only play him something like once a year.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
hey nintendude,
i saw u using ice block edgeguard against winston and getting punished a little for it. i believe that is a high-risk, low-reward option.
Can you please explain to me why that was your choice on occasion
also, respect to ur ic's they are very refreshing
 

HoChiMinhTrail

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
4,731
Location
Michigan State/Chicago, Il
Been watching your set vs luigi for some good pointer in that matchup. Whenever it comes up I always have problems(although I often just pwn him with ganon.)

Winston looked free as **** tho, I wanna see you vs some good fox players, your ic's are legit.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
can someone explain to me how he desynchs at nine seconds into a blizzard and then another desynch shortly afterward at 15 sec? i think i don't understand how to set these up or i would use desynchs more and blizzard in general.

Help appreciated for my scrub ice climbers that I would like to be on par with my marth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDXQJFKX5Fo

edit: nvm i'm dumb the 9 second was just a roll..was the other one a dashdance desynch?
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
Correct. Roll desynch followed by dash dance desynch. I also use the f-tilt desynch a lot now. wd back f-tilt desynch is faster and safer than roll desynch.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
k thanks..i'm on a crappy computer in korea..i wish i were in america, then loading youtube wouldn't take ten years and i could just turn on the slow motion to check what's going on...the two most useful things i saw you do that I need to add to my game were both desynchs...

the one at 14 sec is a dashdance desynch...and vs fox at the very end you did something very clever to cover options at the ledge that i couldn't understand at first but i concluded it was a jab desynch at first..but now i'm guessing you turned around and ftilt desynched since you mentioned it..being able to desynch when covering their recovery options to get on stage from the ledge seems pretty useful..especialy if you are covering with ftilt and then covering with blizzard afterward...not enough against fox's invuln waveland..but still pretty good as options go
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
if u walk towards the middle a bit with ur main climber after u imput blizzard u can catch fox with a dmash out of his invul waveland or invul waveland shine. if they ledgedrop jump sideb u can fsmash
http://youtu.be/B1ESC-PyqW0 0:59 for fsmash punish on fox's side-b
also dont look at part 4.... i r discraced:(
and part 1 has epic commentary;)
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
lol i know i was a month out of practice and not very confident in general.
jahns\
im working on getting better tho, will post videos
also can someone link me to the ic's hitboxes i lost them;)
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
alright guys maybe you can help me out

idk if i posted this already, but i was embarrassed about it before so idk if i really asked for help. i already noticed a few things i could improve, but after a few weeks now my perspective is fresh and maybe you all can help me notice some things too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM67npJ3L7g

me vs silentspectre, pls critique
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
i clearly made big mistakes and could've won lol. it was just an interesting situation. he hadn't been to a tourny in 7 months, and it got to my head and i couldn't take him seriously. especially when he laughs a lot during tournament sets lol

now that time has passed i am able to look at just the gameplay and not what was going through my head
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I'm not an ICs main so take this with a grain of salt. But there are some immediate things I noticed.

On FD he kept ****** your blizzard defense and it was basically "free knees" and you continued to do it. I'm not sure how the blizzard defense is supposed to work vs Falcon but it seems risky, especially on FD where you have no platform above you to limit his high jump shenanigans. It worked better on Battlefield. I think if the defense is supposed to be good on FD, you probably need to do different with actions with Popo while Nana is preoccupied. Maybe situate yourself inside the blizzard a bit more and then uair around or fair or something... I dunno. I saw you retreat behind Nana and ice block a few times and that seemed really easy for him to get around.

Your timings on certain kinds of stuff is pretty weak. A lot of flubbed tech chases on platforms and on the ground. The only real remedies to those are to get better at doing them reactively (which means playing & practicing) or doing stuff that covers more options earlier so you can action out faster.

I'm not sure how ICs stuff someone SHing in front of them in their face, but I think you could try high angled f-tilt. Maybe even nair. I dunno. It feels like when he's in that position you kind of fall apart. Since you play kind of defensively, you're often pressed up at the edge too (which means retreat WD isn't really an option).

You set up your desynchs and stuff when he's invulnerable a lot. And then lose your Nana for it.

Feels like you try to chase him down with d-smash a lot and he counters this in a variety of ways. Should probably consider other moves for knocking him away, chasing, etc. Or to just not focus on chasing down Falcon so much, since that's really hard vs him. Feels like when you're trying to force a hit, you usually get hit instead.

I think on FD if he recovers you can probably just grab him and do a huge combo rather than edgeguard the way you're doing it if you want to be lazy during the reaction step. But the d-smashes can work... you just need to be more accurate. I dunno.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Up tilt is the way to protect yourself while Nana is blizzarding vs. Falcon

Ftilt is much safer than SH nair for stuffing SH baits

Chase down with dsmash works if he doesn't jump, you need to stuff his jumps with wd utilt
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
hm thanks kk great observations!

i remember after thinking after the set "i was only playing at 75%" so i think that's why i was reverting to dumb blizzard habits. i wasn't watching carefully. i know that vs jeff i just need to really observe what he's doing because he is so unusual.

i think when i get cornered i just need to wait patiently for the right escape. full hops and rolls are not completely safe but both viable as long as they're used with the right timing.

i'll find some more people to play too, i noticed that my punishes are bad/mediocre now since i don't play as much.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
grim mentioned stuffing his jumps with wd utilt, i was doing wd fsmash yesterday and it seems that with good timing that can lead to gimps/ egdeguard opportunities. i won 2 games cause of wd fsmash to legderoll edgehod. i know that the falcon i was fighting was pretty scrubby since he does not main him. i think with good timing the fsmash can take falcon right out of his shorthop, and falcon needs to delay the start of the knee to sweetspot. that could give u enough time to punish him for sh
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
Neither of them are very safe. Utilt comes out quickly, but doesn't cover a lot of space, and getting directly under a decent Falcon is hard.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
If someone tried to knee me out of a blizzard, I would just get out of the way and try to punish the landing lag. It doesn't really matter if he hits Nana with a stomp or something as long as he doesn't hit both of you. The way SS kept jumping over it, blizzard -> fulljump n-air could have worked (the reward is less though).

Also, I don't think trying to stuff his jumps is a good idea unless he's near the ledge. Otherwise you risk throwing out a laggy move while he just dds around it. I mostly focus on forcing him into awkward situations/landings that I can punish. Retreating b-air is safe if he's approaching you with sh aerials, and sh u-air is usually safe if he's approaching from a fulljump/platform.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
i dont think utilt is that safe, but exploring it furthur today i noticed uptilt seemed to be something i would mix into my wd approaches only near the centre of most maps. i am really liking the wd back pivot ftilt desync
edit sh uair is too good
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
what is this: wd back pivot ftilt?

earlier nintendo dude mentioned ftilt desynch but i assumed you just wd back and then ftilt before nana gets back to make only pp ftilt...
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
If you do a pivot ftilt (I do it by holding the control stick about halfway between centre and fully behind me and pressing A) then Popo will Ftilt in one direction and Nana in the other.

This desyncs you and is the easiest fast desync.
 

n1n10do

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
53
Location
Mount Vernon, Ny
I only use Ice Climbers when i'm in Doubles. but i want to get good with them so i can have them as an official main. can someone give me some tips/advice ? i know about the infinite Chaingrab but i can only get up to like 80%. What am i doing wrong ?
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
so basically you're saying wd back dash pivot ftilt...i was thinking maybe you just turned around in the wd, but you have to actually dash and pivot...k thanks for the info
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
You don't have to dash; you can pivot from standing. Breaking down the phrase "WD Back Pivot Ftilt" is just:

1. Jump
2. Air Dodge diagonally down
3. Ftilt behind you without turning around first by lightly tilting the stick (easier than pivoting, then ftilting)
4. Both ICs ftilt in opposite directions, Nana is desynced
5. Ice block/blizzard/charge smash
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
What he means is it's a turnaround, not a pivot. Pivot is where you dash in one direction and flick the control stick in the other direction (to return to standing).

Pivot f-tilt is another way to desynch them, but it's a lot harder and causes Nana to dash attack.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
how do i get around fsmash spamming marth? i know i can get a grab after they whiff it but what if i wd into them into them and shield? which shield should i be using? can i get a wd jcgrab oos or is it really tight timing?
also i have been using pivot ftilt nana blizzard like nintendude said and it is soo fast and much safer to get nana to blizzard than spotdodge roll and should be mixed with dd blizzard with popo waiting
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
how do i get around fsmash spamming marth? i know i can get a grab after they whiff it but what if i wd into them into them and shield? which shield should i be using? can i get a wd jcgrab oos or is it really tight timing?
also i have been using pivot ftilt nana blizzard like nintendude said and it is soo fast and much safer to get nana to blizzard than spotdodge roll and should be mixed with dd blizzard with popo waiting
If they hit your shield with a fsmash and it doesnt tipper you can wavedash grab, you can force marth to approach by using iceblocks and blizzards since he doesnt have a projectile, forcing them to use other moves.

The best way is just wait for it and punish it, if they stop throwing it out then you can do other things.

---------

I'm having trouble vs Sheik, when she hits my shield I don't know when its safe to go for grabs or which defensive options I should take.

Also I have a really tough time edgeguarding here at certain spacings because of I try to roll up I still get hit by her up b as she goes for the stage, should I just not grab the ledge vs her unless I knock her very far out?
 
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